How safe is Air Travel in Yellowknife?

[CAN_Yeager]

How safe is air travel in Yellowknife?

Now with three accidents in two months, It starts people thinking are these events just a matter of coincidence or is their an underlining factor involved here. If you have spent any time in Aviation in Yellowknife, it's is not hard to realize that a lot of people are getting there start in Aviation up there. I would hazard to guess that the ratio of inexperienced verses experienced personal is higher their then anywhere in Canada (with pilots and AME's).

Now before someone bites off my head, there has been no evidence that the pilots or AME's have been the root cause of any of these accidents. However even if procedures were followed by the book by the pilots and everything was maintained “In accordance with applicable maintenance standards” there are many things that are not published in any manual to do (pilots) or to look for (AME's) that could only done by experienced personal.

Also Yellowknife is in the most inhospitable part of Canada extreme temperature variations causing mechanical break downs more frequently and the vast majority of aircraft being operated in Yellowknife are older than in most other cities.

Another factor my be lead times for parts are very long due to delays in shipping and high demand to keep aircraft operating. There maybe a tendency to MEL equipment or remove parts from another aircraft more often then in other locations.

I would like to open a discussion on these topic's

[Meatservo]

EDITED - She was right. Warned

[Mad Flying Ace]

EDITED

[Clodhopper]

Wow. Take it easy guys. The OP is asking a very valid question that I am sure has crossed the minds of many Canadians over the past few weeks. We have 3 accidents in the same geographic region of Canada, one which is known to be more challenging than most others.

Those from the area, or those "in the know" might be quick to bite the OP's head off for asking, but the general public and others who haven't flown "North of 60" might be starting to wonder.

We have no firm causes for any of the three crashes so far, so everything up until now is speculative or based on witness testimonies. Until we do, what is wrong with a discussion about what really is going on up there?

I'll play devil's advocate for a second (not my opinion, but lets assume many people may start putting 2 and 2 together and draw this conclusion): 3 crashes within a month, also timed with a rapid up-tick in hiring at all the southern operators/airlines, potentially pulling many experienced aviators from their long-held positions up north. Co-incidence? Non-event? Perhaps, perhaps not. There are going to be lots of questions asked in the coming days and weeks, some stupid, others not-so.

[Changes in Latitudes]

So you didn't know any of the pilots in the accidents clod? I can tell you that 3 of which I did know, I wouldn't call their experience, and dedication to professionalism into judgement. Not everyone is in a race to rolley bags and salary cuts up there. If you want to play devil's advocate, do your homework because you got personal in a hurry by making such a wild speculation.

Respectfully,

CiL.

[grimey]

3 accidents, in 3 different places, in 3 different aircraft types, in different circumstances, by different operators.

It's completely random. Tragic, but random. There is no problem with northern aviation.

[KK7]

There's probably no problem at all given the different types of aircraft, operations and locations and so on. However, a very real problem is that the public doesn't understand the situation the same way we do. When I saw this accident this morning, one of the thoughts that passed through my mind was exactly that - how is the public going to react to this now?

Our job as members of the aviation community will be to convince the general public that there is no link here. Mouthing off about it right off the bat will not instill any confidence in the flying public. I had the same initial reaction to tell this fellow to F Off, but it's not going to help. It's too soon after the crash, unfortunately the media won't care and I am certain by tomorrow this idea will start rearing its ugly head in the news stories.

We don't want this discussion, we shouldn't need this discussion, but it will need to happen.

[buck82]

And another reminder. The Aircraft involved are not any different than what you see flying all over the rest of Canada; 737, twin otter, caravan. Educate yourself. Sincere condolences to the families involved.

[SAR_YQQ]

Comparing Yellowknife geographically with Resolute is a bit of a stretch. Just because they are north doesn't associate them all in one place. Yellowknife isn't the Arctic.

[godsrcrazy]

I doubt things have changed in the past year's in Yzf. When i was in YZF it use to be rated like the 5th or 6th busiest aerodrome in Canada. Considering the type of flying that happens out of YZF i think the companies there are still the best there is. Just look around Canada and see how many Bush/ commuter operators have had fatal accidents.

[Brewguy]

How safe is air travel in Yellowknife?

Extremely safe! Just like it is everywhere else in the country... Thanks for asking.

[Adiabatic]

3 accidents, in 3 different places, in 3 different aircraft types, in different circumstances, by different operators.

It's completely random. Tragic, but random. There is no problem with northern aviation.

+1

Very tragic for all involved and there is no doubt that the public is scratching their heads.
Condolences to all, fly safe...please.

AB

[sky's the limit]

I find this extremely interesting, the responses I mean.

To paraphrase everyone here so far, "Nothing to look here, move along. Everything's fine." Really?

Not looking at these three accidents specifically - as we know very little about each at this time - but looking at VFR operations across the country, and some of the IFR situations, I would argue quite strongly that not only is aviation safety in Canada wanting, it is getting worse in some respects.

We have crash after crash, year after year in the 703 world, helicopters, tankers, AG, West Coast floats, etc, etc, but you all seem to feel there is nothing amiss, just coincidence? Again, I find that perspective particularly interesting given the facts surrounding most operations in our industry, and particularly in certain parts of the country.

Question: Does anyone feel current flight and duty limits are actually contributing to safety? Does anyone think Transport Canada is actively contributing to safety? Does anyone think that SMS systems are actually contributing to safety? Does anyone think that the level of proficiency we train to in either initial flight training, or the PPC is anywhere near high enough? I don't, not at all. All the signs are there, the question is: who's paying attention to them, and why is it that money seems to get in the way, always?

Most of us have lost friends in this industry, either fellow pilots or customers, some of us more than others, so let's leave that out of it for a moment and actually address the OP's intended question (no matter how clumsy) because I for one see a major issue in Canadian aviation and I know others do as well.

stl

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Question: Does anyone feel current flight and duty limits are actually contributing to safety?

No.

Does anyone think Transport Canada is actively contributing to safety?

No, in fact they are degrading safety by focusing on paperwork to avoid having to actually do their duty.

Does anyone think that SMS systems are actually contributing to safety?

No, the time wasted on the paper work should be used in actually doing something tangible for safety.

Does anyone think that the level of proficiency we train to in either initial flight training, or the PPC is anywhere near high enough? I don't, not at all. All the signs are there, the question is: who's paying attention to them, and why is it that money seems to get in the way, always?

Because the industry and the regulator are satisfied with the present system.

[Clodhopper]

+1 . and STL, well said.

As for Latitudes?

So you didn't know any of the pilots in the accidents clod? I can tell you that 3 of which I did know, I wouldn't call their experience, and dedication to professionalism into judgement. Not everyone is in a race to rolley bags and salary cuts up there. If you want to play devil's advocate, do your homework because you got personal in a hurry by making such a wild speculation.

I was not making speculation. I also was not calling their specific experience, dedication, or professionalism into question myself. As I said, I was merely tossing something out there that may be going through the general public's head. It was in response to the question posed by the OP.

Aviation is small, and I know that there are many people (both in aviation and out) affected by the recent spate of tragedies in Canada. My condolences go out to all of them.

[straightpilot]

I have some family members that wanted to fly up north. I had misgivings before all the recent crashes about what goes on up north, but now, no way.

The crews might be the best in the world, and so is the maintenance, but it's pretty obvious that it's just not working. It's just not worth the risk.

[grimey]

STL,

I think a lot of the responses have to do with whether there's a problem in Yellowknife specifically, and I think it's reasonable to say that there isn't. If you ask if there's a problem with aviation in all of Canada which has led to the incidents due to fatigue, inexperience, training, or maintenance, I think that's a different question entirely, and you'd get completely different responses. I don't think that flying on a major airline out of Yellowknife is any more or less dangerous than doing the same out of any other airport in Canada. I don't think that the air taxi operators are any less safe than those in Manitoba or BC, say. Are there problems? Sure, but we shouldn't focus on Yellowknife or the north.

[Brewguy]

Listen to the radio for a couple of hours each day for a month, during the morning and evening commuting hours. You will hear of countless serious and fatal accidents - stretches of our highway system are shut down each and every day for accidents. Does that make road transportation in Canada overall, or in a particular geographic region of Canada, is "unsafe"?

Stuff happens. People get hurt. It sucks.
And for some strange reason, these things tend to come in series, a few accidents close together.

The original question, was how safe is it. And in general, when you step back and see the big picture, its very safe.

Can safety be improved? Of course. Always. But to what degree do you go, and how much additional safety will you gain? People get hurt every day, in all walks of life.

There aren't roads in many parts of the north. Build a few roads up there, throw some cars & heavy trucks on those roads, and you'll see far more people getting hurt, and more often, than you do with flying.

[Beefitarian]

I think this could be a really good question posed at a really bad time.

[sky's the limit]

STL,

I don't think that flying on a major airline out of Yellowknife is any more or less dangerous than doing the same out of any other airport in Canada. I don't think that the air taxi operators are any less safe than those in Manitoba or BC, say. Are there problems? Sure, but we shouldn't focus on Yellowknife or the north.

With all due respect Grimes, I couldn't disagree more. There are a number of factors which make the north and the arctic more dangerous, just like Coastal BC - they are unique operational environments. I don't have the time at the moment to go into detail, but suffice it to say northern operations in the mountains or the arctic present a whole slew of difficulties and exposure that do not exist in southern Canada. This is exactly where we should be focusing. From 185's to Jet Ranger's, to 737's, it is different and challenging. That's what brings most of us to these places.

Anyway, I have to run, my Father is visiting and it's time to put him to work....

stl

[Bobby868]

It’s tasteless, odorless, there is no blood test or breathalyzer for it and it’s impairing pilots as much as alcohol or drugs it’s called fatigue and it’s our dirty little secret.

Or duty day system is barbaric and asinine. TC and the general public think a 14 hour duty day happens maybe 10 days out of a month where the pilot spends 3 hours of flying and 11 hours sleeping on a couch in the pilots lounge while dispatch takes care of flight planning, the copilot checks the weather and the ground crews load and unload the planes.

The reality is many (not all) but many operators in the 703 world are totally abusing 14hr duty days and they are doing it with the least experienced pilots. They are running mind boggling back to back flights with 5-10 minute turn arounds, non-stop for 14hrs straight, for 14, 21 or whatever number of days straight they can get away with. These entry level positions require pilots to also load and unload thousands of pounds of freight in those short turnaround times. There’s no time for coffee or lunch breaks you eat in the plane, you squeeze in a piss break when you go to the fuel tank farm to turn on the pumps.

Pilots are coming in well before their 14 hr duty day starts because there’s more to do than can be done in the 45 minutes allotted and are staying later than the 14hr duty day to clean up paper work, brief maintenance on issues, talk with ops about the next day etc. And this is not just one busy day out of a normally quiet work week. This pace is a business model for many 703 operators and they require it 7 days a week in order to survive.

Pilots eager to please their employer, happy to have their first gig and wanting to log as many hours as they can are reluctant to say anything. In fact as with most other impairments once under its influence it’s hard to even know it’s effecting you.

If an accident does occur fatigue leaves no trace on the corpse. Two questions are asked, did the pilot get their 8 hrs sleep, did they work less than 14 hrs? If the answer is yes then immediate conclusion was that the pilot was well rested.

Yet ask anyone outside of aviation what they consider overtime and it’s a resounding anything over 8hrs. Ask them again how they would feel if they had to work an hour or two of over-time every day for the whole week / 5 days and they would say exhausted. So how can TC in any shape, way or form expect a pilot to wear so many hats; to have the mental fatigue of pilot decision making plus the physical fatigue of loading and unloading thousands of pounds every hour and to do this day after day for weeks on end?

TC gave operators an extreme amount of leeway with duty times and duty days and expected operators to be responsible. Instead employers have pushed the work day rules to the absolute limit with the least experienced pilots. As more operators do this others have to follow to stay competitive. It’s a crazy spiral.

What does this have to do with any of the FOUR crashes in the NWT this season? Nothing! You’ve forgotten already, it’s tasteless, order less and untraceable. Fatigue by TC standards cannot be proven so it will never be found as a fault. Whether it was a factor or not will never be known and that’s a real shame.

[System Message]

That question can not be answered without defining what safe means. In any event past performance is not indicative of future results. Is this safe? is a loaded question with no right answer and only a fool would try to answer.

[straightpilot]

past performance is not indicative of future results

Insurance companies don't agree.

[System Message]

Insurance companies write policies based on the odds of winning being greater than the odds of losing. They do not declare something safe.

[KK7]

Insurance companies write policies based on the odds of winning being greater than the odds of losing. They do not declare something safe.

Generally people are more comfortable with winning odds too...