The "PFO" Letter

[Doc]

Hey most of you have received one!

Wouldn't it be great if companies sending them out would have the "balls" to list the reasons why you are being asked to FO?
Wouldn't take much to say..."Your experience is not what we're looking for..." "We just didn't like you in the interview...." "We got a bad reference...." "You're a total knob......" "We never hire anybody who has worked for XYZ airlines......" "Next time wear a tie to an interview....." "Stop bothering us, we won't hire YOU....."

I know....they don't have the time to send out anything more than a form letter.....but wouldn't it be nice?

You guys get the drift....

[baron_dude]

Apparently it becomes a huge legal liability. These days you can cry discrimination for just about anything.

[Darkwing Duck]

Discrimination can come from something like "We did not hire you because you are from Antarctica and also an openly gay epileptic midget amputee and we hate, nor will ever hire anyone, from Antarctica, even though you were the best qualified" Where is the discrimination if they mention something about what Doc stated, the bad ref, the qualifications, the appearance of your unpressed jeans and t-shirt you wore to the interview? Where it becomes grey, IMO, of putting on a PFO letter is the fact of refusing someone who has tattoos on their face and those god awful loops in the ear lobe yet be fully qualified to do the job.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Doc, you can reapply to Air Canada in six months, try not to take it personally. Go back to work, get some more MPIC in the books and they may take you in in 2012! It'll be your year buddy! Chin up!

[photofly]

Where is the discrimination if they mention something about what Doc stated, the bad ref, the qualifications, the appearance of your unpressed jeans and t-shirt you wore to the interview?

Because, sometimes, you'll want to reject someone for reasons that you don't want to have to make public.

Therefore, to avoid that situation standing out as an exception, it's a good policy not to explain the reason that anyone is rejected.

[trey kule]

Well Doc, we as a company tried what you suggest . It did not work. Let me share it with you all. I dont expect any changes, but maybe.
I have taken a bit of literary license, but the essence is factual.

1. The ad.....Required ATPL and 500 hours PIC on type ...Noted as MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS
2. literally hundreds of resumes where the applicant did not have the ATPL, or/and had never flown the type.
3. Plan A. ..first 50 or so PFO Something along the line of Thank your for your interest in our company. After reviewing your resume it does not appear you meet the requirements stated in our advertisement. We wish you all the best in the future..
4. Now, at about 5 -6 mins per resume, this has taken a whole day just to sort through the people who could not read, or decided to ignore it.
5. And then the responses start coming in to the PFO letters:
a. I read the requirements, sorry for bothering you but I just had to throw an application in
b. It is my dream to work for your company and would ask you to reconsider my applications...of course they have not a blue's clue about the company, or they would have noted from the website where applications are suppossed to be sent, and possibly addressed them to the correct person (by name)
c. I am willing to pay my own training, sign a bond , work for scraps of food. Some of them are truly amazing, and I almost asked for a picture of their wife.
d. I had recently applied for a position and am following up to see if it has been received...etc.etc...From someone that got a PFO letter.
another hour or so going through the responses to the PFO emails . The torque guage is well over red line, particularily from the ones that said they read and understood the requirements..but just had to throw in an app.
Plan B.
A nice response to the responses from the PFO letter responses in most cases.
The next 50 or so...Dear Sir or Madam.
You application does not appear to meet our minimum requirements. Please check our job ad and website, and if you meet the requirements please re apply.
In retrospect, this was a dumb PFO letter...About 2 dozen replies came back from this PFO letter...typical was " I realize I dont meet the requirements, but I am resubmitting my resume for your consideration. I am not making this up.
I am now promissing the nice lady in HR a long weekend, dinner for her and her husband as compensation for working late, and trying, my best to explain that pilots really are pretty much normal people.
Plan C.
Quick scan of resume..Push the delete button, and get on with looking for qualified candidtate. Still results in "follow up" calls from unqualified candidates despite the "no calls please" Front office lady is now demanding flowers and chocolates to reach parity with HR lady. Asking me how pilots get licenses when they can not read and understand...not her words exactly, but courtesy and deference to the gentle sex prevents me from using her exact words.
The response.
On avcanada a thread starts out wondering why candidates are not given the real reasons

Let me try and answer that...
If you do not meet the minimum requirements, and you go ahead and ignore that and apply anyway. You do not deserve any consideration. You are intentionally wasting other people's times. I do not care if it only took 5 secs to scan your resume.Your lack of respect and consideration for other people is not a personality characteristic we think important to our company.
If it says qualified candidates will be contacted, and you are not qualified, do not expect an answer...see above.
If it says no phone calls, it means everyone. You are not the exception.
If you get a PFO letter, that is the end..It is not an invitation to negotiate with the company.
So...it is just easier , in the long run for a company to just push the delete button

I recognize that some pilots are desparately trying to find work, and like the lotto winners we have all heard about, they have heard about some 250 hour pilot who ran into the Air Canada HR person at Tim's, and 6 months later is Captatin of a 757. So they just fire out the old resumes regardless of qualifications. They are constantly being advised to carpet bomb, and to fire in the old resume even if they dont meet the qualifications. If you feel you are that lucky, buy a lotto ticket and when you win you can buy your own jet to fly around in.

If I can spin this positive. "doing everything" to find a job is generally not the way.. Target companies where you meet their hiring requirments, and send a very nice letter to the CP (by name). dont gush. You would be surprised how many companies will respond to that. (note...if you meet there hiring requirements). Then follow up every two or three months. dont be cute...keep it professional.
to many pilots our there carpet bombing and then as soon as they get any job they are off and out of the market. A pilot that is focused on your company, and who means it , stands out.


anyways, doc to the orginal thread objective...how is this.

Dear Sir or Madam
Despite wasting my time by submitting a resume that indicated you did not meet the minimum qualifications, and ignoring the please do not call request in our ad, we are taking further time to respond with the respect and consideration we wish you had demonstrated towards us.
We regret we can not offer you employment at this time as we actually were able to hire someone who was qualified for the job.

Hows that....the suggestions from HR here were something along the line of.

Please @#$! Off....strong letter to follow.

I am , of course, being harsh here. It is necessary because some people do not get it when you try to be polite. .Perfectly OK for them to be disrespectful and waste other people's time, but other people should be aware that we were all there once, and so bend over backwards to take time for them.
And yes, we have a no hire list based on where training was taken, certain companies worked for etc. Experience has shown us that pilots from these places are generally not worth hiring. I recognize there are exceptions, but with the very large pool of unemployed pilots, why take risk the hiring and training costs when there are others out there.

[Doc]

trey, well bloody written! I've come to expect nothing less from you, but this one's a classic! I must agree with you. The dumbest creature on the face of the planet is the low time, illiterate, unemployed pilot! Some of these clowns really should be sent up thin trees armed with several drinks and chainsaws! Thin the herd. Please.

I think, "Please @#$! OFF.." is perfect.

[Adam Oke]

Everyone complains about not getting any response. Now, you get a PFO and want to complain about not articulating emotion/reason in the decision? Be happy you got a sign of life. I was, and still am appreciative of a PFO, regardless of detail. It's nice to know it at least reached the inbox before it went to the trash -- I have no issue with a copy and paste PFO.

[scopiton]

it could be one of those, I don't talk for this particular case

mindset not in par with company culture
a ridiculous hideous tie
piercing
bad mouthwash
too much perfume
not enough shower
showing up late
showing up late with no excuses
I don't like critics
I am who I am and I won't change
a biased look in your eyes
I'm always right
it was the F/O's mistake
sop is for monkeys
mushy handshake
those legs are boring, even 4 hrs I cannot stand that
i'm always ready to get the job done whatever it takes
no handshake
too relax on the chair
my dad is richer than you
I am smarter than you think
my experience is worth more than you think
I didn't know I was overweight
we all die one day anyway
I don't have much friends
I have no hobby
answering before the end of the question
interrupting the interviewer
staring at your shoes when talking
talking too low
talking talking talking and talking
hum and haw
never got to figure out this f***g plane
an insisting glare on the beautiful Hr lady
I hate sim cession but If you ask me I'll do it
being professional is giving attitude to others
I'm a winner not a looser...
I deserve this job

and so on...

[KK7]

I think it has been summed up between potential discrimination lawsuits (or even the risk of someone trying to take them to court even though they have nothing), and the excellent post Trey wrote.

But I wanted to add one more reason why it's not always possible to put a reason. I've done some hiring and sometimes you get several good candidates, all very well qualified, and all of them can do the job quite well. No particular reason not to hire any of them - except you only have one spot to fill, so I gotta pick one. I don't have a reason to hire any of the other candidates, nothing negative, no constructive criticism, except that I just had to pick one.

[ogc]

I just dont like the new HR practice of always putting "we will keep your resume on file for future consideration"

They know its a lie, we know its a lie, so whats the point?

[coreydotcom]

"We got a bad reference...."

Someone correct me if I am wrong (which I very well may be) but I was under the impression it is a very bad idea to give someone a bad reference (i.e. legal reasons).

I've had someone call me for a reference for someone I would never give a good reference to (for?) and my response: "Yes, I did work at XYZ with Jane Doe from 200X to 2008 and I have no comment about her personality, her work, her work ethic, etc. and that's all I'm going to say about Jane. Thank you have a nice day"

Without saying anything bad about Jane, I pretty much gave a bad reference.

[Dhc6to8]

This is being a little harsh isn't it? What do you expect from young wannabees when they witness a guy who doesn't have the requirements or time in the log book get on with a company because he knows somebody there or has good connections? They fire out resumes left and right.... you should see it as a compliment that they are interested in empoyment at your joint...
Years ago, I drove from Prince Rupert BC to Moncton NB looking for work.... ended up being invited in by a Chief Pilot who had clearly told me that I didn't meet their requirements... he sat me down, got me a coffee, called his wife and told her to prepare a room and go grocery shopping because they were having a guest later in the evening.... I had been 3 months underway living in my truck and stopped at every company I could find to hand a resume in.... most told me to @#$! off.... well, in Cowtown (on the way back from Moncton to Rupert) I was actually sat down, talked to and treated like a human being and given the big tour of the hangar etc.... later that night I got a shower and meal, a bed and a good nights rest. A month later the chief pilot called me and told me that anybody who wants a job that bad to drive clear cross Canada, can have one at his company... and so it all began. Funny twist is that years later, I ended up hiring the same guy who was nice enough to help me get started.... moral of the story is, don't discount people no matter which stage of the game they are at... chances are you were just like them at one time or another in your career. Canada's aviation industry is permanently poisoined by a system that dictates time on type and pay your dues... break tha cycle and help another by hiring a quality person who wants to work for you regardless of his/her experience... every industry needs to invest in younger people to secure the experience level for the future... so plan ahead rather than sending them away.... a guy with a great attitude and ambition and 200 hours can fly just as well as some arse with a horrible attitude and a 1000 hours in his log book... if you don't want to scan resumes, then don't advertise positions.
Get over yourselves
6to8

[Changes in Latitudes]

This is being a little harsh isn't it? What do you expect from young wannabees when they witness a guy who doesn't have the requirements or time in the log book get on with a company because he knows somebody there or has good connections? They fire out resumes left and right.... you should see it as a compliment that they are interested in empoyment at your joint...
Years ago, I drove from Prince Rupert BC to Moncton NB looking for work.... ended up being invited in by a Chief Pilot who had clearly told me that I didn't meet their requirements... he sat me down, got me a coffee, called his wife and told her to prepare a room and go grocery shopping because they were having a guest later in the evening.... I had been 3 months underway living in my truck and stopped at every company I could find to hand a resume in.... most told me to @#$! off.... well, in Cowtown (on the way back from Moncton to Rupert) I was actually sat down, talked to and treated like a human being and given the big tour of the hangar etc.... later that night I got a shower and meal, a bed and a good nights rest. A month later the chief pilot called me and told me that anybody who wants a job that bad to drive clear cross Canada, can have one at his company... and so it all began. Funny twist is that years later, I ended up hiring the same guy who was nice enough to help me get started.... moral of the story is, don't discount people no matter which stage of the game they are at... chances are you were just like them at one time or another in your career. Canada's aviation industry is permanently poisoined by a system that dictates time on type and pay your dues... break tha cycle and help another by hiring a quality person who wants to work for you regardless of his/her experience... every industry needs to invest in younger people to secure the experience level for the future... so plan ahead rather than sending them away.... a guy with a great attitude and ambition and 200 hours can fly just as well as some arse with a horrible attitude and a 1000 hours in his log book... if you don't want to scan resumes, then don't advertise positions.
Get over yourselves
6to8

Easy now...You have to understand some the posting demographics of the website. Some are quite experienced but with experience comes some level of distance from the entry level flyers and a nice degree of irritability when they see things not going exactly how they like (patience gets lost in a hurry). A lot of people haven't interviewed for jobs in a long, long time. Humble pie hasn't been served a la carte at their local diners for years.

When I was on the employer's side of the hiring desk, I loved it. I remembered when I was on the opposite end, I remembered how hard it was. I was being paid to get the best possible candidate for the job and I wasn't being paid to be a prick about it. Every email was returned, if someone asked for feedback, they got it. If someone said some stupid things in the interview, they were questioned on it and were made aware of how we would prefer to have things done. If they volunteered to pay for training, they received my thoughts on that. Not this answer of "hmmmm, yes" then followed by a large amount of writing that you'll never even see. The company was well aware that I was doing this and appreciated it. At the end of the day, you still want to leave the candidate with somewhat of a positive experience, much like the one you had in Calgary. Even if you get 500 emails, you do your best with the resources available. People will get beat down enough in this industry, I didn't need to add to it. Besides, that's what avcanada is for anyway.

As for applying and wasting people's time when you may not have the qualifications? Do it professionally, do it with maturity and have a bit of a clue about the position. I wouldn't be upset to see your resume across my desk. I think it was XSBANK who recommended that you apply for any and every position that you'd like. Even if you don't meet qualifications. That's coming from a guy who was once personally editing people's resumes for free on this website. I'd trust him.

Do not worry about getting some CP's panties in a knot. If he is the type of person that will fly off the handle for having to read an email from someone that didn't have 500 hours on type, he was bound to get his panties in a knot over something else that day anyway. Might as well be you; and who knows, perhaps no applicant had 500 hours on type!

[trey kule]

Do not worry about getting some CP's panties in a knot. If he is the type of person that will fly off the handle for having to read an email from someone that didn't have 500 hours on type, he was bound to get his panties in a knot over something else that day anyway. Might as well be you; and who knows, perhaps no applicant had 500 hours on type!

This is great advice, and I would like to expand on it.
Perhaps the problem is that there is not one email to read, but literally hundreds...I expect that kind of reasoning from someone who has not experienced the hiring end, but you posted you had. Spend four or five hours sorting through email after email, and your patience wears thin. Again, very odd with your stated hiring experience, you never mentioned that. sometimes it is a bit hard for someone to understand that they are not the only one ignoring what was requested..and what is just a minute or two to them is hours to other poeple.

Do not worry about getting some CP's panties in a knot

Absolutely correct. As a matter of fact, dont worry about anyone else but yourself. I know it is an attitude that we look for in potential new hires, so it is good to confirm it right up front. Saves us lots of time and money in the long run.

perhaps no applicant had 500 hours on type

! yeah...right!. You must be referring to the extreme and desparate shortage right now of anything but low time pilots looking for employment Now there are a few of us old guys who get together to sip prune juice and discuss things like the best brand of hearing aid, breed of seeing eye dog, how to untwist a panty-knot...that type of thing. But never have I heard a CP, or anyone else who has been involved in hiring give the type of advice you are giving.

In any event, my whole point was hopefully to convince pilots, particularily low time ones starting out, to focus on a few companies.
find out all you can about them. forget the road trips or resume carpet bombing, and go and visit them, or send them a letter ..not an email. Keep it simple. And ask them poliitely if they would mind if you checked in with them once a month..You would be surprised , I think , at the positive responses you will recieve in most cases if you take this approach.

But heck, People win the lotto every week, so maybe I am wrong.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Now you can say you've heard it from two people

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=47666&start=25

I'm glad this stuff is useful - just remember it is only one of our tools to find a job. Probably more than any other industry, personal appearances are important; apply for every job that you WANT, not just those that you think you can qualify for. That's saved me in a few career moves in the past.

I got 2 jobs in my history that "I was not qualified for." I happen to think that anyone can be qualified for any position, given the willingness of the trainer and the ability to absorb by the candidate. A lot of times the employer doesn't really know what he wants besides a warm body to do the work, so why not give him more choice?

Bottom line and to repeat myself, there are no rules for this, do what works best for you.

[trey kule]

Well, it looks like I was certainly all turned around on this.

I particularily enjoyed this part

I happen to think that anyone can be qualified for any position

,

What a ridiculous statement to make.....it is a question of what can be vs what is. Possible...not probable. You could hire a random kid out of macdonalds , teach them to fly, get them ratings. give them experience, and yes they will eventually be qualified for that 777 position....Continuing on with that line of reasoning, one should be able to respond to a job ad for a pilot without actually even having a license...Where do you draw the line? Actually, that might have been a bad example as there is a good chance the kid at macdonalds has a CPL, and a diploma in Aviation management from some flight college.

I like XSbank. I have read the threads of his on CV, and agree with almost all of it. I feel a bit bad taking exception to a post of his being posted by someone else., but that is just so feel good, super duper positive, touchie feelie that I think people some want to believe it.

The sense I get C.in L., is you are determined to defend the practice of resume carpet bombing, and ignoring job posting requirements.
So be it. Possibly it was because of your exceptional experience when you were hiring. For the rest of us we will just have to continue to endure wasting time going through resume after resume from unqualified applicants...or find a viable alternative to advertising for pilots.

[Changes in Latitudes]

The sense I get C.in L., is you are determined to defend the practice of resume carpet bombing, and ignoring job posting requirements.
So be it. Possibly it was because of your exceptional experience when you were hiring. For the rest of us we will just have to continue to endure wasting time going through resume after resume from unqualified applicants...or find a viable alternative to advertising for pilots.

Me:

As for applying and wasting people's time when you may not have the qualifications? Do it professionally, do it with maturity and have a bit of a clue about the position.

I thought that implied some form of discretion, not particularly carpet bombing. It's always an extreme with you, isn't it? Anyway, I think we've both got our views on the subject, they've been explained ad nauseum. I'll be happy to agree to disagree with you here and move on.

[Rowdy]

There is a difference of being just shy of the requirements.. and then being drasticly underqualified that many people dont seem to understand. Therein lies the problem. A simple auto-generated reply from the companys HR e-mail when a resume was sent should suffice. I dont even think a PFO letter is neccesary. You WILL be contacted if they're interested. If not, move along.

I would not expect anyone to respond to the random pleas for help from incredibly low time pilots for higher end/niche market jobs. ESPECIALLY when the resumes/CV's arent directed at the correct person and arent specifically targeting the company. Letters from the unwashed/unproffesional masses should be politely filed into the round cabinet off the end of the desk and rightfully so. However, the entry level companies should simply expect to be carpet bombed and have measures in place to deal with this also.

However, the companies looking for someone with 500hrs on some corporate machine that there happen to be only 2 or 3 of in all of the country are out of their rightful minds as well. Throw a 'current PPC required' into the mix and you deserve every last resume you get from the lower ranks!

I will reccomend to everyone to NOT carpet bomb all the companies, NOT blindly call every last CP and NOT show up completely unnancouced.. Have some respect, some dignity and some courtesy.

Ohh and for the posted who mentioned bad references. It is considered libelous and slanderous to give one in this great democractically socialist country we call home. Besides, this industry is still small enough that word quickly gets out via rumour/gossip anyway

[Panama Jack]

Is it just me, or does anybody else find the name "PFO" (knowing what it means) a bit offensive with regards to these letters. I take it as an indication (likely without any accuracy) on the poor level of professionalism or personality of colleagues.

If somebody gets a reply (which is an acknowledgement) which does not meet their hopes (a job offer or an interview invitation) they call it a "PFO Letter."

If somebody does not get any reply (which is sadly common) then they complain about the lack of politeness of a company who are not even willing to say "Application received, thank you."

So WTH? I know that I am the best applicant out there and companies are making a terrible mistake by not hiring me, but I also accept that they are too busy to realize their fatal mistake and write me a personalized, hand written "Dear Jack" response letter. Therefore I still prefer the mass-mailed reply.

[trey kule]

Well, it may have being just you, but now there are at least two of us....I never really gave its meaning any thought before.

But you are right.... sometimes there are just one or two openings and several people with exactly the same suitability. I always hate sending out letters to the others, as they are people we wish we could hire.

BTW....With some of the applications I have seen , the reply could be reduced to the last two letters.....but then I guess I fail to understand the respect employers are supposed to give to those who disrespect them, because.....well, its perfectly OK to disrespect an employer's requests if it interferes with your personal goals.

The whole thing is that most people simply either do not, or refuse to recognize that they are not the only ones submitting an unqualified resume, or making that phone call, "just to follow up". They fail to understand the cumulative effect of all these people who think it only takes a couple of minutes..It takes hours.

I notice more ads in the job forum are making the employer's position clear, and there was one recently I really quite liked....
Ultimately, this will be to the benefit of those who do meet the qualifications asked for.

[Flybabe]

I don't find the "PFO" term offensive, at all. I've gotten several, that's what I call them. Is it meant to be harsh? Nope - it's just what I call them. Then again, I've been in the industry for quite a few years and have developed a sense of humour when job hunting.

I would much rather get the PFO than nothing.

On another note, the last company that hired me had an administrative assistant call me after my interview to inform me that I was NOT successful for the job I had applied for. I thought about it a bit, and called her back. I was emphatic that I was not bitter about being unsuccessful, and was wondering if the interviewers had any suggestions for being more attractive to the next prospective employer.

The CP ended up calling me and offering me a different position.

There *are* some companies out there that are approachable, and that's a GOOD thing.

[flying4dollars]

This is being a little harsh isn't it? What do you expect from young wannabees when they witness a guy who doesn't have the requirements or time in the log book get on with a company because he knows somebody there or has good connections? They fire out resumes left and right.... you should see it as a compliment that they are interested in empoyment at your joint...

You don't believe that do you? Truth is, most newly minted pilots don't apply because they are truly interested in any company. They apply to every company because they feel it increases their chances of a call back. They use generic resumes and copy and paste different company names in the address box. At 3 companies I've worked for, I've viewed countless resumes from pilots who address their resume to the correct company, however, on their closing statement in the cover letter, they state "I hope to start my career with <completely different company> in the near future".

In all fairness, when I was 200 hours old, I did the same. I sent resumes everywhere I could. Now, with experience and several years under my belt, I would only ever apply to a company that I really want to go to, and that I could really see myself at for a comfortable amount of time. Many new pilots just want somewhere to go to at first to pad the book so they can jump to where they REALLY want to go.

[AJV]

I would only ever apply to a company that I really want to go to, and that I could really see myself at for a comfortable amount of time.

I agree 110%!! I am sitting at just under 1000TT and there are just a handfull of companies that I would really want to work for, and not for 6 months but several years before I move on again. Tell how you can make the HR people at the said companies believe that. I have been where I am now for 3.5 years and have included that in my resume cover letter, is that enough proof?

[xsbank]

Thanks to those who quoted me, both complimentary and dissing - what is missing here is that lots of candidates send their resumes to companies without reading the job ads. They are trolling for some sort of work and they are basically just getting their names out there. Period. Not all responses are linked to an ad.

Many jobs I got in my past were offered to me after I applied in person, out of the blue (so to speak), despite not being "qualified." The first and most seminal was a dispatching job with a bare commercial and a float rating. Next was a 180 job flying fish with <50 hours floats, no solo time at all. The third was captain on a Navajo in Vancouver when I had only SE float time and a Class 2 instrument rating (remember those? The license had a longer renewal time, useful for a float pilot) with just enough twin time to get the rating and the next was right seat on a large corporate a/c when all I had was Navajo and Islander time flying largely in the bush. Arguably, the job I have now, much later in my career on jets was in the same category as I had never flown any jet before.

Remember Jazz hiring guys with 200 hours right out of college? Its only in Canada that the requirements are so high for a "light" aircraft job. Times are tough now, getting any work is difficult but it usually turns around and sometimes a warm body is all that is required to do the job (copilot on a PC12 or a Navajo)

I still think that the opportunity to get that "unqualified" job is worth the effort to send out a resume. Remember that old joke: "Please God, I want to win the lottery." "Well my son, meet me halfway and buy a ticket!"