Resolute Bay Accident - Pilots Discussion Thread

[aurora]

it was already stated that the dme and radial info can be taken off the fms without being tuned in on the Nav's.

Two good/popular theories from the information we have.

1. A botched circling
2. Tracking VOR instead of ILS

Both theories require the stars to align for this accident to happen though, it's hard to imagine either scenario playing out the way it did under normal circumstances. Perhaps normal circumstances/operations weren't going on at that point in the approach (an emergency or abnormal operation that contributed)?
I personally can't see why else you would be that far off track on an ILS approach, assuming the equipment was fine.
As to what was going on in the cockpit, without the recorder information its educated guess work at best, mostly by people that don't fly the hardware or the company SOP's (myself included). I think this topic has been beat to death and it will be interesting to see if one of these was the cause or if its something completely different.
Not much else to do at this point but sit and wait for a press release or leak.
Good investigation work guys

[swordfish]

+1 Aurora. Good post!

[Navajo Flyer]

They have the ILS on the wrong runway!! It should be on the other end, so when the wind is off the water and being forced upslope, creating low ceilings and visibilities, you will atleast be landing into the wind. Therefore not requiring the circling approach.

[swordfish]

There is rising ground on the north end; it is unsuitable for an ILS approach. Also, the wind prevails from the North & Northwest there, so most of the time, the approach will be into wind, particularly thru the winter.

Yellowknife & Iqaluit have the same issue - when the wind comes off the water in seasonal changes, you have an upslope fog combined with a downwind landing. You simply have to deal with it as best you can.

Heavy jets don't like circling; in fact many 705 SOPs either prohibit it, or they have company circling limits that are so high above the straight-in minima that it makes it more feasible to approach straight in from the other end.

[another_try]

If the VOR wasn't tuned up, and they weren't circling, then maybe the avionics shit the bed at the wrong time, or perhaps runaway trim or something on short final.
Any 737-200 drivers care to share their theories?

Not sure if you've ever flown something with electric trim, but a runaway event does't put you one mile abeam the runway when you're allegedly flying a LOC or ILS approach.

[55+]

"There is rising ground on the north end; it is unsuitable for an ILS approach.........."

What part or section of TP-308 - Criterial for the design of instrument approach procedures do you base your statement on....... I will give you a hint, Volume 3.............

[swordfish]

Have you been there?

I know nothing about TP-308, and my comment wasn't based on those criteria. You would get (I think) GPWS warnings if the ILS approach was on the North end.

[55+]

That(TP-308) is what is used to design IAPs, being there makes no difference until the flyability flight check to confirm/revise/re-draw the procedure. There are so many variables into designs and associated terrain issue........ just suggesting.

[Jastapilot]

The accident aircraft, as far as I can remember, had no FMS, nor a GPWS. If the crew were getting requests for a radial/dme, they could have used the GPS for that info, or dialed in the VOR

http://www.airliners.net/photo/First-Ai ... 0651ae27a3

I think that panel on the captain's side is not an FMS but a GPS.

The overhead panel:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/First-Ai ... 9a9d1152bd
Note that in the top left corner the ability the switch to have a free gyro or slaved to magnetic.

For those of you who haven't realized, these 2 photos are from the actual accident aircraft, C-GNWN.

In my mind it's entirely possible the VOR was tuned in, thinking they had the ILS frequency up. Especially with the knowledge that the military was asking for radials/DME bearings prior to the crash.
How often have we all made a late change to the plan when something is thrown at us last minute? By that I mean, if I had an ILS tuned in, or thought I had, and once on the approach I had a G/S flag, it would be a fast and easy brief to re-brief for the LOC only approach and continue to the higher minumums(especially in an environment such as the Arctic airports)...if that was the case here, the LOC only minimums still would have put them into a hill if they were tracking the VOR.

Very, very insidious indeed.

Now top that off with no GPWS and whammo, you now have a whole bunch of links into the accident chain.

[swordfish]

The accident aircraft, as far as I can remember, had no FMS, nor a GPWS.

This is starting to make a little more sense, because on the track they appeared to be on, they would have passed right over a high hill and that would have almost certainly triggered a GPWS warning.

[r22captain]

For those of you who haven't realized, these 2 photos are from the actual accident aircraft, C-GNWN.

it's also a 7 year old picture.

[FICU]

Isn't GPWS mandatory on 705 machines?

[CD]

605.37 - Ground Proximity Warning System

[fbcs]

The accident aircraft, as far as I can remember, had no FMS, nor a GPWS. If the crew were getting requests for a radial/dme, they could have used the GPS for that info, or dialed in the VOR

http://www.airliners.net/photo/First-Ai ... 0651ae27a3

I think that panel on the captain's side is not an FMS but a GPS.

The overhead panel:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/First-Ai ... 9a9d1152bd
Note that in the top left corner the ability the switch to have a free gyro or slaved to magnetic.

For those of you who haven't realized, these 2 photos are from the actual accident aircraft, C-GNWN.

In my mind it's entirely possible the VOR was tuned in, thinking they had the ILS frequency up. Especially with the knowledge that the military was asking for radials/DME bearings prior to the crash.
How often have we all made a late change to the plan when something is thrown at us last minute? By that I mean, if I had an ILS tuned in, or thought I had, and once on the approach I had a G/S flag, it would be a fast and easy brief to re-brief for the LOC only approach and continue to the higher minumums(especially in an environment such as the Arctic airports)...if that was the case here, the LOC only minimums still would have put them into a hill if they were tracking the VOR.

Very, very insidious indeed.

Now top that off with no GPWS and whammo, you now have a whole bunch of links into the accident chain.

NWN had an FMS and a GPWS.

[FICU]

You can clearly see the GPWS panel on the lower left side of the F/O instrument panel.

[Jastapilot]

You can clearly see the GPWS panel on the lower left side of the F/O instrument panel.

I see a flap inhibit switch for dealing with a gear down flap 15 non normal condition...

[FICU]

Yes, the GPWS "SYS Test" button the GPWS "INOP" light and the GPWS flap/gear inhibit guarded switch.

See below although this pic shows separate flap and gear inhibit switches...
http://www.b737.org.uk/images/gpws.jpg

[CpnCrunch]

Am I correct in thinking that this plane had an older GPWS? And don't the newer EGPWS systems still give warnings even in the landing configuration if you're about to hit something?

[SAR_YQQ]

And don't the newer EGPWS systems still give warnings even in the landing configuration if you're about to hit something?

Like the runway? Even type 2 EGPWS just has a "Gear not down" warning (when a specified RADALT is met) - nothing else once the gear is extended.

[FICU]

While on approach, GPWS will only give a 500 foot(AGL) call while EGPWS will give 1000', 500' 100', 50', 40', 30', 20', and 10'. Both will give "Sink rate" calls as well.

[CpnCrunch]

So if you're on completely the wrong course with the gear down, headed towards a hill, EGPWS won't give you any warning at all?

[FICU]

I'm sure you would get the same altitude calls with EGPWS but GPWS will only give "500 feet" and "Sink rate". I don't think very many of us have been in a situation where we are configured for landing and heading towards rising terrain to give definitive answers though. As previously stated, the First Air Boeing did have TAWS which provides a visual GPS mapped display of the terrain ahead of the aircraft.

[turbo-prop]

EGPWS will tell let you know if your not landing at an airport in the EGPWS database (too low terrain). Have had it go off many times at new airports that haven't made the database update yet.

[Adiabatic]

For those that are interested here is a visual look at the ILS 35T for Resolute Bay. Breaking out of cloud at appx 1300AGL. Gives a perspective for what is in the area on the approach. Click on 720P for high def.

We set our radar altimeter at 200AGL, for minimums, and therefore did not get a 500ft call. We got a call at 200 feet.

Adiabatic

http://youtu.be/VSDhHjznH-M

[midwingcrisis]

Heard this morning our great subsidized media station on their program called "The National" this eve, has an exclusive interview with one of the survivors...heard a couple snips.