As a new voice on this site, I would like to express my disappointment in a recent event which took place at Perimeter Airlines. As a Captain, I have come to appreciate the fact that I am one of the luckiest people to be employed in this industry.
With the recent downfall of Skyward Aviation, Perimeter has accepted responsibility in giving the unemployed some employment. Our latest groundschool alone had nearly 20 ex Skyward pilots. Perimeter believes that they should receive a second chance. With simply a golden handshake and their word that they would stick around for one year, some of these pilots were given the opportunity to join the line, with one exception.
One successful candidate was given left seat training. One half hour before his ride, he went up to the CP's office and informed him that he had been hired elsewhere (on a metro to boot) and that he would no longer require Perimeter's employment.
This individual, who shall remain nameless (but knows who he is), betrayed the trust and honour of management and of those dedicated Perimeter pilots who went out of their way to give him a solid recomendation.
I am a firm believer of what goes around comes around. You may have ruined the chance of all the other Skyward pilots who are seriously looking for employment at Perimeter.
I don't understand the reason you left, but a bridge has been burned in the eyes of a lot of people at the big P. To all the others from Skyward. I am truly sorry for what happened to your airline. At the same time, if are one of the people who get hired at Perimeter, I hope you appreciate exactly what you got.
Bye for now
Golden Handshake gone bad.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Golden Handshake gone bad.
Stay Loyal. Never underestimate they other guys greed. Don't get high on your own supply.
golden handshake
In this business.....always remeber. Never kick the ass of someone's you might kiss later. And, what comes around will go around. People, especially in flying always make their bed.......but they must live in it too.
Re: Golden Handshake gone bad.
How noble of them to accept responsibilites. Great stuff! Pat on the back.Chi Chi wrote: With the recent downfall of Skyward Aviation, Perimeter has accepted responsibility in giving the unemployed some employment. Our latest groundschool alone had nearly 20 ex Skyward pilots.
Maybe Perimeter should have hired their ramp guys first. Wouldn't have the same problem with those guys. And really, they're the ones that deserve a chance.
But, hey, you gotta go with what the insurance companies say, right? They're the hand that grips the balls of the aviation industry. And boy that grip is toight.
Thanks for the dirty laundry.
Re: Golden Handshake gone bad.
lolUtva wrote: Maybe Perimeter should have hired their ramp guys first. Wouldn't have the same problem with those guys. And really, they're the ones that deserve a chance.
Re: Golden Handshake gone bad.
...
Last edited by JBI on Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chi Chi:
If 1 of the 20 left, then 95% are still there. It is the nature of this business to move on. You can't judge the reputation of Skyward's staff (whether good or bad) because one guy fucked you over.
Also, I seriously doubt Perimeter was giving job opportunities just cause they felt bad for these guys, they needed pilots. Sooner or later these positions would have been filled.
If 1 of the 20 left, then 95% are still there. It is the nature of this business to move on. You can't judge the reputation of Skyward's staff (whether good or bad) because one guy fucked you over.
Also, I seriously doubt Perimeter was giving job opportunities just cause they felt bad for these guys, they needed pilots. Sooner or later these positions would have been filled.
Timing is everything.
It is kind of hard to make a comment like that and not no the back ground story. Was it a better job with better pay and or schedule? Did this person have a chance to return to where they and their family are from and therefore chose to leave rather than live away for longer? Everybody has their reasons and I doubt any pilot would quit a job simply to screw someone over. Interpret his actions with an open mind, you never know why someone has made the decision they have. If it was a better choice for them than good. Who are we to judge someone else?
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Panama Jack
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Unfortunately, nowadays if one wants loyalty they should get a dog. As Tango01 pointed out, I doubt that Perimeter's motive was charity when they hired ex-Skyward pilots. They probably figured they could get people who would work out well for their operations, who knew the environment and who would be grateful for a job (employee loyalty). If 95% work out, that's a pretty good return for risk.
I believe it treating one's employer with honesty and honor, however how many pilots out there wish they had been kissed before they got f$%@ed in the industry? There are countless tales of people who have worked at good companies, then moved on only to have the Chief Pilot walk in on their new-hire class to announce "sorry guys, the recession has hit." That is the way the industry works. Nasty business.
I believe it treating one's employer with honesty and honor, however how many pilots out there wish they had been kissed before they got f$%@ed in the industry? There are countless tales of people who have worked at good companies, then moved on only to have the Chief Pilot walk in on their new-hire class to announce "sorry guys, the recession has hit." That is the way the industry works. Nasty business.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”
-President Ronald Reagan
-President Ronald Reagan
The only instances where a Corporation might engage in...Charity...is when tax season is around or cost cutting measures are required.Panama Jack wrote:As Tango01 pointed out, I doubt that Perimeter's motive was charity when they hired ex-Skyward pilots.
He left before the training didn't he?
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett
'chi chi',
I feel your frustration and sympathise with you, but you have to realise that this happens in our industry every day. Your guy quit before his ride, we had numerous guys quit over a 3 month period after they got their PPC's and were on-line!
Now, thanks to them, our company has Training Bonds! Not Golden Handshakes or Promisary Notes, but Bonds that we have to go to the bank to get in our own names! The company has been really professional about paying-off the bonds, which is great, but the simple fact is that this group of pilots forced Managements hand to instituting Bonds.
A couple posters above made great points about hiring from outside. In my experience you run the greatest risk when you hire high-time pilots from outside the company. This, as opposed to moving lower-time guys up the ladder within your organization. I've always seen hiring from outside as a 'quick-fix', where promoting from inside creates longer-term stability!
G
I feel your frustration and sympathise with you, but you have to realise that this happens in our industry every day. Your guy quit before his ride, we had numerous guys quit over a 3 month period after they got their PPC's and were on-line!
Now, thanks to them, our company has Training Bonds! Not Golden Handshakes or Promisary Notes, but Bonds that we have to go to the bank to get in our own names! The company has been really professional about paying-off the bonds, which is great, but the simple fact is that this group of pilots forced Managements hand to instituting Bonds.
A couple posters above made great points about hiring from outside. In my experience you run the greatest risk when you hire high-time pilots from outside the company. This, as opposed to moving lower-time guys up the ladder within your organization. I've always seen hiring from outside as a 'quick-fix', where promoting from inside creates longer-term stability!
G
Good to see some replies.
What happened left a sour taste in the mouths of upper management. I have never questioned the integrity of the other Skyward guys. For the most part, I agree that the time has come for PAG to hire some high time, experienced guys. And you are right. They are working their asses off to get hired!!
You were right in saying that I don't know the whole story. However, I can tell you that this individual knew of this job opportunity prior to commencing his training at Perimeter. A simple mention of this could have postponed his training to a lter date until he figured things out. In the meantime, Perimeter could have trained another guy.
When I was hired, I know I had to put my signature on a year and half training bond. Those days are now over, but they may be back.
Take care guys
What happened left a sour taste in the mouths of upper management. I have never questioned the integrity of the other Skyward guys. For the most part, I agree that the time has come for PAG to hire some high time, experienced guys. And you are right. They are working their asses off to get hired!!
You were right in saying that I don't know the whole story. However, I can tell you that this individual knew of this job opportunity prior to commencing his training at Perimeter. A simple mention of this could have postponed his training to a lter date until he figured things out. In the meantime, Perimeter could have trained another guy.
When I was hired, I know I had to put my signature on a year and half training bond. Those days are now over, but they may be back.
Take care guys
Stay Loyal. Never underestimate they other guys greed. Don't get high on your own supply.
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Panama Jack
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Chi Chi
You may have heard the expression "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Even a "sure thing" in aviation is not a sure thing anymore these days. Just ask guys who have been in the hiring pool for Air Canada and the recently drained pool for Air Canada Jazz. Sour mouths are not only reserved for management types. Plenty of people out there who have waited a half-year to a year or more from their successful interview to new hire class and others whose "job offers" have simply evaporated. Reflecting on my own career, I've had these type of events happen to me at least 4 times in my 9 year old career, and don't think that this hasn't at least "shaped" the way I approach offers and opportunities. A professional pilot's career progression is a little like a monkey swinging through the trees-- he doesn't like to let go of one rope til he has another firmly in his grips.
You may have heard the expression "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Even a "sure thing" in aviation is not a sure thing anymore these days. Just ask guys who have been in the hiring pool for Air Canada and the recently drained pool for Air Canada Jazz. Sour mouths are not only reserved for management types. Plenty of people out there who have waited a half-year to a year or more from their successful interview to new hire class and others whose "job offers" have simply evaporated. Reflecting on my own career, I've had these type of events happen to me at least 4 times in my 9 year old career, and don't think that this hasn't at least "shaped" the way I approach offers and opportunities. A professional pilot's career progression is a little like a monkey swinging through the trees-- he doesn't like to let go of one rope til he has another firmly in his grips.
“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”
-President Ronald Reagan
-President Ronald Reagan
You have to get the whole story before slamming someone now adays....
Yes, I agree with u that some of these practices are not exactly right, but you do have to get the whole story. I know i don't have the whole story but i do have more then u.
First question i have is how does a company go about making u do the ground school - GPS ground school (getting the training for free) and then say we may hire u when u are done all this..... He did start his flight training and there was no mention of getting paid until he did his first line flight = like what the *%$. Either u are hired or u are not in my books, that is a risk the company has to take........
For starters.
He knew he did have an opportunity somewhere else (and no it is not on a metro - it is on a 1900), but how often do u tell one employeer that u are looking at going somewhere else.... never - don't want to lose both opportunities.
He did try and postpone his training, but (according to him) they made him start at that point.
Ya, he could have gone and done the ride and then quit, but he didn't. As soon as he got the call he went in and told the CP.
He is an east coast boy and has been trying for years to get back there. He now got his opportunity and well who can blame him for going to where he is going to be happy.
Who in there right mind wants to fly to Shamtown etc every day for ever.
Again i don't have all the details but I do have more then you. I could be missing some stuff here and prob am.
But hey he did all there training on his own time and dollar. PAG never put out a dime until he was in there machine, and that was only gas.
To all those still in the ground school pool all the best to ya - hope unemployment isn't asking how you are doing training and still not getting paid......
Yes, I agree with u that some of these practices are not exactly right, but you do have to get the whole story. I know i don't have the whole story but i do have more then u.
First question i have is how does a company go about making u do the ground school - GPS ground school (getting the training for free) and then say we may hire u when u are done all this..... He did start his flight training and there was no mention of getting paid until he did his first line flight = like what the *%$. Either u are hired or u are not in my books, that is a risk the company has to take........
For starters.
He knew he did have an opportunity somewhere else (and no it is not on a metro - it is on a 1900), but how often do u tell one employeer that u are looking at going somewhere else.... never - don't want to lose both opportunities.
He did try and postpone his training, but (according to him) they made him start at that point.
Ya, he could have gone and done the ride and then quit, but he didn't. As soon as he got the call he went in and told the CP.
He is an east coast boy and has been trying for years to get back there. He now got his opportunity and well who can blame him for going to where he is going to be happy.
Who in there right mind wants to fly to Shamtown etc every day for ever.
Again i don't have all the details but I do have more then you. I could be missing some stuff here and prob am.
But hey he did all there training on his own time and dollar. PAG never put out a dime until he was in there machine, and that was only gas.
To all those still in the ground school pool all the best to ya - hope unemployment isn't asking how you are doing training and still not getting paid......
Last edited by Busted on Sun May 08, 2005 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Axial Flow
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Busted wrote:
Also, just wondering why you make it sound like PAG is doing them a favour...why would you want to take guys with experience in the area that have time and are available ? Accepting "responsibility" on employing some of the unemployed ? Can't wait for CS&J to give his opinion on the subject.
Just a little tired of hearing SOME people preaching about Perimeter and all the charity work they are doing for some Skyward guys. Give me a break.
That would not go with the story line so well if you put too much truth to it...You have to get the whole story before slamming someone now adays....
Also, just wondering why you make it sound like PAG is doing them a favour...why would you want to take guys with experience in the area that have time and are available ? Accepting "responsibility" on employing some of the unemployed ? Can't wait for CS&J to give his opinion on the subject.
Just a little tired of hearing SOME people preaching about Perimeter and all the charity work they are doing for some Skyward guys. Give me a break.
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centerstored
- Rank 4
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- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:16 pm
This thread has taken the wrong direction! But I'm glad that somebody had the balls to start it! First of all, lets talk about PAG and all the BS people are talking about. PAG needed experienced pilots. They considerered any Skyward pilot with experience and a recommend. Not because of any other BS reason you retards have posted...because they needed experience, and chose to find it from a pool of Skyward guys first. See, PAG realizes that eventhough skyward was a poorly run operation, it did have some excellent people doing the everyday work. PAG was compassionate when they hired these guys whether you hate to believe it or not! They have plenty of high time resumes on the CP's desk with thousands of hours on type. They even have a handful of guys and gals who've worked at PAG for several years and would love to come back! (after thinking the grass was greener) The point of this rant is that "we do it to ourselves"! PAG trusted these guys with a golden handshake...and probably shouldn't have. There were several guys lined up for training, this guy could have easily asked to be trained last. 
And all you who complain about the way PAG hires...you must work at quite the company if they pay you from the day you are hired, and during all of your training. Obviously you haven't worked in this industry too long. OH, to the guy who posted about PAG's cargo guys deserving a shot...that is true, but explain how YOU are going to solve PAG's experience requirements? Although very deserving, you are part of the cause.
And all you who complain about the way PAG hires...you must work at quite the company if they pay you from the day you are hired, and during all of your training. Obviously you haven't worked in this industry too long. OH, to the guy who posted about PAG's cargo guys deserving a shot...that is true, but explain how YOU are going to solve PAG's experience requirements? Although very deserving, you are part of the cause.
I guess I do work at quite the company. Two and a half months between the last day of groundschool and first day of sim, and I got paid right from day one. Every other job I've had I was getting paid from dia uno, too. Eight years in this biz.centerstored wrote:...you must work at quite the company if they pay you from the day you are hired, and during all of your training. Obviously you haven't worked in this industry too long.
Not every outfit is running a scam, I guess.
Oh for shame. Someone left Perimeter before retirement!!! And now it seems like the Upper Management's all crying about one guy in twenty that left. I love the fact that the Green Machine's built itself up lately as this great enterprise but it'll still go back to it's grass roots bush operation and hire whoever and put them wherever is best. How many rampies are working at P? How many not from Skyward?
Shit, I can't wait to hear what happens when a line pilot quits after getting some time in a plane. How high's the tallest building near the hangar?
Shit, I can't wait to hear what happens when a line pilot quits after getting some time in a plane. How high's the tallest building near the hangar?
Everything comes in threes....
I've been in Aviation for 26 years and have worked for numerous companies. Can honestly say I have always been paid from the day I showed up regardless of how long the training took.
I have a hard time believing that there are companies who don't put you on the payroll until after your training is done. I don't blame the guy for baling.
I have a hard time believing that there are companies who don't put you on the payroll until after your training is done. I don't blame the guy for baling.
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
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Cat Driver
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I also never ever heard of being employed by a company and not on the payroll.
Anyone that has loyalty without reward has some brain cells missing.
Cat
Anyone that has loyalty without reward has some brain cells missing.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Navajo-dude
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- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:55 pm
Chi Chi, your a spaz!
You should not start a post till you have the facts (or even close) and honestly you are way off the mark!
Yup a skyward guy bailed, and perimeter did pick up a few guys which is awfully nice of them. But its a business decision to take them.
There wasn't "20" skyward guys on the groundschool, lucky if there was 10, they only picked up 4 to start and guess what.....the first two guys have been doing ground school, GPS training, flight training and all the other crap for some 3 weeks, everyday, on there own time. Not to pay a guy during training is hardly charity!
So lets see now, the caring sharing perimeter strings out these guys for 3 weeks, with still no promise of a job. I know for a fact the guy did not have "the other job" until the day he told them, which is actually awful nice of him as yes his ride was the next day (not the next hour like you seem to believe!). He could have taken them for all they were worth and done the ride then bailed! other guys are right also in saying the other job is not in a metro, its a 1900....
So what would you do? no pay, no money, on your own time, no actual job offer, and even if it comes your an FO, flying to Island lack a bigillion times a week.......then you get an actual job as a B1900 Capt.....
give me break!
Perimeter guys that think they are so perfect don't even know what engine is no 1 and no 2. They have to use there hands and call it left and right! That makes me laugh! ha ha!
You should not start a post till you have the facts (or even close) and honestly you are way off the mark!
Yup a skyward guy bailed, and perimeter did pick up a few guys which is awfully nice of them. But its a business decision to take them.
There wasn't "20" skyward guys on the groundschool, lucky if there was 10, they only picked up 4 to start and guess what.....the first two guys have been doing ground school, GPS training, flight training and all the other crap for some 3 weeks, everyday, on there own time. Not to pay a guy during training is hardly charity!
So lets see now, the caring sharing perimeter strings out these guys for 3 weeks, with still no promise of a job. I know for a fact the guy did not have "the other job" until the day he told them, which is actually awful nice of him as yes his ride was the next day (not the next hour like you seem to believe!). He could have taken them for all they were worth and done the ride then bailed! other guys are right also in saying the other job is not in a metro, its a 1900....
So what would you do? no pay, no money, on your own time, no actual job offer, and even if it comes your an FO, flying to Island lack a bigillion times a week.......then you get an actual job as a B1900 Capt.....
give me break!
Perimeter guys that think they are so perfect don't even know what engine is no 1 and no 2. They have to use there hands and call it left and right! That makes me laugh! ha ha!
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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Mooseport :
Before you insulting others maybe you should consider your own attitude...
Quote:
" Perimeter guys that think they are so perfect don't even know what engine is no 1 and no 2. They have to use there hands and call it left and right! That makes me laugh! ha ha! "
When training pilots on twin engine airplanes I always refeer to the engine as Right and Left, for the simple reason it is easier for the student to quickly identify in their own minds which engine I am refeering to.
So maybe you should reconsider laughing at how other pilots identify which engine they are refeering to.
Cat
Before you insulting others maybe you should consider your own attitude...
Quote:
" Perimeter guys that think they are so perfect don't even know what engine is no 1 and no 2. They have to use there hands and call it left and right! That makes me laugh! ha ha! "
When training pilots on twin engine airplanes I always refeer to the engine as Right and Left, for the simple reason it is easier for the student to quickly identify in their own minds which engine I am refeering to.
So maybe you should reconsider laughing at how other pilots identify which engine they are refeering to.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Someone said..."we do it to ourselves"...the bottom line is that you should be on payroll from day 1. (I don't want to get in to a paY-for-your-own-training debate!!)CLguy wrote:I've been in Aviation for 26 years and have worked for numerous companies. Can honestly say I have always been paid from the day I showed up regardless of how long the training took.
g
"Slow and steady wins the race"
