Air Force Changes Admission Requirements

[Over the Horn]

I think the last bombs that were dropped by the Canadian Forces were on the Yellowknife golf course rotflmao!!! but seriosly why did the guy in the CF-18 eject when he bounced the landing last year in Yellowknife is that the kind of decision making that comes with a 4 year degree or the fact that they quit flying floats because it took them 20min to dock a twotter using a 3 man crew because the pilot wasn't allowed to stick his head out the window . oh well I guess thats what this country gets for electing a Liberal goverment I'm not sure any of us would do better in the shoe's of those guys dealing with cutbacks and the bloated burocracy that is our mighty millitary, 4 year degree or not! I can only hope the people of Ontario (aka the center of the universe) wake up and vote for the Conservatives

[Hun IN the SUN]

WOOOHH hold up

he ejected cause why? I never heard that part

although yes I hope the Conservatives get in, But it does suck that ontario controls the way the vote goes.

[CH124 Driver]

I'd have to say I would have done the same. In an aircraft like the Hornet, or Hawk or even the Harvard, you've got a much better chance of egressing the aircraft by ejecting than you do by riding out the "crash". Here's what Flight Safety had to say about it. http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/dfs/do ... 8761_e.asp

A Hawk in Moose Jaw landed gear up a couple years ago (Hungarian dude so don't even make the degree crack on that one!), the guy stayed in the aircraft even as it slid into the infield. Had the jet caught a wing tip, cart wheeled and ended up inverted and on fire, he would have been unable to egress the aircraft given the way the canopy is designed, or so we were instructed.

[Localizer]

Your telling me flying an 18 for what?? 40-60 hours a year would full-fill your life?!?!?! .. Everyone thinks the 172 is amazing when they first start out .. then your first piston twin .. what could be better! .. then your first turbo-prop job! Wooohooo!! almost at the top .. then .. the first jet job! .. its all you dreamed it would be .. but in the end, its all the same .. the thrill is nothing more than a dull roar .. it becomes .. a job .. and all you look forward to is your pay-cheque and days off .. so .. if you think that the 18 would/will be any different?!?! .. I don't think so .. it would be fun for a while .. but then it would just become a job ..

[bizjet_mania]

everyone does it for the love of it, until they have a family and bills then the love and excitement dies down and its about $$$. Just look at the guys on pprune complaining about their $10,000 a month paycheck.

[TheCheez]

Your telling me flying an 18 for what?? 40-60 hours a year would full-fill your life?!?!?! .. Everyone thinks the 172 is amazing when they first start out .. then your first piston twin .. what could be better! .. then your first turbo-prop job! Wooohooo!! almost at the top .. then .. the first jet job! .. its all you dreamed it would be .. but in the end, its all the same .. the thrill is nothing more than a dull roar .. it becomes .. a job .. and all you look forward to is your pay-cheque and days off .. so .. if you think that the 18 would/will be any different?!?! .. I don't think so .. it would be fun for a while .. but then it would just become a job ..

I have not met an 18 pilot that didn't love his job and look forward to every flight. Maybe it's different when you go up and dogfight your buddies for an hour vs hitting autopilot and hauling drunks around the north. Every March you can see how much they've been looking forward to holidays when the boss forces everyone to burn the rest of their leave.

Also average hours on the 18 is around 180-200/yr, not 40-60.

As for the guy in Yellowknife. When y'all get qualified to fly the 18 and get current on the SOPs for that A/C then maybe your opinion on that incident might matter. If the guy hadn't ejected and the situation turned into a big fireball tearing down the runway you'd all be sitting there saying, "well he's got the system why didn't he eject? What an idiot for destroying our plane."

Dont believe everything you see in the news. I'm sure everyone here has seen them butcher a civil aviation story it's no different on the military side. If any of you have any serious questions about the CF feel free to PM or come for a visit.

[Localizer]

Don't we all do this for the love of it?? .. I don't think I need you to be telling me, people do this job for the love of it there pup! .. I've done my share of the northern ..-runs, with pax so drunk the smell would make me sick to my stomach. It takes love of the job to put of with crap like that .. not to mention the skinny paycheques ta boot!


As for the 18 .. Im skeptical about the 180-200 hrs a year, I don't really believe its that high. There is what? 30 airworthy 18's in Canada? So for the part about it being the "best job out there" .. and I didn't say this before but should have .. Do you think its going to be all glamour when you are actually called to fight? Could you sit in that cockpit and kill another human being? Someone who has a family back home just like you .. a civi-life with buddies back home? .. I doubt it .. Just remember those planes are built with one purpose .. not airshows .. but to kill .. Now I can't wait for all the tough talk to begin ..


Remember its V.E. week .. have you thanked a war vet for his sacrifice?

[costermonger]

Unless the four operational CF-18 squadrons have lost half their aircraft in the last 5 years, there are ~60 in operational service. About 20 more belong to 410 Squadron, the training squadron, and the remaining are in storage or maintenance. Maybe looking something up would help make your point, Localizer, that is if you have one. Or you could just stick with your initial misconceptions regardless of the facts. Your choice.

[. .]

After say 10yrs in the airforce, if you were given the CF-18 what would someones total time look like? I realize that 10yrs in the airforce doesn't equal 10years flying. Just wondering exactly how much you would average over a 10yr period.

[Expat]

Eh,...
We're comparing apples and oranges, here. It's like the cement truck driver telling Schumacher that he was not lucky because he only drove a few hours a week!
As far as putting down the CAF, you must remember that there is no place in there for the career co-pilots. The structure is a pyramid. And for those who stop flying, for any reason, are ejected from it and use their degrees to continue their careers. The military is a career first, so that if something happens to your medical, you're not out in the cold. You could end up in a recruitment center, or the NATO Headquarters, or Project Officer in a large procurement program. All that with the same rank and pay as before, less the flying allowance.
Some of you should be very thankful that we only have a small Air force. Think about it ...In Russia,or many other countries , my friends, there are no flight schools. If you can't make the cut in the military... forget it, you'll never fly! Period
In Canada, the military provides just a tiny fraction of the pilot supply, and you can fly with glasses, etc.
As far as the quality is concerned, I will always bet on the fast learner, and in the military you have to learn fast. I'm not sure of the requirements now, but you could be a Snowbird pilot while your civvy buddy with the same hours is still doing fire patrols in a C-182.
As far as the screening results are concerned, I will give you an example. When the weather goes to sh*t here the company pilots formed by flight schools are on the ground, because there are no navaids but the military and ex-soviet guys are still flying.
As far as the degree is concerned, if you can't find the courage or tenacity to get one, it shows your lack willingness to learn or lack of intellectual capacity, and is not a good sign...
Cheers,

[Vickers vanguard]

CH 124 driver,

I haven't looked at the airforce report on that CF18 landing incident yet, but I will. However, I was really surprised to see footage of the airplane in almost perfect shape, sitting on its gear ( I think the nose gear was in the mud or something......)...without the pilot's seat....after hearing news of a landing overun and a pilot ejecting from the A/C. I don't have any expertise with military jets, but that seems like a bad judgment to me !

[Hot Fuel]

It appears to me that many of the posts in this string are coming from the angle that the degree requirement is an obstacle that they feel is unnecessary and also preventing them from “getting the job”. It seems many of you feel that a flying position in the Canadian Armed Forces is a means to an end, a stepping stone to the airlines. I think you will find they are in fact looking for career pilots. The degree requirement probably weeds out many of the folks looking to use them as a launch platform because they are not willing to make the educational commitment never mind the military commitment. The type of people they are looking for don’t expect an affluent lifestyle flying military aircraft; they are looking for those that find a military lifestyle appealing. They want people that take the position that they are serving their country not looking for the best possible job in aviation. If you view flying military aircraft as an entry level flying position or way to get a start in aviation you are getting into the military for all the wrong reasons.

[YYC the place to be]

I feel that my CPL and multi IFR are a bigger deal that a 4 year university degree. I have already spent what I would on my CPL an Multi IFR that my buddies spent on university. Say what you want but, this is what i think.

[CH124 Driver]

CH 124 driver,

I haven't looked at the airforce report on that CF18 landing incident yet, but I will. However, I was really surprised to see footage of the airplane in almost perfect shape, sitting on its gear ( I think the nose gear was in the mud or something......)...without the pilot's seat....after hearing news of a landing overun and a pilot ejecting from the A/C. I don't have any expertise with military jets, but that seems like a bad judgment to me !

The report says that he rotated through 300 degrees, if I ended up going backwards down the runway in an aircraft that was never designed to go backwards under it's own power, I'm punching out. It could have just as easily had the gear collapse, catch a wing tip, flip and explode.

I have 97 hours flying ejection seat aircraft, all on the Harvard II as well as a show practice motivex in a Tutor with the Snowbirds. I'll tell you up front, when you've got an ejection seat, you're taught that you're more important than the aircraft so use the seat if you feel you need to. We only ever did Practice Forced Landings to the airport, in fact, only at CYMJ. So, you're out in the training area, if you have an engine failure and you're not high enough to make High Key back in Moose Jaw, well, you're going for a parachute ride. The aircraft can be replaced, you can't.

[TheCheez]

So for the part about it being the "best job out there" .. and I didn't say this before but should have .. Do you think its going to be all glamour when you are actually called to fight? Could you sit in that cockpit and kill another human being? Someone who has a family back home just like you .. a civi-life with buddies back home? .. I doubt it .. Just remember those planes are built with one purpose .. not airshows .. but to kill .. Now I can't wait for all the tough talk to begin ..


Remember its V.E. week .. have you thanked a war vet for his sacrifice?

I speak with 2 vets all the time, they're my grandfathers.

What makes you think my morals are yours or the boards business at all or that I should come on and justify them to you, no matter what they are?

Hot Fuel has it about right. The military isnt a stepping stone between flight instructor and air canada, if thats what you're after civie street will get you there faster if you get the right jobs/people.

[Quagmire]

Most of the Luftwaffes top aces did not have university education and they where by far the highest scoring pilots in history. Adolf Galland was pretty much blind in one eye and yet he shot down over 100 enemy aircraft on the western front.

My friend joined up over 1.5 years ago, it took a year for him to get into officer training. He is in a desk job in Trenton waiting for a position in flight training to open up.

It would a different story if they took only people with aeronautical engineers or computer engineers, but I mean really what does a degree in modern art teach you about shooting down an enemy aircraft? I mean seriosly.

[CH124 Driver]

Most of the Luftwaffes top aces did not have university education and they where by far the highest scoring pilots in history. Adolf Galland was pretty much blind in one eye and yet he shot down over 100 enemy aircraft on the western front.

My friend joined up over 1.5 years ago, it took a year for him to get into officer training. He is in a desk job in Trenton waiting for a position in flight training to open up.

It would a different story if they took only people with aeronautical engineers or computer engineers, but I mean really what does a degree in modern art teach you about shooting down an enemy aircraft? I mean seriosly.

Wow, that's brilliant, because nothing has changed in the last 60 years right? Oh wait, I know what's changed, we don't crash a dozen aircraft every week, I guess education hasn't helped in that respect at all eh? Not to mention that aircraft fly farther, faster and carry more weapons than they ever did in WWII. He'd probably be like a dog watching TV if you were to take Mr Galland and put him in a modern jet. Sorry, but your comparisons to pilot requirements in a war that started over 60 years ago before colour TV and satellites were invented just doesn't hold water.

[bizjet_mania]

From what I understand, air force pilots don't have their licenses. The fly without it. They only get the license once they leave the air force.

[DareDevil]

I gotta say I don't agree with the 4-Yr Diploma requirement. I have 2 post secondary diplomas (not a degree) on top of my pilot qualifications! And the forces wants to tell me that I'm not good enough to fly for them....I spent all my money from loans to get my pilot stuff plus my other education as opposed to spending X amount more on a university degree in basket weaving! If they are looking for dedication, lets see those high paid politicians make $7 an hour working a ramp job for 2 years befor they even touch an airplane! Maybe they should rethink their entry requirements and get some butts in the seats of the aircraft we have and maybe we'll have some inspired people instead of bitter ones! I can understand a post secondary education but even . Yeager never went to college! No wonder we lose pilots outta the country!

[CH124 Driver]

From what I understand, air force pilots don't have their licenses. The fly without it. They only get the license once they leave the air force.

True, but we can only fly military aircraft and at that, only ones we're qualified on. Our wings are our license. We don't have all encompassing privileges like "all single pilot......" I'm only qualified to fly the Sea King, nothing else. It is possible to be qualified on more than one type, but that requires an APC on each type. Some guys in Moose Jaw maintain their quals on the Hawks and the Harvards.

We also do IRTs every year to maintain our IFR ratings and there's currency restrictions as well. In addition, our IRTs are only valid for the type we're qualified to fly, ie I hold a Sea King IFR ticket, I can't file IFR in any other aircraft except the Sea King.

[I_Drive_Planes]

But even . Yeager never went to college! No wonder we lose pilots outta the country!

And thats why . Yeager, even with all of his experience, qualifications, and years in the airforce, even though he was extremely high-profile only ever made Brigadier-General in his career. The point that I think that a lot are missing (and it has been mentioned) is that when you join the military, as a pilot, you are an officer FIRST, a pilot second. You are required to be a leader, and that requires a higher level of education. In civillian corporations how many middle to upper management positions do you see that don't require a degree of some sort? At one time (world war 2 for example) non-comissioned people (i.e. Sergeants, etc.) could fly, and in Army Air Dvisisons such as in the US and the UK non-comissioned people still fly helicopters. However these pilots only fly, and do not have the same leadership roles that we require of our officers. Because our forces are so small we cannot afford to have "one trick ponies", and your entire career as a forces pilot may not be in a flying role.

As a sidenote I do not believe that requiring a Baccalaureate degree is the best approach to achieving a better educated officer corps, I feel that there are better, more military oriented achieve this.

As I was writing this my recruiting officer called and said that I am waitlisted for the Regular Officer Training Plan, arghhhh more waiting, at least I'm not out of the running yet.

Planes

[bizjet_mania]

But even . Yeager never went to college! No wonder we lose pilots outta the country!

And thats why . Yeager, even with all of his experience, qualifications, and years in the airforce, even though he was extremely high-profile only ever made Brigadier-General in his career. The point that I think that a lot are missing (and it has been mentioned) is that when you join the military, as a pilot, you are an officer FIRST, a pilot second. You are required to be a leader, and that requires a higher level of education. In civillian corporations how many middle to upper management positions do you see that don't require a degree of some sort? At one time (world war 2 for example) non-comissioned people (i.e. Sergeants, etc.) could fly, and in Army Air Dvisisons such as in the US and the UK non-comissioned people still fly helicopters. However these pilots only fly, and do not have the same leadership roles that we require of our officers. Because our forces are so small we cannot afford to have "one trick ponies", and your entire career as a forces pilot may not be in a flying role.

As a sidenote I do not believe that requiring a Baccalaureate degree is the best approach to achieving a better educated officer corps, I feel that there are better, more military oriented achieve this.

As I was writing this my recruiting officer called and said that I am waitlisted for the Regular Officer Training Plan, arghhhh more waiting, at least I'm not out of the running yet.

Planes

I think we are talking about a different era. Especially the flying he was doing. It really required more balls than brains.

But you are right be do lose alot of pilots, only a third off our guys are still hanging around.

[groundpilot]

I still dont understand this continual bitterness towards the Canadian Forces (CF) because they require a university education.

ALL officers in the CF require a univ degree. No kidding it doesnt take a degree to fly a plane in the military. There a few right now in the military that have served and excelled without degrees, some even being snowbirds. But the fact is in NATO, nations require officers to have a degree. It can be a Arts degree, engineering degree, it doesnt matter.

According to some of you we should not require a degree and be the only nation openly accepting pilot candidates without degrees. And then, since all other military occupations in the CF require degrees, pilots should be the least educated officers!

If your just looking for a flying job, stay on civvie street. Have fun looking for a job, getting paid jack, and paying to fly. If you want to serve your country, SAVE lives (Search and Rescue helo's and Buffalo's dont KILL people there smarty pants) and get PAID WELL to learn to fly then join the CF. And yes you won't fly as much but at least you can go home every night knowing your doing something for your country and will have a job in the morning.

[. .]

anyone want to take some time out and answer my pretty non-threatening question?

[Localizer]

Facts? You want me to give you facts? Sure I can do that .. Canada (Liberals) doesn't spend any of its cash on the military .. (just enough to get votes) ..

Facts:
92 Operational CF-18's in Canada
80 are getting upgrades (about time) this will keep the fleet "modern" for the next 15 years .. ummm sure? ..
The Hornet made its first flight Nov. 18/1978 .. its 27 years old ..
Are 92 "operational" (term used loosely) Hornets enough to defend our country? No
Does the Hornet compare to the new fighters of today? Obviously not ..

Are those enough facts? .. or would you like more? .. the source for that information was from DND .. incase someone was planning to say "the news is always wrong"

TheCheez .. I dunno what your going on about .. Your morals don't mean a thing to me .. FYI .. I was asking you to ask yourself that question .. But .. if you think your "that guy" .. super .. good for you? .. I guess someone has to do the job .. ?!?!

So .. a lot of this is sorta off topic .. sticking to point .. a degree and the military .. does it really "make the man" .. nobody's arguments have persuaded me to think other-wise. The comment about a degree helping an officer make a better tactical decision, or something like that .. make me puke! .. If you don't need a degree to be a 744 Capt, why do you think you'd need one to be an 18, 130, 140, 330, 604 pilot .. easy .. cuz you don't .. why do you have to have it? .. because the government of Canada doesn't want to give a commission to an "uneducated" person .. (uh uneducated people .. damn heathens!) If you don't believe that .. or think im out to lunch .. ok .. find out for yourself .. send a letter to your mp .. (or maybe you can email them now-a-days)

this topic is getting boring .. im out ..