Visual Approach into uncontrolled aerodrome - question

[cargo_guy]

Scenario:

IFR, VMC, destination ABC, uncontrolled aerodrome, class E, FSS staff on duty.

Cleared for a visual approach. Question: Is it necessary to conform to the circuit pattern for the planned runway?

More specifically: winds favoring RWY 21, you are approaching from the north-west, nicelly set up for a right base, but published circuit pattern is left hand. By the book is it necessary to cross overhead to join, or can you (legally) join the right base.

Main reason I ask is because the FSS staff at ABC are known to be a little.... well, if they were combustion chambers they'd be annular! They have been known to write guys up for not doing things by the book, and are called by some the "ABC radio nazis". It may have something to do with the fact that this is a training ground for new FSS staffers. But I digress...

AIP RAC 9.6.2 states:

The controller considers acceptance of a visual approach clearance as aknowledgement that the pilot shall be responsible for:

... (c) navigation to the final approach.....

RAC 4.5.2 Traffic Circuit Procedures - Uncontrolled Aerodromes states:

The following procedures apply to all aircraft operaring at aerodromes where airport control service is not provided except those aircraft following a standard instrument approach....

My confusion stems from the fact that the term standard instrument approach is not defined anywhere in the AIP. Does that term include visual and contact approaches? I'm leaning toward no, only published approaches.

Whats your take on it?

Thanks.

Cargo_guy

[Tango01]

Are you flying a published approach? oops didn't read the visual approach part. You must conform with VFR procedures.

[Big Bird Anonymous]

You absolutely must conform to the published traffic pattern for the airport VFR or visual IFR, however if on an IFR visual approach, you can arrive straight in if you're established on final at or outside the FAF AND the Class 'E' CZ.

Not so for a contact approach...(From the A.I.P)..."proceed to the destination airport by visual reference to the surface of the earth".

In any case WE still have to "fit in" if there are others arriving and departing...fly safe!!!

[RJ]

If you're planning the right base onto a rwy with lefthand circuits...just be sure to join a 5mile final and they can't say anything.

[Unable Due Traffic]

I say that it is acceptable to join the circuit from the right hand side..... More so if you were cleared for a "Right hand visual RWY 21".
If I had issued the clearance above, I expect you to join from the right side and NOT flyoverhead. If you did that, you would be conducting an approach other that what you were cleared to do and then you and I would have to chat.....
I had a discussion about this with a pilot who used to fly into ABC regularly. He firmly believes that being assigned a specific Visual approach solved the "must join overhead " dilemma.

[cargo_guy]

Joining a 5 mile final outside the zone was considered. However, it would require us to go out of our way. But certainly, was a possibility.

As far as being cleared for a "right visual 21", thats a good idea. Hadn't thought of that. However, centre just cleared us to ABC for a "visual approach" and left us to work out the runway with FSS.

Big Bird wrote:

Not so for a contact approach...(From the A.I.P)..."proceed to the destination airport by visual reference to the surface of the earth".

Good point! But its still subject to interpretation. You are still proceeding to the destination by visual reference, but I don't think that once you arrive at the destination the contact approach precludes you from following the VFR pattern.

I think RAC 4.5.2, quoted earlier in this post, still requires you to join the VFR circuit even when on the contact approach. Anybody agree?

Unable Due Traffic.... just curious are you a centre controller? FSS specialist?

Once again I appreciate the replys.

Cargo_guy

[Kurwa]

As I see it you only have to comply with a VFR traffic circuit if you're going to cause a problem with the VFR people. Once cleared for a visual, I believe it says if VFR traffic is using the circuit then you must comply with that. Otherwise, visual approach with no VFR conflict in the circuit, navigate yourself to the final approach couse.

Anybody?

[Kurwa]

ah...that's course of course.

[Big Bird Anonymous]

Cargo Guy

On a contact you can be in 1 mile and clear of cloud, a direct approach is acceptable regardless (if the the vis is >1 mile). Therefore requesting a contact will work and if the pattern is clear you can make a direct approach even if it is cavok, but good airmanship still takes precedence if there are any VFR buddies ahead

As for the "cleared right visual" post from unable due traffic, that can only occur in a radar environment.

The reg is that under ATS control you can be cleared for a VISUAL approach to the airport, but if the airport has a published circuit pattern, then ALL aircraft are required to follow the pattern by the book.

Advantage = contact with precautions

[fche]

As I see it you only have to comply with a VFR traffic circuit if you're going to cause a problem with the VFR people. ... Otherwise, visual approach with no VFR conflict in the circuit, navigate yourself to the final approach course.

That doesn't make sense. At an uncontrolled (non-MF) airport, how would you even know if there was VFR traffic?

The rules are simple. If the weather permits joining a standard VFR circuit, then you should do so.

[Carl]

Come on guys. Really, it costs more to drive that far in your cars now a days then it does to fly overhead the airport for a proper circuit pattern. Go, ahead and join the right base. haha, see what happens.

[cargo_guy]

....
That doesn't make sense. At an uncontrolled (non-MF) airport, how would you even know if there was VFR traffic?

The rules are simple. If the weather permits joining a standard VFR circuit, then you should do so.

I never said it was non-MF, just uncontrolled. Just the same I do agree that joining the proper pattern is the way to go. However, it does add a few extra minutes. And in our operation on time performance is important, so if we can shave a minute here or there we do.

Having said that, in this scenario we did end up joining the right base to final. Captains decision. Nobody was written up (that I know of) but it might have been an oversight by FSS. Who knows. Also, we didn't call the right base. Just made our required call on final. Maybe they (FSS) missed the fact that we'd actually come in from the right side.

Cargo_guy

PS. I'm not trying to be anal by nit-picking over this topic. I'm just looking for concensus or clarification. I like to be clear on the rules, so if I do break em at least I know I've done it.

[LostinRotation]

Scenario:

published circuit pattern is left hand. By the book is it necessary to cross overhead to join, or can you (legally) join the right base.

Cargo_guy

Ok you actually want to know if it's ok and legal to go against the published flow of traffic to make your life easier ?

I'm not sure as to why you call them the "abc nazis" but if I was flying the circuit that day I would sure as hell be glad they were there to keep people like you from causing a mid-air collision to save 2 minutes : D

-=0=LIR=0=-

[Unable Due Traffic]

Cargo_guy I am a centre controller

I stand by my post. I can assign a visual into an uncontrolled airport. However, other traffic may make it impossible for me to assign the visual.

[xsbank]

Join the circuit - some of us get paid by the hour and never cut corners!

[cargo_guy]

Ok you actually want to know if it's ok and legal to go against the published flow of traffic to make your life easier ?

I'm not sure as to why you call them the "abc nazis" but if I was flying the circuit that day I would sure as hell be glad they were there to keep people like you from causing a mid-air collision to save 2 minutes : D

-=0=LIR=0=-

Easy now! I'm only trying to clarify because I wasn't sure. Personally, I don't care if we're on sked or not. Some of the captains I fly with might, I don't give a rats ass... makes no difference on my paycheque, and I won't be reprimanded for following procedure.

I never said I called them the "ABC nazis", rather I said they've been called that by other pilots. And I meant that as a joke... sorry if you took it personally.

Now, if you were in the circuit that day then I'd sure as hell do whatever it took to keep the flight safe. But ask yourself what about the days when I'm the only traffic in the freakin zone! Its obviously not a safety issue if I join the right base then, is it. In that case, what is the problem with conveniently taking the shorter route. Hence, my question. I don't want to get written up for joining the right base (in this case) traffic or not! I just want to clarify the rule is all.

Cargo_guy

[pitot]

Cargo,

If your looking for all the legalities i just thought i would let you know When Ifr into an fss controlled aerodrome i believe you need to either do a contact appr, or cancel and keep the alerting services open, or do the full procedure. You could also do vfr company note if your company is set up for that. You need a tower to do the visual. I have had this discussion many times as well. Some stations will let you do the visual when its requested, and some IE. manitoba will violate if you try that. I used to call visual all the time till i found that out. There's no point in getting in the habit of doing it wrong because one day you'll meet a fss who wont like it and report you. happy flying

[Croissant Wrench]

Why not just go into the FSS and ask for a professional's advice and let us know what they say? I rarely fly into MF areas and Class E CZ's.

[Kurwa]

If you're 'cleared for an approach', and it's uncontrolled, and VFR conditions exist, you can still join at or outside the IF and go straight in final. No VFR circuit procedures would be required. However, after making the necessary calls on the appropriate frequency, you discover that there is VFR traffic, then you have to conform to the VFR traffic circuit. Does that cover my ass?

[centerstored]

Ok, first of all, there is a difference between an MF and an ATF. At an MF, you may join the circuit left, right, final, overhead...anyway you like provided you do not conflict with any other traffic. (this was VFR) At an ATF you are supposed to join left downwind (probably to avoid NORDO). If you don't cancel...or close (ha ha ha...that's another thread) you're IFR and you're cleared for an approach, you should request a contact or visual approach in VFR wx, or atleast advise ATC of you intentions. If you are still spooked on the Right hand MF procedure...join right base if no traffic exists, call the FSS when turning final. You decide as the PIC when you have joined the circuit and where! (based on your radio calls) If you are really paranoid, call 5 mile final.

[twinpratts]

Centerstored...The guys in Lethbridge will violate you if you join RH base... and it's an MF there
Also... some MF's now have Radar... so I'm not sure if you can get away with '5 mile final' if you're not really there.

[zzjayca]

Cargo,

When Ifr into an fss controlled aerodrome i believe you need to either do a contact appr, or cancel and keep the alerting services open, or do the full procedure. You could also do vfr company note if your company is set up for that. You need a tower to do the visual. I have had this discussion many times as well.

Not quite correct. If IFR into an airport that doesn't have airport control service (ie. TWR), a visual or a contact approach may be approved by the IFR controller (ie centre). If ATC clears you for "an approach", you may conduct any published approach for the airport. (If there is a published straight in approach you may perform it.) However, since neither contact nor visual approaches are published, you need approval from ATC (not FSS) to conduct one.

There is no requirement for airport control service (TWR) at an airport to have a visual or contact approach approved. Since you are an IFR aircraft, the IFR controller (Centre or TCU) is responsible for your separation not the VFR controller (TWR). If there is a TWR in operation, the IFR controller must get TWR's approval before clearing an aircraft for a visual or contact since the flight paths to the runway are usually different then if the aircraft were on an instrument approach. If the airport is serviced by FSS, the IFR controller doesn't need approval from FSS since FSS is an advisory service not a control service.

Also, there is no requirement for radar at the airport for an IFR controller to approve a visual approach. However, most controllers are weary of approving multiple visual approaches without radar since we have no way of determining if you are following the correct traffic to the airport.

[FREEFALL]

As long as safety is assured, why not? TC has issued a memo stating they no longer need all the reports of a/c joining unpublished circut patterns. Any easy-going specialist doesn't care as long as it all works out safely.

[FamilyGuy]

Unable due traffic, you say you clear visuals at uncontrolled airports???

By uncontrolled you must mean no TOWER and not an airport in uncontrolled airspace correct?

[centerstored]

Twin,

Actually, check AIP fig 4.1. If your MF is in operation, you can join downwind, base or final. If you happen to come from the upwind side (ie the right side), just turn final above circuit altitude, or outside what you consider to be the circuit distance, and turn final. Again, as long as you don't turn 1/4 mile final, crank and bank from the right side with a ground FSS present, it's pretty hard to get violated. People always use the 5 mile final because it makes them feel safe...ie you couldn't possibly be in the circuit because you've just entered the MF zone. Every aircraft and every pilot has a different circuit albeit at the same published altitude. An F-18 circuit is much bigger than a 152's. To summarize, call entering the MF, call final joining the circuit, call down and clear. Unless Lethbridge has some special requirement in the CFS for a complete left hand circuit, there is no way for this "ATC wannabe on a power trip" (no offense to good FSS) to write you up.