North Cariboo PPC'd Be200 pilots

[Doc]

Okay, I'm not too crazy about seeing this kind of ad. Ads like this are partly to blame for my pet peeve: The training BOND.
NCA is a pretty desirable company to work for. Looking for guys that are already PPC'd is like hanging a slab of raw meat out for a hungry bear.
Then when a pilot takes the "bait" he's labeled "scumbag" because he tried to "better" himself by taking a better job with a better company.
NCA....you have more class than that. Sure, you'd be stupid NOT to prefer experienced pilots, but don't put it in your ads.
D

[P180]

Okay, I'm not too crazy about seeing this kind of ad. Ads like this are partly to blame for my pet peeve: The training BOND.
NCA is a pretty desirable company to work for. Looking for guys that are already PPC'd is like hanging a slab of raw meat out for a hungry bear.
Then when a pilot takes the "bait" he's labeled "scumbag" because he tried to "better" himself by taking a better job with a better company.
NCA....you have more class than that. Sure, you'd be stupid NOT to prefer experienced pilots, but don't put it in your ads.
D

Well don,t apply.They can do what they want and they have..

[whiteguy]

Contrail and customer requirements!

[JAG]

Contrail and customer requirements!

Really? Contrails and customers now require a pilot to be PPC'd prior to hiring?

[whiteguy]

Contrail and customer requirements!

Really? Contrails and customers now require a pilot to be PPC'd prior to hiring?

Both require 100 hrs on type. Odds are, someone with a ppc would have that!

[Doc]

Contrail and customer requirements!

Really? Contrails and customers now require a pilot to be PPC'd prior to hiring?

Both require 100 hrs on type. Odds are, someone with a ppc would have that!

whiteguy...you'er trying to defend a really piss poor hiring policy, and you probably know it. Fact, you could have 5000 hours PIC on a Be20, and not necessarily be PPC'd or current on it.

[whiteguy]

Not defending anything, just throwing out some ideas as to why......

Carry on.....see ya!

[iflyforpie]

All in favour of non-tranferrable PPCs, say aye.....

[Dagwood]

Aye!

[Doc]

All in favour of abolishing PPC's altogether, say AYE!!
I mean really, what's the point? CP or training capt says you're good to go....you're good to go. They (rides) don't really mean much. You can suck form day to day and ace a ride, or you can suck on a ride, and fly perfectly fine from day to day. It's just TC trying to hold on to some perceived control over the industry, when we've know for years they haven't got a clue.

[Les Habitants]

All in favour of abolishing PPC's altogether, say AYE!!
I mean really, what's the point? CP or training capt says you're good to go....you're good to go. They (rides) don't really mean much. You can suck form day to day and ace a ride, or you can suck on a ride, and fly perfectly fine from day to day. It's just TC trying to hold on to some perceived control over the industry, when we've know for years they haven't got a clue.

Interesting point....

At the very least, a big AYE AYE AYE AYE AYE to non transferable PPCs.

Also a big AYE AYE AYE AYE to no training bonds! Which are actually against the labor code in Canada anyway....

[Brantford Beech Boy]

...I mean really, what's the point? CP or training capt says you're good to go....you're good to go. They (rides) don't really mean much...

As was explained to me several years ago....

The PPC, although a 'test' of the individual, really isn't about the individual pilot.
The PPC ride is a validation of the training that that crew member has received.
Doc, you are most likley old enough to remember when initial training consisted of a few rides in the right seat, watching how it's done and then being launched off the deep end with the cement shoes..."sink or swim time kid". The only problem is that your fine if you swim but if you sink, you're probably gonna take a few people with you...not kosher. Hence the Grand Exhalted Regulator decided to mandate minimum training requirements to ensure pilots could resonably be expected to perform thier job to a "standard" and not kill people.
Kinda like how the schools make our kids take tests at the end of the year...to make sure the teacher did thier job and material was absorbed...

Don't know about your company, but at mine, the PPC rides are also used as feedback mechanisms for our training department. Say we notice that we get a lot of pilots getting 2 or 1 on a specific item, then we can, as the training department, can look at the way that item is trained, tweak the syllabus, place some emphasis on it....etc etc.

but then again, whadda I know. I'm just a stoopid driver....

and I'll give you the "transferable PPC"...given the variety of flavour amongst the SOPs I've witnessed, it just makes sense to have the PPC company specific

BBB

[flying4dollars]

and I'll give you the "transferable PPC"...given the variety of flavour amongst the SOPs I've witnessed, it just makes sense to have the PPC company specific

BBB

Assuming I'm understanding that you agree that PPC's should not be transferable, that's what line indoc is for. Let a guy come in with a ticket on type. He'll learn the SOP's prior to flying online, and he'll master them (in theory) during line indoc.

That's just my point of view

[Doc]

BBB, so it's kind of like a Doctor, removing an appendix on an annual basis, under the watchful eye of the Chief Surgeon, just to prove he has completed his "recurrent" training?
Do other industries annually test their employees on their performance? I doubt that.
That said, I can see the relevance of the "initial" PPC. After that, it's swinging at windmills.
Any deficiencies with your training department will show up during regular annual training, I don't see the point of "testing" an individual on what he/she has been doing all year.
Cheers

[Brantford Beech Boy]

I don't have any numbers on medical malpractice (and I'm too lazy to look it up) but maybe some form of annual review for Drs wouldn't be such a bad idea?

As far as other industries, perhaps they are not "tested", but other industries certainly do perform employee reviews or performance evaluations on an annual basis. Can be just as stressful as PPCs as usually raises or other advancements are associated with these annual checks.

and as far as training dept go (and not just the one I'm currently a part of), trainers don't normally report back to the CP on how they did a crappy job of training a candidate and as there can be several ways to accomplish a task, trainers can put a "spin" on given techniques based on personal experiences which may or may not be appropriate. Nor will the candidate report to the CP of any training deficiencies, they may not know any better. Aviation isn't known for it's efficient self reporting systems (SMS?), therefore the PPC allows for this feedback

A little constuctive criticism has never hurt anyone (except maybe thier ego)...

BBB

[Sunseeker]

Wow Brantford, if you think that a PPC is only a validation of training, you haven't been around this industry. Yes, the ACP manual tells us how the rides are to be conducted and other lofty principles are to be followed. Every PPC I've been in has been conducted to the standards in the manual. At the end of the day, however, they are all the same. (hmm, I'm on the end of the runway and the last takeoff was a reject, this must be the V1 cut). They are unrealistic. They dont test the right things (CRM). They are too condensed.
Last but not least I've seen far too often where they are turned into a bit of a hazing. I've also been privy to conversations in management where candidates are discussed as to their suitabilty based on their rides.
A simple validation of training? I dont think so.

[Wacko]

... what makes Cariboo such a desirable place to work? Is it a good captain type of place because I've talked to numerous FO's there and they all seem to move on because they never meet the contrail requirements to move to the left seat?

[Doc]

BBB, how about occasional "line" checks? Way more "real world" than PPC rides.

Sunseeker, you make a valid point, but BBB has been around for a while.

[Brantford Beech Boy]

We do line checks too, although not mandated for us yet (703/704)...
I agree that a well thought out and implemented line check system could replace the recurrent PPC requirements, I doubt the Regulator would buy that...or maybe they would? They did implement the LOFT rides in the 705 world....meh?

I still think the PPC is invaluable for the initial flight test/ride/check out...for reasons stated above...

and

Sunseeker,
I'm well familiar with the ACP manual. Perhaps more than you (?)....the rides I have been in, the ACP strives for realism but it is not always easily achieved and CRM is most definately taken into account.

and if you think I'm still naive, talk to the guys here...http://www.phoenixaviation.ca/
they are the ones filling my noggin with these wild and crazy ideas about why we do PPCs........

BBB

[Doc]

BBB, LOFT is really the way to go.
Had an interesting thing happen in Florida. Got talking to a couple of American student pilots working on their CPL's. After a few beers, it was decided that I would go with them and run LOFT scenarios. Hell, they paid me 100$ an hour back when 100$ USD was actually worth something. Ended up spending three months living in a rented sailboat and making a few bucks UTT.

[Brantford Beech Boy]

LOFT is really the way to go.

no argument there...
but (and there is always a but), in a sim. LOFT is somewhat wasted with the restrictions of being in an actual aircraft...IMHO..

Cheers
BBB