Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

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CpnCrunch
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by CpnCrunch » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:24 am

I wouldn't attach too much importance to passengers saying it was a 'normal approach'. They aren't likely to know the difference between final approach and a level off at 200 ft.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by another_try » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:28 am

Has anyone noticed that there is no missed approach point for the LOC/DME approach on the ILS/DME 35T plate? Not on the DND copies anyway. Take a look. Page 325 in the previous set of pubs that expired yesterday.

Were they intending to fly the LOC approach, dialed in & tracked the VOR by accident, and were then fudging the MA point, since one wasn't published for the approach?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by privateer » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:31 am

flyerboy101 wrote:
I used to fly for Bradley in 1976-77 in resolute on DC3 and twin otter.The first thing I noticed about those hills to the east was the aircraft wreckage.I am sure I counted 3 or 4 crashed airplanes.It was a challenge to get in and out of resolute with the fog,snow low vis or 0-0 weather that only occurred over the airport.Sometimes we had to land on the road down by the village in the twin otter and taxi up to the airport.I am sure everyone will look forward to the complete results of the TSB investigation.In the mean time I look forward to all the possible scenarios posted by all you professional pilots and crew as information is knowledge and we just want to prevent accidents in the future. Fly Safe
+1
I like the part where you taxi into town to the airport :lol:
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by privateer » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:35 am

another_try wrote:
Has anyone noticed that there is no missed approach point for the LOC/DME approach on the ILS/DME 35T plate? Not on the DND copies anyway. Take a look. Page 325 in the previous set of pubs that expired yesterday.

Were they intending to fly the LOC approach, dialed in & tracked the VOR by accident, and were then fudging the MA point, since one wasn't published for the approach?
Buddy has a point.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by privateer » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:44 am

Inuvik does.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by cncpc » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:48 am

another_try wrote:Has anyone noticed that there is no missed approach point for the LOC/DME approach on the ILS/DME 35T plate? Not on the DND copies anyway. Take a look. Page 325 in the previous set of pubs that expired yesterday.

Were they intending to fly the LOC approach, dialed in & tracked the VOR by accident, and were then fudging the MA point, since one wasn't published for the approach?
I was wondering about that. It looks like down to 540 after Pokan, then track inbound until 0 DME? Which is at the far end of the runway? There is no timing. If they were tuned to the VOR, the DME would have been coming off it.

It might also be possible to misidentify, given that the code pattern for the last two letters is the same for IRB and YRB.

The real issue is the track inbound.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by 55+ » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:01 am

another_try wrote:Has anyone noticed that there is no missed approach point for the LOC/DME approach on the ILS/DME 35T plate? Not on the DND copies anyway. Take a look. Page 325 in the previous set of pubs that expired yesterday.

Were they intending to fly the LOC approach, dialed in & tracked the VOR by accident, and were then fudging the MA point, since one wasn't published for the approach?
You do have a point. The MAP for the non-precision portion (LOC/DME) should be defined by a DME reference from the co-located source(ch 40), then a timing block underneath the aerodrome sketch isn't required, however some designs continue with that practice.. I believe this IAP was revised because there was an NDB used as the FAF but that facility was decomissioned and a new FAF(DME referenced). There isn't a timing block on the current chart but there is a notam currently running one which will satisy the situation. I don't think NC was paying attention here as a DME referenced MAP should be on that IAP as I see it.

110070 CYRB RESOLUTE BAY
CYRB ILS/DME RWY 35 TRUE APCH:
LANDING SKETCH TIMING BLOCK TO READ:
POKAN FAF TO MAP 4.0 NM
KNOTS 70 90 110 130 150
MIN: SEC 3:26 2:40 2:11 1:51 1:36
1106300901 TIL APRX 1109221800
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Changes in Latitudes » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:23 am

I'll be curious to find out what kind of TAWS information was portrayed to the crew.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by nutbutter » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:13 pm

Edit:
What's the tail wind limitations of the airplane and/or First Air?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by nutbutter » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:24 pm

btw, can someone post the rest of the plates including the LOC BC and the airport diagram please and thanks/?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Lost in Saigon » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:55 pm

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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by RogerCheckCopy » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:04 pm

Not a fan of the fact that the VOR is not depicted on the charts.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by buckets » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:11 pm

It would help if the investigators simply released the CVR or at least a transcript of topical parts so that interested people wouldn't waste time trying to figure out what is already known. To me it seems like either the airplane was not where the crew thought it was or the altitude they thought to be safe where they were was wrong, maybe flight into rising terrain? Under the circumstances I would probably have flown the ILS approach landing on 35T unless I ran into assured circling met on short final.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by thirdtimecharm » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:56 pm

:(
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by SheriffPatGarrett » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:26 pm

Resolute has quite an history.
Set up to support the area weather stations at the time of the DEW line build up,
it had enormous traffic for the times, the same so so weather,
two NDB for approach and a radio range for long range navigation.

The shocking sight arriving at Resolute was the spectacle of about thirty large crashed
airplanes near the runway. They where all in decent shape, given that they all landed gear up on their belly.
It was like in a huge museum of WW II British transport airplanes, Canada still being a colony, Brits insisted
on their old transport being used first, Avro Yorks, Lancastrians, Handley Page, Hastings, DC-4 and sixes.

These people, lacking any alternate, would keep doing ADF approaches until they almost ran out of fuel
then at last, they kept the gear up and put down blind as near the runway as possible, smack between the NDB antennas...
There where few casualties, people being pretty precise flying the non-precision...
Still they where all pretty much demolished and they where a fascinating picture with all their exposed innards.
(Limey planes, like the French and Germans, where built fairly different than our American standards.)

Going back ten years later, they had all been bulldozed in an colossal pile of aluminum two to three hundred feet high...too bad!

Then another ten years, and it had all been buried.

Keep in mind that the 737 is an extremely maneuverable aircraft, it roll like a fighter,
it is also extremely tough...many instance of Nordair landing OFF runway without damage.
And in the old day, you had TWO NDB to line up and land(or crash near the runway!)

Where the crash occurred is NOT smooth terrain...it happened just
where all the fatal ones did in the past, I remember a F-27 full of passengers, with at least fifty dead.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by HS-748 2A » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:01 pm

SheriffPatGarrett wrote: I remember a F-27 full of passengers, with at least fifty dead.
Nobody was killed on that F-27.

Here is a picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brosha/310 ... et-663307/

You're right though about YRB. There has been no shortage of crashes there over the years.

'48.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by SheriffPatGarrett » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:03 pm

Image
http://www.ruudleeuw.com/search116.htm
This is supposed to be CF-GND, supposedly done in in Resolute, but it's certainly not that
flat up that hill, must be the other side of the island.
Over all these years, F-27 where ubiquitous and I distinctly remember reading all the
details of a major disaster exactly at the same location, on top of that 500 ft or so hill...could be not a F-27, it is so long ago,
but it was NOT a B-737...lots of horrible accidents up there...it is a loooong flight and you need all your attention,
and since crews often have little fuel, little options and can panic...
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Diadem » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:25 am

Prior to the accident, the CF and TSB were planning on holding an exercise using the wreckage of the F27 to simulate a plane crash.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by Panama Jack » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:03 am

Does First Air use CAP plates or Jeppesens (or something else)?

Also curious to know whether First Air's SOP's prescribe Constant Descent Angle non-precision approaches (where DME information is available) or whether the Dive and Drive method is still used?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by 1&2SpooledUp » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:46 pm

Their Universal FMS's are set up for WAAS LPV and CDA's, so no need to do Dive and Drive in CYRB. That's why I have a hard time believing they were doing a circling approach. The circling minimums are (678) and the ceiling was lower than that according to the metar issued before the accident occurred. I know one thing though, that so called "killer switch" scares the crap out of me. Why airplanes are still allowed to operate without being modified is beyond me. Industry oversight once again. I wonder how many near misses and almost accidents this switch has caused over the years. I'm in no way implying that's what happened in this case but it could have and it could cause an accident to occur down the road. I take my hat off to the guys and gals who continue to fly these old airliners in one of the most challenging places on earth!

http://www.wingsmagazine.com/content/view/1302/
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by linecrew » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:09 pm

privateer wrote:another_try wrote:
Has anyone noticed that there is no missed approach point for the LOC/DME approach on the ILS/DME 35T plate? Not on the DND copies anyway. Take a look. Page 325 in the previous set of pubs that expired yesterday.

Were they intending to fly the LOC approach, dialed in & tracked the VOR by accident, and were then fudging the MA point, since one wasn't published for the approach?
Buddy has a point.

I don't really know a lot about IFR flying but looking at the CAP plate even though there is no published MAP for the localizer approach I have a question. Wouldn't a pilot know given that the final approach fix POKAN is published as 4.0 miles from the threshold if they didn't see the runway after flying that 4 miles at minimums would they not just commence the missed? I mean if you know that you're overtop of the runway do you really need to be told to overshoot in the approach plate?

As an aside, it seems that the Jeppesen folks added the missed approach point on their plates right at the threshold perhaps based on this rationale?
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by linecrew » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:17 pm

SheriffPatGarrett wrote: http://www.ruudleeuw.com/search116.htm
This is supposed to be CF-GND, supposedly done in in Resolute, but it's certainly not that
flat up that hill, must be the other side of the island.
Over all these years, F-27 where ubiquitous and I distinctly remember reading all the
details of a major disaster exactly at the same location, on top of that 500 ft or so hill...could be not a F-27, it is so long ago,
but it was NOT a B-737...lots of horrible accidents up there...it is a loooong flight and you need all your attention,
and since crews often have little fuel, little options and can panic...
Copy and paste these coords into Google Earth and you'll find the F-27 slightly East of Resolute: 74°40'20.85"N 94°35'17.10"W
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by raven54 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:20 am

The MAP for the LOC only is shown on the plate, D0.2.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by another_try » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:52 am

raven54 wrote:The MAP for the LOC only is shown on the plate, D0.2.

No, it is not.
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Re: Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

Post by another_try » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:56 am

linecrew wrote:
I don't really know a lot about IFR flying but looking at the CAP plate even though there is no published MAP for the localizer approach I have a question. Wouldn't a pilot know given that the final approach fix POKAN is published as 4.0 miles from the threshold if they didn't see the runway after flying that 4 miles at minimums would they not just commence the missed? I mean if you know that you're overtop of the runway do you really need to be told to overshoot in the approach plate?

As an aside, it seems that the Jeppesen folks added the missed approach point on their plates right at the threshold perhaps based on this rationale?

Approaches do not work that way -- you do not infer things like MAPs based on other data on the charts.
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