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klmarsha
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:13 am 
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I am currently flying a turbo 206 out of Whitehorse YT. It has a Robertson STOL, VG's, and wingtip extentions. According to Robertson, max performance approach speed is 53 mph. I am approaching at 65, and bleeding down to 60 over the threshold into 1000' strips. At gross, it is still nervewracking to get it stopped. Has anybody flown approaches this slow? I'm sure this is standard day, zero wind numbers that Robertson (now Sierra) is using. Any advice would be helpful. By the way I have been flying floats for the past four years, so I'm having to re-learn wheels somewhat.


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rigpiggy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:28 pm 
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ask your boss if you can go fly a few circuits, and in the downwind slow it up to say 55-60 see how she handles. It really is in his best interests, as a .6 flight could save him a big repair bill


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iflyforpie
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Location: The Misty Mountains...
Well, I have to give you a hybrid answer because I fly a 206 with a Sportsman STOL (poor man's Horton) and a 337 with a Robertson.

With the Sportsman, I approach at 70MPH and am usually well below 60 by touch down at max gross. It will approach at 60, but gets pretty sloppy and requires a ton of power to maintain. The stall horn does not go off. Using this I can get stopped in 1000' with an obstacle 500' off the end easy.

The 337 says 60MPH for approach and I can say it is as stable as a rock at that speed when normal approach is 85, but I don't have a reason to go that slow (got 3000' of which I never use more than half). The Roberston seems to float to the ground without power no matter how high you put the nose (which in the 337 is very easy).

Just remember that approach speeds are just that, approach speeds. Once you are 'over the trees' power should be coming back and speed bleeding off. I want the stall horn to be going off before my wheels touch.


Also with the 206, make sure you bring the flaps up when touching down and the wheel full back to increase braking effectiveness.


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crazy_aviator
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:39 pm 
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Ask yer boss about the backside of the power curve, thats where you will get real utilization of the mods .


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trey kule
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:00 am 
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Well, I dont really like to discuss specific training as a rule. but I am bored as hell this morning. So.

Flying on the backside of the curve is what it is all about. However, iniital practicing near the ground is not always a great idea.
Here is my quick and dirty suggestions. (BTW..I have about 1500hrs on a 206 with a robinson kit)
1. Make sure the plane is rigged properly in accordance with Robinson's specs. They require some wild tensions if I remember correctly and many AME's imply do not rig them to specs. You can check it out by setting up hands off and then selecting flaps down..If you get a roll as the flaps and airlerons come down, check the rigging.
2. Take it up and start by doing some stalls in it if you did not do so on your initial. Specifically in landing configuration with power off and then in level flight with almost full power...Note...level flight
3. Starting at about 2500AGL, set up your approach. Nail the speed and descent rate. At about 2000AGL (preset a number before you start) bring the plane first into level flight and then when you are on the backside of the curve start bringing in the power . If all goes well you should be at the selected altitude, almost full power, under control, and with the stall horn blaring..That is pretty much as slow as you can land it so take a look at the IAS..lots of position error in it at that point. And note how long that whol transition took from descending to flare .
4.Comfortable with the slow speeds, handling, etc.
Time to go down.
5. Find a long airstrip..No obstacles on the approach.. Pick a definite point about 1000 feet of so down it.
Now do what you did in the upper air but start working on putting the wheels down exactly where you want them to touch down.
6. Got it..Now go and do it on a real short strip..When the wind is light to start. And the surface is nice and dry.
Get some experience and expand the envelope with wind surface issues etc.

couple of things..You can get them in alot shorter than you can get them out...particularily with obstacles..Never forget that when you are making a decision to get it into a tight place.

And.. approaching over obstacles is a bit trickier. You do not use the profile you were taught in flight school., And I am not going to discuss it here, as it leaves veirtually zero tolerance for error and your boss does not need a plane banged up because you wanted to learn a very advanced technique. For now, if you cant get it in with a normal approach over an obstacle, land somewhere else.

good luck. I hope this helps a bit.


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klmarsha
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:03 am 
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Thanks to all for your generous input. I'm going to do as Trey suggests and see what I get. I am getting in and out of the small strips, its just not comfortable, and I want it to be. Otherwiase, I'm going to end up in the trees sure as shit, which isn't good for anybody. Thanks again.


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lost in the north
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:10 pm 
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If you are going to end up in the trees sure as shit,stop going in there till you feel feel that you have a 1000' strip mastered


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medi-whacked
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:52 pm 
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klmarsha wrote:
Thanks to all for your generous input. I'm going to do as Trey suggests and see what I get. I am getting in and out of the small strips, its just not comfortable, and I want it to be. Otherwiase, I'm going to end up in the trees sure as shit, which isn't good for anybody. Thanks again.


I sure this wasn't you!
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=


WHITEHORSE AIR SERVICES LTD.
At approximately 1810 Z the aircraft operator, Whitehorse Air Services, reported that C-GWKA , a Cessna 206 on floats overran on takeoff from Russell Lake 70 miles north of Faro, YT. The aircraft impacted trees on the shore at 17:34 Z. The three people on board were uninjured.


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DHCdriver
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:22 pm 
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rigpiggy wrote:
ask your boss if you can go fly a few circuits, and in the downwind slow it up to say 55-60 see how she handles. It really is in his best interests, as a .6 flight could save him a big repair bill


Yes absolutely, get the feel for her, see what she can do at slow speeds. Once you get below that power curve and somethings not in your favor and a overshoot is your only option your in trouble my friend. I'm sure your boss wouldn't mind the extra training. Good luck DHC


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trey kule
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:09 am 
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How about a post to let us know how you made out. what you did and how it worked, or did not work for you.
Maybe we can all learn something form your experience for the future.

Rigpiggy. I am not sure that initially learning to fly on the extreme back side of the curve should be done at circuit height, or even in the circuit.

You want to bring it down to the edge and then learn how to carefully manage pitch and power to get the proper descent rat and how to put it in a flare using what is left of your power and momentum..Better, I think to first learn this at altitude as you lose some altitude in learning...a bit farther from anything hard when you are higher up.


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roscoe
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:23 am 
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Ive often heard it said that if you are going to explore the edges of the envelope, start out two mistakes high. Sage advice methinks.....


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aurora
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:38 am 
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some top notch advice in this thread.


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rigpiggy
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:18 pm 
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trey kule wrote:
Rigpiggy. I am not sure that initially learning to fly on the extreme back side of the curve should be done at circuit height, or even in the circuit.


55 kias is not really the far backside of the curve. Admittedly, I only have around 400tt in the 206, but just for S&G during ferry flights we would play around and with the horton stol cuff, it wouldn't stall till around 43kts, basically when the ASI became unreliable.


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tiny
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Just a side note for that Robertson stol. Make sure the plane has a seaplane rudder. With the small rudder installed, the wing can fly before you have air rudder authority on takeoff.

Tiny


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iflyforpie
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Our 206 simply will not stall with no power and and no load in the back with the Sportsman STOL.

And the 206 weighing about half with a minimum fuel load and one person as fully loaded means a wide variety in performance speeds. I find the stall horn very helpful when 'feeling' for the correct speed on short final.

A big +1 on the seaplane rudder. Finally, a Cessna nose dragger with rudder authority.


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