Career Pilot In Canada

[OHMYLANTA]

This is my first post and may not be in the right category so feel free to move it to the appropriate one.

But...I am currently in high school and have serious plans to make a career of being a pilot. I made the decision a while ago that I don't want a boring office job for the rest of my life. I'm considering going to confed or sault for my flight training. I dont want to do it at a local flight school because I want the college experience.

I have read A LOT of posts on here about subsidized college programs. Read a lot about the airline industry, mostly negative. I know aviation jobs are few to none, but doesn't that go with a lot of jobs. My sister has to take an internship out of university just to get her foot in the door. So my question in the end is, is it possible? Can I go through the schooling, have a couple sh*t jobs working the dock or ramp, to get to that flying job, and hopefully WJ or AC. All this negative talk around the forums is giving me second thoughts on taking the risk.

[cptn2016]

It sounds like you've got the bug - and you know it early on. I didn't discover my love of flying until my mid 20's, and I'm starting late because of it.

My advice, since you love flying, is finish high school, maybe work for a year and get your PPL at the same time. You obviously love flying so if PPL is as far as you go, you'll love it regardless (not to mention a lot of jaded vets will tell you that a non-aviation career plus a PPL is flying heaven - you fly on your own time, whenever you want and how you want). During this time you will be learning all along, you will be around pilots, especially working pilots in the industry, and you will find out whether or not you want to pursue it as a career. At that point you can go to a college program or whichever route you feel is best.

So short answer, it is definitely possible, but you're not in a hurry so don't rush it if you're unsure about a career. You've got lots of time. Good luck!

[wotai139]

I think it's a great decision that you want to become a pilot. As you say, it is very exciting and rewarding work.

Remember that you could study whatever you like when it comes to college degrees. Many high school students have the misconception that you have to study aviation in college to become a pilot. This is wrong. You could study English, Engineering, Religion, Finance, or any topic totally unrelated to pilots. A post secondary degree is not a requirement to work as a pilot. But you'll find that a lot of the "negative talk" that you heard in other threads, will be less of a factor if you have a degree.

[loopa]

But you'll find that a lot of the "negative talk" that you heard in other threads, will be less of a factor if you have a degree.

Not at all. The negativity comes from another source - the degree doesn't decide ones future and so called happiness in this industry, and it seems like more and more young fellows are falling for that myth. While the degree certainly plays a good role in being a backup plan, should you ever come across any reason to be prohibited from flying - it certainly doesn't govern your success in the industry. I think the problem is that people outside the "circle" of aviation (so to speak) only see success when they are handling big jets for what seems to be a reputable airline. Rightfully so, cause the general public (which is where pilot interest typically is sparked) really only comes in contact with aviation when flying on holidays or etc using airlines. What has to be understood by these young people is that there are so many sectors in aviation (very of which brings about success) that most people aren't even aware of. You have anything from charters, to corporate, to medevac, to commuter, to freelance instructing, etc and etc... What you guys need to focus on in this industry are two things (in my opinion) - Personal career goals and Life career goals. Personal goals are the milestones you want to achieve before retiring (and if flying a 777 is what you're after, then all the power to you). Life career goals are the lifestyle side of your career, which honestly is what is going to govern your happiness and in my opinion "success" towards a much larger and substantial degree. I think where a lot of people draw negative straws are when they are expecting these airline jobs and etc to be these milestones, only to realize that once they've gotten there that they are less senior than a student pilot at a flight school (metaphor). Combine that with long hours of work, on uninteresting schedules, and what is considered in most cases a pay cut from a previous job to get there - it will deform into a negative aura that you will find on avcanada - the place where rants occur amongst other places. The anonymity makes it easier to rant as well.

So to answer your question - there's light at the end of the tunnel. I can't even begin to explain the summation of what I am going to categorize as amazing experience up until today, and I'm a fairly new career guy. I'll tell you, there have been some rough roads to get to where I am today - but looking back at it, it's all going to be stories I'll be sharing with somebody else while cruising through the flight levels one day. I think you have come to a pretty bad first impression of the aviation industry on these boards - the simple reality is that you have to work your butt off to get anywhere - and if you enter the training and industry with that mentality, you won't be caught by surprise. And if you do enter the industry without that realization, then you'll probably turn bitter too. I entered the industry with the wrong impression, and it took a few screw ups on my end to figure out what it takes to succeed. It's a learning curve full of both awesome and never ending excitement - wouldn't trade this career for the world.

Seriously consider the non-college way too - you're better off getting your licenses and studying a non-aviation related degree once you're established in a flying job that has some down time involved with it (layovers, on calls, etc).

Wish you all the best! And as I always offer to new guys who're just starting out, beer's are on me if you're in the BC/AB/SK/ON region at the same time I am.

[SuperchargedRS]

I dont want to do it at a local flight school because I want the college experience.

Been there done that, got the degree (at a real college at least), it's a little over rated nowdays, FYI though I have my degree on my resume, I have yet to have ANY employer ask to see proof of it, yet they all want to see proof of my CPL, IFR, CFI, T/W, hours etc.

But if you want to get a degree worth the paper it's printed on go fly and get a degree in something like marketing, business or something useful, the aviation flight management (or whatever they call it now) is a degree just to be a degree. Maybe save some time and get a online degree, its more of a hoop to jump through then a experience.

If you want a experience, when you do your flight training do some epic cross countries (like ON to Texas, or Cuba etc.), school is school only difference in college is kids are away from mommie and tend to get a little more drunk and stupid in the overpriced dorms, also the college programs will not allow these types of cross countries, you would need to do it through a normal flight school.

There are MANY, MANY roads that will lead to where you want to go in aviation, sometimes if you follow the pack too closely you just blend in, take the path less traveled and gain some LIFE EXPERIENCE.

GOOD LUCK

[iflyforpie]

If you want the college experience, then go to college and get a real degree, not one of these McDonald's Happy Meal ones that mean diddley outside of aviation.

And a degree isn't necessary. I know lots of successful pilots with no formal post-secondary education, and a few who never completed highschool (though the latter are of an older generation). One day the industry is going to wake up and go back to its roots and realize that critical thinking is not necessary to operate machinery... in fact, it is probably dangerous to do so.

As far as a career, you have to take it as it comes. I wanted to work for West Jet when I started out and here I am ten years later still flying a 172 for a living with airlines nowhere on the horizon. I made a choice to not go north, not work ramp, not work for low pay, and not work for shady operators. But I did have one of the original 27 or so WJ pilots stop in my office today really looking forward to getting back into the 172 and lamenting on how big the company has got.

[DaveC]

If you want the college experience, then go to college and get a real degree, not one of these McDonald's Happy Meal ones that mean diddley outside of aviation.

And a degree isn't necessary. I know lots of successful pilots with no formal post-secondary education, and a few who never completed highschool (though the latter are of an older generation). One day the industry is going to wake up and go back to its roots and realize that critical thinking is not necessary to operate machinery... in fact, it is probably dangerous to do so.

As far as a career, you have to take it as it comes. I wanted to work for West Jet when I started out and here I am ten years later still flying a 172 for a living with airlines nowhere on the horizon. I made a choice to not go north, not work ramp, not work for low pay, and not work for shady operators. But I did have one of the original 27 or so WJ pilots stop in my office today really looking forward to getting back into the 172 and lamenting on how big the company has got.

Pie, couple of questions.

1. Do you have any formal education (college/university)? I would say that the industry will never go back to the way it was. A high school diploma these days limits you extensively (for anyone without experience) unless you know someone, have a lot of experience (from when it didn't matter) work a trade, or catch a real break, you won't stand a chance in today's workforce.

2. With regards to successful pilots: I know a couple of senior captains at Air Canada, both of which without a degree. Keep in mind they have been flying for 30 years at AC and started in there 20s. This doesn't happen anymore.

Job Requirements

To fly for Air Canada, pilots must meet certain basic requirements:

1000 hours of fixed wing flying time
Completion of schooling to the university entrance level. Ability to pass the Air Canada and Transport Canada medical and visual acuity requirements for a Category 1 medical certificate.
Canadian Commercial Pilot licence, current Instrument Rating and Multi-Engine endorsement.
Canadian citizenship or landed immigrant status.
Pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, so preference is given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements. Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:

Canadian Airline Transport Pilot licence
University degree or college diploma
Aviation College diploma
Military or commercial flight experience
Jet and/or glass cockpit experience
Additional language(s)

The youngest AC pilot I know told me out of the 22 in his ground school, 21 had degrees. 1 had a aviation diploma. I'm sure it is possible to land entry at an airline without a university degree or aviation diploma, but do you really want to stack those odds against you? It'd be similar to a Uni grad with a CPL applying to AC.. unlikely.

[loopa]

While you are right that it's not like the old days where 20 year olds are employed straight into ACA, it also isn't like the old days where Air Canada is the elite place to consider a career in our current aviation industry.

Air Canada may require a degree, but in reality what it is they are doing is profiling towards the "type" of individual they want. From speaking with one of their guys who occasionally takes part in the hiring, the bottom is the ideal ACA candidate (exceptions occur):

- 5000 hours
- 500 multi-turbine ifr experience (preferably pic)
- 2000 hours pic of any form
- Experience with EFIS
- ATPL
- 21 years old
- Degree (shows commitment, responsibility, and ability to study)
- Married (shows commitment, responsibility and won't jump ship as easily as a single guy)
- Bilingual

So after speaking with him the impression he put me under is that the degree shows what I put in the parenthesis there. But having a type rating on something and being Married is equivalent to AC's matrix as having a degree is - as both shows commitment, responsibility, and ability to study. Chances are you're going to be type rated anyway before scoring something with AC. Looks like the best way in is to get married LOL! We both had a chuckle about it, but that seems to be the ideal candidate. I find it interesting how they credit marriage and a degree with same regard - but I guess to them it means the same thing.

Now chances are kind of low that you'll be a 21 year old with an ATPL and 5000 hours and already married with kids. But a 26 or 27 year old with the above criteria seems to be what they're after - now if the competition stand was against Married / Degree suited people, then yes, everybody - GET ON TOP OF THAT DEGREE! Looking at the majority of us pilot's, more of us are degree less and seems we don't complain as much about our bad sched's and having to wait x amount of months for flight passes ... my 2 cents. So many of my friends and acquaintances are making better dollars, flying better scheds, and quite frankly enjoying the pilot career - oh minus the fancy pilot hat though. No need for a 4 year degree to get there either. The degree is in my opinion as useless in a piloting career as a 250 hour kid boasting that he has done 100 hours of 2 crew in a 747 simulator as part of his 4th year aviation college degree.

Reality is if you have a life situation/qualification that in AC's eyes resembles commitment, responsibility, ability to study, and not jumping ship, along with the other requirements, you're the type of guy who will most likely get a phone call to show up for an interview.

This is information straight out of the hiring, how people's experience has measured towards that I'm completely unaware of.

I quite frankly enjoy WestJet's hiring practices much more. I find that they believe that anybody can program the FMC of a 737, taxi it to position, advance throttles to De-Rated thrust settings, get airborne, apply A/P on the FLCH mode, do their VNAV A or B abatement proc, press the hdg bug to intercept their Airway, activate LNAV and VNAV, go through some checklists, and soar through the skies (there's more to that obviously). What it seems like they're more interested in is the type of individual you are, what your experience has done to cause you to want to be with them, how you would deal with sticky situations, the decisions you would make, if you would treat your flight attendants like bags of crap, how you would go about out of the box emergencies, and perhaps the most important of all, who in the company likes you to the point to want to have you by their side when doing a 4 day pairing? There is less of a bias towards marriage and degree's and etc. If you have the good 5000 hour mark with noticeable multi-turbine ifr experience on efis equipped aircraft along with your ATPL, you're most likely in line for a phone call

This isn't a debate about WJ or AC. This is about you picking a career for the right reasons. Being an airline pilot might be what you aspire now, it could change, it could stay the same. But at the very least I would pick a company that would value me for me, the person, not me the college drunk who attended college night every Thursday in hopes of grabbing something spongy. What I remain confused about is how a uni grad who passed with the bare minimum GPA is considered to have the ability to study?

Plus, learning the 101 economy chart with supply and demand for 3 hours in a room full of 400 people has absolutely nothing to do with understanding what limitations you encounter and as a result the decisions you make when your 4th hydraulic line fails with 1.5 hours of fuel remaining and your PNR reducing by the seconds. That's where that 5000 hours, in multi turbine ifr experience and type rating experience comes into play

Wish you all the best!

[iflyforpie]

Pie, couple of questions.

1. Do you have any formal education (college/university)? I would say that the industry will never go back to the way it was. A high school diploma these days limits you extensively (for anyone without experience) unless you know someone, have a lot of experience (from when it didn't matter) work a trade, or catch a real break, you won't stand a chance in today's workforce.

I have a simple 2 year diploma for my AME ticket. This has helped me both get jobs flying and stay in places that otherwise wouldn't be able to keep me full-time. I didn't say that education didn't help, I just said it isn't necessary for a successful career and doesn't make you a better pilot (which is what we are doing, right?).

Air Canada was never a consideration for me and never will be. Even still, the degree is just part of a matrix that they consider. My being married with children has probably been the biggest help in my career for the reasons loopa stated. Guys with degrees still jump ship like everyone else.

2. With regards to successful pilots: I know a couple of senior captains at Air Canada, both of which without a degree. Keep in mind they have been flying for 30 years at AC and started in there 20s. This doesn't happen anymore.

It doesn't happen anymore because the industry is different. These guys didn't start on DC-8s, or 737s. They started on DC-3s and Convair 580s, the 1900s and Dash 8s of yesteryear that just happened to be part of the flag carrier's fleet.

To get a full degree takes four years full-time. In the same time simply flying for a living you can get an ATPL work your way up to command in a small turboprop. Which do you think would be more valuable to AC?

Plus, there are tons of other options than airlines.

[OHMYLANTA]

thanks for the advice everyone. I understand the logic in getting a real degree in a non-aviation field, but I dont want to be a plumber, or a stuffy businessman in a office, just to make money. Saying that I have another question. Obviously most of you work in the industry...do you see it turning around for my generation? Am I going in at good time or is the pilot-job ratio getting worse? I know the industry can change in a day, but there must be some general trend. I have read good points about the baby-boomers retiring and the 65 year old captains that stayed on in 2007 are set to retire in 2012 so I assume that will trickle down.

[SuperchargedRS]

thanks for the advice everyone. I understand the logic in getting a real degree in a non-aviation field, but I dont want to be a plumber, or a stuffy businessman in a office, just to make money. Saying that I have another question. Obviously most of you work in the industry...do you see it turning around for my generation? Am I going in at good time or is the pilot-job ratio getting worse? I know the industry can change in a day, but there must be some general trend. I have read good points about the baby-boomers retiring and the 65 year old captains that stayed on in 2007 are set to retire in 2012 so I assume that will trickle down.

No, the industry will not change and is not going to be changing.

Quality people ARE ALWAYS in demand, people who arnt willing to go a few steps further then the guy on their left AND right, well they will have a very hard time in aviation and end up bitching and leaving the industry.

So how much do you REALLY want it??

[OHMYLANTA]

thanks for the advice everyone. I understand the logic in getting a real degree in a non-aviation field, but I dont want to be a plumber, or a stuffy businessman in a office, just to make money. Saying that I have another question. Obviously most of you work in the industry...do you see it turning around for my generation? Am I going in at good time or is the pilot-job ratio getting worse? I know the industry can change in a day, but there must be some general trend. I have read good points about the baby-boomers retiring and the 65 year old captains that stayed on in 2007 are set to retire in 2012 so I assume that will trickle down.

No, the industry will not change and is not going to be changing.

Quality people ARE ALWAYS in demand, people who arnt willing to go a few steps further then the guy on their left AND right, well they will have a very hard time in aviation and end up bitching and leaving the industry.

So how much do you REALLY want it??

well...I wont fly for peanuts...I know thats frowned upon here

[SuperchargedRS]

well...I wont fly for peanuts...I know thats frowned upon here

...not what I said, nor what I practice or preach. It's interesting that you jumped to working for less $ when said go further then your peers are willing to go.



Are you willing to leave Canada for a good first job?

Are you willing to move at the drop of a hat until you have some real experience and a easily insurable amount of hours?

Do you honor you word?

Do you strive to be better then everyone else in the industry?

It's not that hard to get where you want to go if you are willing to do what I listed above and REALLY work for it.

[OHMYLANTA]

watched all of David Radfords Botswana Bound and now I guess Zambia Bound. Looks like some really cool flying and a good way to pay off debt.

Does anyone know of other places in africa similar to maun?

[OHMYLANTA]

well after a good talk with my guidance councilor whos husband is actually a pilot for AC, and couple talks with some pilot family friends I think I'll take people's advice on here and keep aviation as a hobby. As I still love to fly. Thanks for all the advice everyone.

[SuperchargedRS]

.....and have serious plans to make a career of being a pilot. .... I made the decision a while ago ....

Then

.....after a good talk with my guidance councilor whos husband is actually a pilot for AC, and couple talks with some pilot family friends I think I'll take people's advice on here and keep aviation as a hobby.

Well I think you made the right decision, or rather I think the right decision was made for you.

If some public school official, mommie a few friends and strangers on the net can talk you out of your "serious plans" to become a pilot you didnt have enough commitment to have any success, especial in this industry, in the first place.

It seems to me people arnt willing to fight for jack shit nowadays, just wishy washy passionless people,


People tried to talk me out of getting into this business, I found them pathetic, I looked at them as people I could learn a great deal from, I looked for their weaknesses/problems and worked any of them out of myself. Where I am now in my career, I am very happy and the future looks to rock, but I didnt get their by letting others make choices for me, being timid or lacking in resolve.

[OHMYLANTA]

I understand I heavily contradicted myself on my own post. But all I can do is keep my grades up and keep researching. Being a pilot is still up there with some other options, its just not the only one anymore.

[Beefitarian]

It's a tough grind like major league sports. If it's not number one you probably won't make it. That's my story.