Tail wheel check out question.

[Cat Driver]

When checking out pilots that have never flown a tail wheel airplane what importance do you put on teaching wheel landings?

To lead on the answer to the above question I teach wheel landings first and consider the wheel landing to be the most important skill in landing a tail wheel airplane. ( Except for maybe one or two types that are difficult to wheel land. )

[Adam Oke]

I think that theory should be stressed prior to even setting foot in the aircraft. Primary focus being angle of attack and gyros. If they have a grasp on theory it will make for a much better understanding of what is happening when the aircraft wants to seek corn or wants to go flying again.

[AEROBAT]

I only ever taught tailwheel to one person. I did start out with 3 point landings but then after a few times I got him to touch down on one main and hold it on one wheel, for a 1000' feet or so keeping the tail up, and fly it off.

Then we went to wheel landings. He actually prefered wheelies to 3 pointers after a while.

[ctmorawetz]

I generally teach the wheel landing as a touch n' go first, then work towards full stops and then 3 point landings.

[AEROBAT]

Now that I reflect back on it we started out with slow flight, stalls [power on and power off] spiral dives, forward slips and side slips. Slow flight with full flaps and power leading into stalls.

It wasn't until about the third day until I let him tackle landing the plane. Mind you he was a low time pilot, and my son, so we took our time.

[robertsailor1]

I used to teach tail wheel and I always started with 3 point landings before teaching wheel landings. I was taught that way myself. Wheel landings are the only choice for aircraft like Beech 18's but most tail wheel aircraft land quite well 3 point and if the strip is rough or your off airport I much prefer 3 point landings. I like wheel landings in stronger winds and cross winds on paved strips but that is just me. I'm flying a little aerobatic bi-plane right now and I always 3 point it, fooled around with wheel landings for awhile but I find the 3 points easier and a little more predictable. Most guys I know with these little buggers 3 point them... keeps ones attention for sure.
On wheel landings I used to trim nose down and when I touched I just released the back pressure.
Interesting concept teaching wheel landings first, I can't really see anything wrong with it, may even make the transition to 3 point easier.

[Cat Driver]

My reason for teaching wheel landings first is to ensure they are able to judge height above the runway accurately so as to comfortably flare low and touch down in an attitude that will not result in a bounce due to either to high a sink rate at touch down or improper attitude at touch down.

How was that for a long sentance?

[AEROBAT]

I think a lot of people with high time on only trike geared airplanes instinctively avoid the wheel landing attitude, possibly subconsiously trying to avoid wheel barrowing that would have resulted in a trike.

[AEROBAT]

My reason for teaching wheel landings first is to ensure they are able to judge height above the runway accurately so as to comfortably flare low and touch down in an attitude that will not result in a bounce due to either to high a sink rate at touch down or improper attitude at touch down.

How was that for a long sentance?

That does make sense. If there is much of a x-wind wheelies, to me anyway, seem to be easier to control than a 3 pointer.

[Cat Driver]

I think a lot of people with high time on only trike geared airplanes instinctively avoid the wheel landing attitude, possibly subconsiously trying to avoid wheel barrowing that would have resulted in a trike.

Exactly, thus the art of flying conventional Gera airplanes becomes lost due to lack of experienced teachers.

Almost sixty years ago when I learned to fly we only had tail wheel trainers and the instructors understood the teaching methods.

Maybe someone should franchise a group of competent high time tail wheel pilots who only specialize in this area of flying?

[lownslow]

When I did my tailwheel checkout we started with a few hours of 3-pointers. At some point I asked my (very experienced and well respected) instructor about wheel landings and he said, "What's the point? You'll end up on three points anyways so landing with the tail high won't gain you anything." Maybe he was right, maybe not, but I think he understood I wasn't going to be out flying anything that demanded wheel landings. I later spent a few afternoons doing solo wheelies in a Cub but since I fly light airplanes in light winds I really have no use for them.

LnS.

[Cat Driver]

Why would anyone only teach half of the needed skills for landing a tail wheel airplane?

I wouldn't even think of turning out a new tail wheel pilot who did not fully understand how to land a tail wheel airplane, learning to wheel land is very important and it is just another part of flying.

I started this subject to see how many poorly trained tail wheel pilots there really are out there.

My personal opinion is those who do not teach wheel landings have problems either with teaching low flares or don't know how to them self.

[AEROBAT]

I was curious about the FAA take on the subject of wheel landings so I googled it. It is mandatory to do wheel landings for a taildragger check out unless the manufacturer recomends against it.

[photofly]

Cat Driver -

Respecting your great experience and many years as a pilot - I'd like to ask you if you think there any aspects of flight training that are done better now than 'back in the day'? Or is the business of teaching people to fly entirely inferior to how it used to be done?

[Cat Driver]

Cat Driver -

Respecting your great experience and many years as a pilot - I'd like to ask you if you think there any aspects of flight training that are done better now than 'back in the day'? Or is the business of teaching people to fly entirely inferior to how it used to be done?

I don't quite understand your question photofly, this discussion on basic flying skills such as proper training on tail wheel airplanes is just exactly that, a discussion on how to do basic training on basic airplanes.

You can help me by explaining when " back in the day " reefers to.

Lets look at the question regarding quality of training by asking a simple question.

We have a Cessna 150 in our hangar, it has been converted to a the tail wheel configuration.

The Vancouver area has dozens of TCCA licensed flight instructors and I don't know many who I would let fly that basic simple little airplane because they just may wreck it if I let them take it without proper training.

So back to your question.....

...has flight training improved or degraded over the decades?

What puzzles me is TCCA issues class one flight instructor ratings to pilots unable to fly a basic trainer because it has a tail wheel instead of a nose wheel.

[Cat Driver]

I was curious about the FAA take on the subject of wheel landings so I googled it. It is mandatory to do wheel landings for a taildragger check out unless the manufacturer recomends against it.

I am trying to remember ever seeing a certified tail wheel airplane that the manufacturer recommended no wheel landings.

I can recall a few I was not comfortable with trying to three point.....but not because of any recommendation by the manufacturer.

[robertsailor1]

One thing to keep in mind about the USA system (FAA) is that tail wheel flying is a rating and you are not to fly without that rating. Here in Canada we have a simple check out and as such many pilots have not been completely taught how to flt a tail wheel. ie: Not taught wheel landings.

Cat Driver... I have had the exact same experience with teaching flare heights in tail wheels but what I did was have the student fly low over the strip but not touching down. Sometimes it took 2 or 3 passes before they were able to fly low enough and under control and then I transitioned from that to landings with great improvements.

[robertsailor1]

Its an interesting subject, tail wheel flying is a niche market for sure so I understand why so few instructors are current in conventional geared aircraft. It doesn't answer the question why as instructors they don't want to improve their own skills by learning to fly a tail wheel in the first place.
My wife is learning to fly and I had quite the time finding someone to teach her in conventional gear.
I think about all the future commercial pilots that will fly Beavers or 180's after the floats come off...seems to me that it would be a natural.
I take a number of people for rides, mostly pilots having their first open cockpit experience. The front pit has airspeed and altimeter plus throttle and of course stick and rudder. No turn and bank. Very few of these experienced pilots can fly the aircraft in a coordinated way, usually slipping in each turn as well as level flight. Took a low timer out (ink still wet) yesterday and he was flying very nicely by the seat of his pants. We talked for a bit after and I congratulated him on his basic skills. Somewhere along the way in his 70 hours total time a friend had taught him to fly a J-3 Cub.

[Cat Driver]

This situation in which there are so many class one instructors who are not competent unconventional gear airplanes is rather baffling.

How many driving schools are there where you have to search for a driving instructor capable of teaching you to drive a manual shift transmission?

[Beefitarian]

How many driving schools are there where you have to search for a driving instructor capable of teaching you to drive a manual shift transmission?

More than you think? As a guess I'd say it's passed more than half a while ago.

[Shiny Side Up]

It doesn't answer the question why as instructors they don't want to improve their own skills by learning to fly a tail wheel in the first place.

Please don't assume that there is a lack of desire to do it, when there is a substantial lack of opportunity to do it. I can count on one hand the ammount of tail draggers out there in Western Canada that are openly available for getting training on. I've yet to run into an instructor (or pilot who doesn't have experience in one) who's refused a chance. I can tell you from my experience, the tailwheel world has been extrordinarily difficult to break into.

[photofly]

You can help me by explaining when " back in the day " reefers to.

Probably a matter for another thread, which I'll post (unless someone beats me to it) in a day or so!

[Cat Driver]

" Back in the day " can of course be related to lots of different sectors of aviation, for big jet pilots it could mean back in the days of INS before RNS became the norm.

Or back when the DC3 was the most popular airplane in the airlines.

[robertsailor1]

Please don't assume that there is a lack of desire to do it, when there is a substantial lack of opportunity to do it. I can count on one hand the ammount of tail draggers out there in Western Canada that are openly available for getting training on. I've yet to run into an instructor (or pilot who doesn't have experience in one) who's refused a chance. I can tell you from my experience, the tailwheel world has been extrordinarily difficult to break into.

I'm sure in your case it is difficult. The school in Boundry Bay where my wife is learning on an older Citabria has about 15+ instructors and to my knowledge only one of them is current in tail wheel.

[Cat Driver]

I'm sure in your case it is difficult. The school in Boundry Bay where my wife is learning on an older Citabria has about 15+ instructors and to my knowledge only one of them is current in tail wheel.

Obviously there is very little interest in tail wheel airplanes anymore or more instructors would get checked out in them.

A few years ago I was going to offer tail wheel check outs in my Cub, but now I very much doubt if it would be worth bothering about.