Oh ya --at a certain point Bambi becomes dinner and a just try to give a stranger advice -- do the words - "@#$! you" come to mind -- lmfaoooooo
Giving advice.
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Giving advice.
It comes down to muscle memory - if you set your muscle memory to push the props up on final then there will be considerable lag on the day when all the stars align and the props were left in course and a missed approach ensued but if you set your muscle memory to push them up as part of a go-around you have eliminated one thing to forget and built in a reaction to always get them to g/a setting - many might disagree -- but muscle memory is only your enemy when you move to a new type -- learning to reset it means you might just be a pilot after all --
Oh ya --at a certain point Bambi becomes dinner and a just try to give a stranger advice -- do the words - "@#$! you" come to mind -- lmfaoooooo
Oh ya --at a certain point Bambi becomes dinner and a just try to give a stranger advice -- do the words - "@#$! you" come to mind -- lmfaoooooo
Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight
ACTPA
ACTPA
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
Maybe my problem is I was taught in a different era where instructors demanded that the student had the neurons to remember simple three movement sequences such as mixture / Pitch / power and with that knowledge we did not have to beat the living hell out of our engines through high RPM during the descent because we may some day have to go around and would forget to set go around RPM with the pitch levers.I suspect that's actually one of the main reason schools are teaching pitch full fine on final.
To prevent Mixture/pitch/power throttles screw up with students. One set of levers being forgotten in the process of a go around or just pushed in the wrong sequence.
I notice there are a lot of posters here who bring turbo prop aircraft into these discussions......however few if any schools teach at the PPL and CPL level on turbines so the problem still comes from the flight instructor level.
The truth is it really will not make much difference how often some of us try and inject some reason into this flight training business because the real power lies in the flight schools and they can not possibly be at fault....
I notice there are more and more accidents happening where the crews failed to remember the basics and the airplanes tumbled out of the sky fully stalled right to the surface, could that have anything to the dumbing down of flight training?.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Giving advice.
It's SOP where I work to have props full fine on final. I disagree completely with this - mostly the noise (pax comfort) and like Cat said, having to add power to descend. However, I would be subject to disciplinary action for deviating from TC approved company procedures, so I will comply.
Sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
We have come to a point in aviation where TC approved SOP's no matter how stupid now over rides good airmanship?It's SOP where I work to have props full fine on final. I disagree completely with this - mostly the noise (pax comfort) and like Cat said, having to add power to descend. However, I would be subject to disciplinary action for deviating from TC approved company procedures, so I will comply
Who writes these SOP's?
ONCE AGAIN:::
I do not advance the propeller pitch lever / 's until I have reached the point in the approach where there is insufficient thrust to result in an increase in PRM.
Except for the reason there is fear the pilots can not remember how to set power should a go around be needed why in Gods name would you subject the passengers and those on the ground to excessive noise caused by props in full fine on the approach...you are going down fu.king hill.......which does not require power.
If you can not understand such a basic concept you would not be working for me.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Giving advice.
Don't fall into that trap. "Monkey see, monkey do" mentality. You can deviate from pretty much ANY SOP if you brief for it. "I'll take the props on touch down/flare......." Briefed. Besides, who wouldn't find props howling in fine pitch for a full minute or two before landing, distracting as hell? I would not even entertain the idea of putting my passengers through that.FlowPack wrote:It's SOP where I work to have props full fine on final. I disagree completely with this - mostly the noise (pax comfort) and like Cat said, having to add power to descend. However, I would be subject to disciplinary action for deviating from TC approved company procedures, so I will comply.
For what it's worth, with two healthy engines and passengers on board, I brief for climb power in the event of a missed. I tend to keep my speed fat till the runway is made, and max power is only a "push" away.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
It was a pleasure meeting you this summer Doc.Besides, who wouldn't find props howling in fine pitch for a full minute or two before landing, distracting as hell? I would not even entertain the idea of putting my passengers through that.
How did aviation get to here where we have a generation or more of pilots who truly can not use common sense because they have been programmed to think and act at the level of a monkey?
I might be swayed on some of this stuff....but this nonsense about beating the shit out of your ears and engines using unneeded RPM on the descent is just so stupid I am getting afraid to get in a commercial airplane and trust my life to maybe having a couple of SOP monkeys up front if anything out of the ordinary goes wrong.
Reading a few of the accidents and near accidents in the last few years where the airplane flew the pilots and passengers is truly sobering.
I have had a hard enough time trying to stay out of depression this last year without the added load of wondering how safe flying is these days because of this mindset.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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ruddersup?
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Re: Giving advice.
Piston twins -I normally don't increase pitch on final - makes no sense for high engine revs and noise - first it seems to upset the approach which is established, second passenger comfort, and third I'm a good neighbour.
Re: Giving advice.
Ok, I have to wade into this prop/mixture thing.
Many moons ago when I was a young pup , I was taking training on a twin. We did a gumps check on short final.. At that time, in that plane, with that instructor, I was told mixture full rich, props full fine just prior to that....Now, we got into the missed approach , overshoot,. first you go to climb power, well sort of . you brought power up, and then had to return and reduce it a bit and then bring the props back.all in cloud, close to the ground. It did not make sense to me as if the props were set up to climb RPM, when you added power all would be perfect.
In addition, if things did not go as planned in the overshoot, there was a procedure...Mixture, pitch, power...That did not make any sense to me as we had just done a GUMPS check.Why, with a less than stellar performing twin with an engine issue are we going through this whole process. I asked the question of my wise young instructor...and I was told that I was an idiot. what if I forgot to the set and check, the props and mixture...good grief...I was a idiot.
Then I got taken aside by a truly wise old veteran who had overheard the conversation, and he shared the wisdom that has gotten me through decades of flying safely.
In the olden days pilots left the mixture pretty much in a less than full rich postion and in the in the final approach they moved the mixtures just a bit richer, put the props into climb RPM....not full fine. No screaming props from putting them in fine at high power.
Now in the missed it was quite simple...Move the power MP to climb, Worry about pitch, speed, bank, and then when all is well and the plane cleaned up, touch up everything...Now this made sense.If there was a problem then the procedure also made sense. it was based on the idea that in a person's flying career they will do many many more normal overshoots that overshoots when the engine fails at the critical time...
But alas, it seems that between TC inspectors, DFTE's, and instructors, there are few that really understand things like misture, so we see poor old hot cylanders getting squirted with cold fuel, props screeaming at full fine from being put pushed forward at high power settings....accept it....or they will trot our the four letter S..word...and you cannot argue with safety.
The habits learned in the training enviorment die hard.
Not sure what to make of the comments from the guys about turbines..I guess there is a message somewhere in there.
Many moons ago when I was a young pup , I was taking training on a twin. We did a gumps check on short final.. At that time, in that plane, with that instructor, I was told mixture full rich, props full fine just prior to that....Now, we got into the missed approach , overshoot,. first you go to climb power, well sort of . you brought power up, and then had to return and reduce it a bit and then bring the props back.all in cloud, close to the ground. It did not make sense to me as if the props were set up to climb RPM, when you added power all would be perfect.
In addition, if things did not go as planned in the overshoot, there was a procedure...Mixture, pitch, power...That did not make any sense to me as we had just done a GUMPS check.Why, with a less than stellar performing twin with an engine issue are we going through this whole process. I asked the question of my wise young instructor...and I was told that I was an idiot. what if I forgot to the set and check, the props and mixture...good grief...I was a idiot.
Then I got taken aside by a truly wise old veteran who had overheard the conversation, and he shared the wisdom that has gotten me through decades of flying safely.
In the olden days pilots left the mixture pretty much in a less than full rich postion and in the in the final approach they moved the mixtures just a bit richer, put the props into climb RPM....not full fine. No screaming props from putting them in fine at high power.
Now in the missed it was quite simple...Move the power MP to climb, Worry about pitch, speed, bank, and then when all is well and the plane cleaned up, touch up everything...Now this made sense.If there was a problem then the procedure also made sense. it was based on the idea that in a person's flying career they will do many many more normal overshoots that overshoots when the engine fails at the critical time...
But alas, it seems that between TC inspectors, DFTE's, and instructors, there are few that really understand things like misture, so we see poor old hot cylanders getting squirted with cold fuel, props screeaming at full fine from being put pushed forward at high power settings....accept it....or they will trot our the four letter S..word...and you cannot argue with safety.
The habits learned in the training enviorment die hard.
Not sure what to make of the comments from the guys about turbines..I guess there is a message somewhere in there.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
My disconnect between the new age teaching the monkey kind of approach and teaching a human approach gets skewed when the word " safety " gets thrown into the discussion.But alas, it seems that between TC inspectors, DFTE's, and instructors, there are few that really understand things like misture, so we see poor old hot cylanders getting squirted with cold fuel, props screeaming at full fine from being put pushed forward at high power settings....accept it....or they will trot our the four letter S..word...and you cannot argue with safety.
When I am flying my aircraft on a pre planned profile with a pre planned set of actions to follow should a change in flight profile become necessary and my aircraft is being flown in the proper attitude / airspeed / power for the moment.........how if fu.k is that unsafe?
Maybe someone has miss read their so called laws of learning stuff and think "" teach it wrong the first time for safety "" is the way to go?The habits learned in the training enviorment die hard.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Giving advice.
My one cent worth (I'm from northern Ontario)
Re: The propeller questions; It’s the flight manual folks. An SOP cannot override what engine and aircraft manufactures recommended normal and emergency procedures are, as recorded in the flight manual. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no AFM that will tell you to do anything with the props before landing but to move them to the full fine position. And this is for liability reasons.
In any accident investigation if any of the pilot duties can be proven to be not performed as per AFM (for instances rpm at cruise setting after an overshoot attempt – or gear left up/down) then the accident is more often than not pilot error regardless of whatever other problems the pilot(s) may have been experiencing.
That is why it has to be taught that way during flight training and ride renewals etc., to keep the routine within AFM parameters (even if parameters don’t make sense sometimes). Once you and your crew have the experience level to cut corners for better wear and tear of aircraft, crew and passengers, I think that is fine to a point, because you don’t ever want to forget the basics of the AFM. That is why on most aircraft type, or IFR renewals, there is always a missed approach or go-around with a simulated engine out. It’s good practice!
I had a pilot once take a goose through the windshield of a Navajo and knocked him out cold on an approach into Vancouver. The co-pilot took over the landing without further incident, but was cited by TC for having landed and shutdown with both props in cruise rpm.
To solve some of these issues and to comply with the AFM, on final approach to landing (especially with a CVR on board), we would increase rpm slightly from cruise to climb power rpm (piston or turbine) in the event of a missed approach and to keep within the AFM. Power above the gate (throttle or propeller) was for take offs and emergencies only. With that slight rpm increase (usually with a power reduction) the CVR would pick-up the rpm increase covering our butt’s under a worse case scenario and investigation. Added benefits are that this would also alert the crew that we were on final approach and experienced northern air travelers are also reassured of the sound of increased rpm in preparation for the landing. At minimums with visual confirmation of the runway environment the call would be “visual – landing – props full” if it was shitty conditions ie. winds, rain, snow, etc. Or if good VFR the call would be “visual – landing – your props” which was meant that the non-flying pilot would slowly advance the propeller levers at touch down until the nose (tail) settled.
As a side note, I was also taught to expect a go-around at any stage of the landing. In IFR it helped me tremendously to anticipate every part of the missed approach procedure as if that was what I was going to happen. Then if we get visual, perfect we land. Otherwise all I have to do is advance power to maximum climb power (prop already set) call gear and flaps up and I’m on my way home to see momma again. Have you ever seen a junior pilots eyes’ in the event of a real missed approach? Nine times out of ten their eyes will be round as saucers not prepared for it at all even they may have briefed the missed approach. Even the top of the line pilots if flying the missed will usually ask the non-flying pilot to brief again the missed approach procedure, which is fine, but if the shit hits the fan at the point in is nice to have memorized and visualized the missed approach well before it happens.
Safe flying amigos.
Re: The propeller questions; It’s the flight manual folks. An SOP cannot override what engine and aircraft manufactures recommended normal and emergency procedures are, as recorded in the flight manual. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no AFM that will tell you to do anything with the props before landing but to move them to the full fine position. And this is for liability reasons.
In any accident investigation if any of the pilot duties can be proven to be not performed as per AFM (for instances rpm at cruise setting after an overshoot attempt – or gear left up/down) then the accident is more often than not pilot error regardless of whatever other problems the pilot(s) may have been experiencing.
That is why it has to be taught that way during flight training and ride renewals etc., to keep the routine within AFM parameters (even if parameters don’t make sense sometimes). Once you and your crew have the experience level to cut corners for better wear and tear of aircraft, crew and passengers, I think that is fine to a point, because you don’t ever want to forget the basics of the AFM. That is why on most aircraft type, or IFR renewals, there is always a missed approach or go-around with a simulated engine out. It’s good practice!
I had a pilot once take a goose through the windshield of a Navajo and knocked him out cold on an approach into Vancouver. The co-pilot took over the landing without further incident, but was cited by TC for having landed and shutdown with both props in cruise rpm.
To solve some of these issues and to comply with the AFM, on final approach to landing (especially with a CVR on board), we would increase rpm slightly from cruise to climb power rpm (piston or turbine) in the event of a missed approach and to keep within the AFM. Power above the gate (throttle or propeller) was for take offs and emergencies only. With that slight rpm increase (usually with a power reduction) the CVR would pick-up the rpm increase covering our butt’s under a worse case scenario and investigation. Added benefits are that this would also alert the crew that we were on final approach and experienced northern air travelers are also reassured of the sound of increased rpm in preparation for the landing. At minimums with visual confirmation of the runway environment the call would be “visual – landing – props full” if it was shitty conditions ie. winds, rain, snow, etc. Or if good VFR the call would be “visual – landing – your props” which was meant that the non-flying pilot would slowly advance the propeller levers at touch down until the nose (tail) settled.
As a side note, I was also taught to expect a go-around at any stage of the landing. In IFR it helped me tremendously to anticipate every part of the missed approach procedure as if that was what I was going to happen. Then if we get visual, perfect we land. Otherwise all I have to do is advance power to maximum climb power (prop already set) call gear and flaps up and I’m on my way home to see momma again. Have you ever seen a junior pilots eyes’ in the event of a real missed approach? Nine times out of ten their eyes will be round as saucers not prepared for it at all even they may have briefed the missed approach. Even the top of the line pilots if flying the missed will usually ask the non-flying pilot to brief again the missed approach procedure, which is fine, but if the shit hits the fan at the point in is nice to have memorized and visualized the missed approach well before it happens.
Safe flying amigos.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Giving advice.
Learning is a continuum and works best when going from the simple to the complex. Unfortunately this thread has now followed the all too predicatable pattern. A legitimate comment on how line pilots flying commercial aircraft should think about what hey are doing has once again truned into an instructor bashing exercise 
.
When I fly a piston twin I bump the mixture a bit richer on final and leave the props at cruise untill Vref on short final when the props are allready on the fine pitch stops and you can ease the prop levers up to full fine without any change in RPM.
When I teach the guy who has never flown anything bigger than a C172 how to fly a twin I start with having the props go to 2400 RPM, which is the minimum RPM which will still allow you to apply full MP on the aircraft I teach in, and the mixture full rich on final. The reason for this is that the poor guys are alleady task saturated and I want them to concentrate on flying the aircraft on final not fiddling with the levers. Once the guy/gal has gotten some significant experience I then recommend he/she consider going to the props forward just before the flare method.
My initial attempts to teach that at the beginning always failed because on the unexpected overshoot the student would revert to his C 172 muscle memory and just shove the throttles up with out touching the mixtures or props.
Go ahead and bash away, but I have tune out some regular posters just the way I tune out the slighly louder buzzing of the props at 2400 RPM
. When I fly a piston twin I bump the mixture a bit richer on final and leave the props at cruise untill Vref on short final when the props are allready on the fine pitch stops and you can ease the prop levers up to full fine without any change in RPM.
When I teach the guy who has never flown anything bigger than a C172 how to fly a twin I start with having the props go to 2400 RPM, which is the minimum RPM which will still allow you to apply full MP on the aircraft I teach in, and the mixture full rich on final. The reason for this is that the poor guys are alleady task saturated and I want them to concentrate on flying the aircraft on final not fiddling with the levers. Once the guy/gal has gotten some significant experience I then recommend he/she consider going to the props forward just before the flare method.
My initial attempts to teach that at the beginning always failed because on the unexpected overshoot the student would revert to his C 172 muscle memory and just shove the throttles up with out touching the mixtures or props.
Go ahead and bash away, but I have tune out some regular posters just the way I tune out the slighly louder buzzing of the props at 2400 RPM
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
I do not recall any AFM that stated a point on the approach before landing where they recommended you select full fine position.Re: The propeller questions; It’s the flight manual folks. An SOP cannot override what engine and aircraft manufactures recommended normal and emergency procedures are, as recorded in the flight manual. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no AFM that will tell you to do anything with the props before landing but to move them to the full fine position. And this is for liability reasons.
I have seen pilots go to full fine before turning final though...which did produce a significant amount of noise, with no added safety factor that I can identify.
Let me reminisce a bit here and go back the the days of flying the DC3, the perfect approach and landing for me was to slowly decrease MP to a given setting at cruise RPM " 2050 " as I started the descent from whatever altitude.
And never adjust M.P. except to compensate for altitude until landing was assured and two power settings were selected...throttles closed...propellers full fine.
Did a few missed approaches over the years as well and can not recall forgetting how to set climb power when the time to do so came.
As to initial training on a twin engine airplane I was taught the way I still do it with regard to prop pitch settings.......but that was back in the dark ages when the people teaching had no idea of how to fly an airplane safely.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Giving advice.
Nephlim...some of your comments dont seem to be correct, but as BPF feels this is "truning" (love that word) into instructor bashing, and as you just may be an instructor, I will leave it at that.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Giving advice.
I couldn't agree more. Everyone who learned to fly after JFK was shot is a monkey with no common sense who cannot think for themselves. The fact that accidents simply never occurred back in the golden days of aviation proves this.. . wrote: How did aviation get to here where we have a generation or more of pilots who truly can not use common sense because they have been programmed to think and act at the level of a monkey?
I might be swayed on some of this stuff....but this nonsense about beating the shit out of your ears and engines using unneeded RPM on the descent is just so stupid I am getting afraid to get in a commercial airplane and trust my life to maybe having a couple of SOP monkeys up front if anything out of the ordinary goes wrong.
Reading a few of the accidents and near accidents in the last few years where the airplane flew the pilots and passengers is truly sobering.
I have had a hard enough time trying to stay out of depression this last year without the added load of wondering how safe flying is these days because of this mindset.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
I guess I am just a has been in your mind ditar and have no clue about the history of aviation.
That could be true, but how do you square the fact that I not only was a certified flight instructor in the late fifties until the mid sixties, I also owned a fairly large flight school in the mid eighties to the early nineties....both fixed and rotary wing.
Aahhh...and I held flight training approvals on several continents up until I retired in 2005.
Did I get dumber as my career progressed?
That could be true, but how do you square the fact that I not only was a certified flight instructor in the late fifties until the mid sixties, I also owned a fairly large flight school in the mid eighties to the early nineties....both fixed and rotary wing.
Aahhh...and I held flight training approvals on several continents up until I retired in 2005.
Did I get dumber as my career progressed?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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yousuckmonday
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Re: Giving advice.
Hasn't it already gone past the point of locking this thread down?
Maybe we could start one titled "Taking Advice"
Maybe we could start one titled "Taking Advice"
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
Maybe it's time I take another time out as I am getting to aggressive again on these subjects. 
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
Oh well at least the guy who started this thread thinks I am worth listening toMe. I am a far more conservative flier from reading this board. I don't advance prop levers until the throttles are idle because of H and Cat Driver. I always look for a wheel before touchdown fixed or movable because of 'H'. In general, I am far more willing to say no because of Cat Driver.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Giving advice.
On the contrary. I often pay heed to what you and many of the other "veterans" on here have to say, and have used it to challenge my own way of doing things on many occasions. I'm just tired of the blanket accusations that pilots of my generation are all monkeys who are incapable of independent thought because they don't necessarily do things your way. It's a theme that comes up time and time again though countless topics.. . wrote:I guess I am just a has been in your mind ditar and have no clue about the history of aviation.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
No where have I said all pilots are monkeys.
My comments are far to many are being trained to follow Sop' s and rote learning with not enough how to fly an aircraft outside of SOP's and think ahead of the airplane.
Anyhow these forums are a poor means of communication due to the lack of one on one visual contact.
My comments are far to many are being trained to follow Sop' s and rote learning with not enough how to fly an aircraft outside of SOP's and think ahead of the airplane.
Anyhow these forums are a poor means of communication due to the lack of one on one visual contact.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Giving advice.
No argument there. I'd rather discuss it with you over a coffee.. . wrote:Anyhow these forums are a poor means of communication due to the lack of one on one visual contact.
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Beefitarian
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I'm not out to get you Charles.
Last edited by Beefitarian on Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
O.K. Beef, you sort of got me there.
But technically I only said "one generation of pilots. " not all pilots.
Considering the hundreds of posts I make I am bound to fu.ck up once in a while.
But technically I only said "one generation of pilots. " not all pilots.
Considering the hundreds of posts I make I am bound to fu.ck up once in a while.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
Ditar, I would be pleased to have coffee with you any time.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Beefitarian
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Re: Giving advice.
You see where he was coming from though.
You're right about this for sure.
You're right about this for sure.
Also you can't hear tones and cool machine gun and engine impression noises, etc.. . wrote:Anyhow these forums are a poor means of communication due to the lack of one on one visual contact.
