Alberta taildragger

[Rodriguez Mountinous]

Hey all;

I'm looking around to buy a yet-to-be determined taildragger for rough and off-strip flying.
Anyone know of anyone who actually offers tailwheel training in Alberta? Or, as my sinking feeling would suggest, you pretty much have to find someone to teach you on your own aircraft...?


thanks

Rodriguez Mount-eye-nous

[Beefitarian]

This guy might know.
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=22897
He's involved in acrobatics in Rocky Mountain House. I suspect there's a bunch of other training there too. Let us know what you find I'm curious about it and it seems to be tougher to find now. Back in the 90s there was a guy teaching at YBW with one arm, honest he did aerobatics also in a citabria.

You could try to get ahold of cu-nim the gliding club. The require you to get tail wheel time to fly throttle plane. They must know where to find training.

[robertsailor1]

Try looking under Aerobatics when your shopping different FBO's. Often they will have a Citabria or Decathlon that you can get tail wheel training. What part of Alberta?

[5x5]

Try the Namao Flying Club at Villeneuve (CZVL) near Edmonton. The have a Citabria 7ECA which is a relatively gentle taildragger to learn on. Not sure who they have teaching there right now, but ask if James is available, lots of experience and a good guy.

[shamrock104]

PM me for details of a guy just across the border, relatively cheap and worth the 3 hr drive.

[ArcticKat]

Try Daryl Lowey in Didsbury

www.livingskyaerobatics.com

[AEROBAT]

I would think it would be wise to buy the plane you want first and then get a person to give you some dual.

If you got checked out in a champ or citabria and end up buying a Maul or a 170 or 180 for example your insurance company will probably ask you to get dual in an airplane identical to the one you want to insure.

It doesn't have to be an instructor checking you out either. Anyone with a commercial licence and time on the type of plane you are buying will do.

[robertsailor1]

I'm with Aerobat...if you are serious about buying then the concept of buying first and then getting checked out is a good one and better and cheaper. If your just wanting some tail wheel time to see if its up your alley then some of the other choices are fine. Good luck, you'll never go wrong with a little Champ, Cub, Luscombe, T-Craft etc. wonderful time builders, cheap to fly and you'll be a better pilot once you've mastered them.

[Rodriguez Mountinous]

After reading the responses, all of which I appreciate, I'm a little bit torn. I am very serious about the idea of owning something like a Cub or Stinson etc and I'm very excited just to get a few hours on a taildragger before I jump in with both feet, but I hear what you're saying about waiting to fly my own. Definitely an exciting prospect, I've always wanted to get in to this type of flying.

Also, anyone flown something similar to a Cub/Stinson/Citabria etc on floats? Are they powerful enough to be fun as long as the weight is kept down? Always something I've been interested in, and I love flying on floats, but a decent C180 or C185 is just a little more money than I am prepared to spend at the moment.

Thanks, and again I appreciate the responses.

Rodriguez Mountinous

[robertsailor1]

To begin with there's quite a difference between a Stinson and a Cub whether on wheels or floats. Depending on your budget you might want to look at something like a Champ with an 85 or 90hp engine on floats. If your budget is larger then consider a 150 hp Citabria on floats. The Super Cubs are nice machines but they have too much of a following so you can get a 180 Cessna for almost the same money and I'm assuming either would not be in your price range.
If I knew your budget and what you really wanted to do with your float plane I'm sure I could give you some helpful advise

[Rodriguez Mountinous]

My budget probably caps at around $50,000-$60,000. I know the SuperCub is pretty much a no-go, just daydreaming. I've heard lots of good things about the Citabria. Any advice would be appreciated. The more power the better. Being in Alberta, the majority of the fields I fly from are usually around the 4000' range. I'm not too picky wether it has 2,3 or 4 seats. I'm more focused on performance and the ability to get in to tight areas utilizing better STOL qualities, rather than how many people and luggage I can bring with me.

[robertsailor1]

The Citabria to look for is the model 7GCBC. It has a 3 foot wingspan edge on the other models as well as flaps and a 150 hp Lycoming. It is close behind the Super Cub in performance, not quite there but faster and more comfy. You can still do aerobatics in it but its not as good as the shorter wing models. Makes a great 2 place and gear. It works well on Edo 2000 floats and skis. You should be able to shop in your budget.

If its just wheels and skis I like the 4 place PA-20 Pacer, these can be had for anywhere around $25,000 and up and shop for the 0-320 Lycoming 150 hp engine, one of the best engines ever built. Not that great on floats with the shorter wings.

Stinsons are nice flying and roomy but they have either the 150 or the 165 Franklin and its going to get harder to find parts for that engine.

Cessna 170's or 172's with the stock engine are pretty weak on floats other than right at sea level with a light load.

Google is your friend look some of these up. When your operating at 4000 feet you must be around Calgary somewhere which is not exactly float country as I recall...where are the lakes around there?

[TeePeeCreeper]

I love flying on floats, but a decent C180 or C185 is just a little more money than I am prepared to spend at the moment.

Thanks, and again I appreciate the responses.

Rodriguez Mountinous

You stated a budget of 40 to 50K right?
For that kind of money you should be able to find a share in a very nice 180/185...

[System Message]

Owning all of a citabria is better than half a 180. If you need a 180 you are still better off with a citabria and a friend with another citabria.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Owning all of a citabria is better than half a 180. If you need a 180 you are still better off with a citabria and a friend with another citabria.

You either have a hard on for Citabrias or have had a bad partnership expirience in the past to make such a comment...
When annuals, insurance, upgrades, etc, are due my wallet certainly enjoys having those costs split up! I can assure you that my costs in a fractional ownership on a 180/185 are less than the costs would be if I solely owned a Citabria... Oh and I can carry a couple of friends, a few cases of two fours, some patio stones and gear as well... Ummmm makes a guy wonder dosen't it?

Regards,
TPC

[System Message]

The 180 is a great plane for an individual to carry a good load and go pretty fast. I would not recommend one to a new tailwheel pilot to learn offstrip flying with. A partnership can sour pretty fast when one partner bends the plane and neither can fly for a year or neither partner can do the type of flying they bought it for out of fear of damaging it.
A supercub will outperform a citabria on short strips at twice the cost. If you do bend one the cub will by far be the easiest to get fixed.
I still think it would cost more than double to operate a 180 than most 150hp two seat aircraft.

[Rodriguez Mountinous]

Most of the flying I've done has been in a C182 and a C180 on floats, so naturally I like Cessna aircraft very much. However the cost of owning a C180 is just too much, especially compared with something like a Citabria. A share in an aircraft would've been a viable option, however I move around a fair amount so I pretty much need to have sole ownership of the aircraft. I see no point in owning a plane that isn't in the same locale I am, and I could see myself becoming frustrated by having to work out a time-table with fellow owner(s).

So with all the responses, and after doing some research, I am leaning towards the Citabria. I assume there are many STCs for the Citabria (STOL etc)? Do any of the higher powered versions use constant speed props or is a fixed the way to go?

[robertsailor1]

I think fixed is the way to go. Pretty hard to justify a constant speed on a slower aircraft like a Citabria even if there was a STC which I don't think there is. Use a climb prop when your on floats.

[robertsailor1]

I should add that they make a 180 version called the Scout but thats way up there in price so I didn't bother to mention it. I think that one may come with a constant speed

[AEROBAT]

Rodiguez

If you are looking at a Citabria be sure to check the spars for cracks, if it has the wood spars. It is easy to do. Actually to be safe, get an AME who is familiar with the Citabria to do a pre-purchase.

There is a popular homebuilt called the Christavia that was designed for what you have in mind.

[Rodriguez Mountinous]

The Scout is definitely a cool plane, but yes it's a little out of my price range haha.

I will definitely be getting an AME to do a pre-purchase before I put money down on anything. Been burnt on enough cars to have learnt my lesson about that! I've heard a little about issues with the wood spars before. Is it very common on the Citabrias that have them?

Thanks for brining the Christavia to my attention, I wasn't aware they existed. Do you know of any good resources of information on them? I did a quick google search, but couldn't find much more than a simple paragraph or two. Did the Mk-1, Mk-2 and Mk-4 all utilize the same engine, or does the Mk-4 have something more powerful?

Thanks again for the responses, this is definitely helping me narrow down my choices.

[robertsailor1]

Yes there was a spar AD calling for inspections of the spar. The area in the spar that they are really watching is right around where the lift strut supports the spar. The earlier and lighter Champs, Chiefs have had very few problems because of the lighter wing loading and small engines but the odd one had been ground looped and cracked a spar and sometimes the repairs were never logged and they were hit by the same AD.

There have been very few spar failures considering the number of aircraft but in this business one is too many and they did find a small number with cracked spars that were replaced.
The 7GCBC model was very seldom used for aerobatics so my guess is you are unlikely to find very few of this model with cracked spars unless like its earlier contemporaries it was damaged in a ground loop.

Later models changed to aluminum spars and there is no AD on them. Some of the earlier models had the spars changed to aluminum when they were recovered.

Personally I have zero issues with wood spars as long as the aircraft has been looked after but some of those Citabria's were really abused by aerobatics that exceeded their design. If it has had a proper inspection I wouldn't give it a further thought. It might even help you cut a better deal. Good luck in your search.

[Grantmac]

A PA-20 with VGs and higher performance wingtips (get the Sullivan STC, it gets you an extra 10" of wing a side) makes for a great backcountry plane. I've seen one win the local STOL contest in the 4-seater category for the last several years. They've got a lot more room then a Citabria, just take out the back seat and enjoy a cargo area you can fit a decent sized ice-chest into along with all your camping gear.
Best bet is to find one in the US that is all set-up for what you want to do. They come-up fairly often on barnstormers.

Otherwise you could look at an older Maule, they have a pretty decent following although I don't have any personal experience with them.

-Grant

[robertsailor1]

Well as I mentioned in my post I like the PA-20, having owned a couple but even with the little wing extensions they are not great on floats, wheels yes, skis yes, floats so so and at 4000 feet you need wing, lots of it. No question though they are great little planes.

[Baseballfan]

Check out James Hrymack at the Besano aerodrome. Retired military pilot; Class 1 Aerobatic Instructor; super experienced pilot; all around nice guy: jameshyrmack@hotmail.com. He has several taildragger machines available for checkout, training and aerobatic training.