PA-34 known icing requirements in Canada

[DanWEC]

Hello, quick question (TC doesn't open till tuesday).
Anyone familiar with FIKI cert in Canada for the Seneca III? Does the equipment required listed in the AFM apply to Canadian regs? Is factory installation an absolute requirement?
Looking at importing one that's cert FIKI FAA, but would be pointless if it doesn't/can't meet the requirements here. I'd appreciate any input on finding out before importing, or suggestions for checking.
I know the hot windshield plate can be an issue, but I have seen senecas here with them, that are certified FIKI.
Thanks, and a happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hello, quick question (TC doesn't open till tuesday).
Anyone familiar with FIKI cert in Canada for the Seneca III? Does the equipment required listed in the AFM apply to Canadian regs? Is factory installation an absolute requirement?
Looking at importing one that's cert FIKI FAA, but would be pointless if it doesn't/can't meet the requirements here. I'd appreciate any input on finding out before importing, or suggestions for checking.
I know the hot windshield plate can be an issue, but I have seen senecas here with them, that are certified FIKI.
Thanks, and a happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

All Seneca's except the first model year (1972) which are fitted with the full factory deice kit are FIKI because the limitations section of the POH specifically list approval for flight into know icing.

[oldtimer]

I know didly squat about the Seneca series of airplanes but I did some research on the Navajo. It was years ago and things change but this is what I remember and some of it may apply to the Seneca.
The original Navajo, as with most small airplanes, had de-iceing equipment installed as a precaution so that if icing conditions were encountered, the boots and prop de-ice would allow the pilot time to exit the icing conditions. All that was required during certification was to prove that the installation of the de-ice equipment did not have a negative effect on the handling or performance of the airplane. Nothing was said about if the equipment worked as intended. Then, the US FAA adopted the FAR 25 definition of icing conditions and this allowed the small aircraft manufacturers to design and test the airplanes and be certified for flight into known icing. Now, if one goes along with the idea that what the manufacturer did for one airplane, maybe he did the same for another types, such as the Seneca. In the case of the Navajo, customers could buy the original airplanes with or without any de-ice equipment and none were certified FIKI. Once later models were certified, older models could be refitted, but some operators simply went to the parts bin and added pieces, many outside of what was installed on certified airplanes. Some early model Navajos could not be certified because the vacuum / air pump system would not support both the gyros and the de-ice boots. What happened is basically that the newer model Navajos came from the factory with fully equipped and certified with de-ice equipment and that was that. For those who operated only VFR or in warm climates could remove the de-ice equipment via an STC. All older model Navajos could be retrofitted with factory approved equipment and be certified. This prevented the el cheapos from cobbling together something that sort of looked like it might work.
I hope this drivvel will give you some insight in what to look for in the Seneca. As I said, this is old material and I could stand corrected but this was the the procedures Piper adopted around the same time frame that Piper introduced the Seneca 111.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I know didly squat about the Seneca series of airplanes but I did some research on the Navajo. It was years ago and things change but this is what I remember and some of it may apply to the Seneca.
The original Navajo, as with most small airplanes, had de-iceing equipment installed as a precaution so that if icing conditions were encountered, the boots and prop de-ice would allow the pilot time to exit the icing conditions. All that was required during certification was to prove that the installation of the de-ice equipment did not have a negative effect on the handling or performance of the airplane. Nothing was said about if the equipment worked as intended. Then, the US FAA adopted the FAR 25 definition of icing conditions and this allowed the small aircraft manufacturers to design and test the airplanes and be certified for flight into known icing. Now, if one goes along with the idea that what the manufacturer did for one airplane, maybe he did the same for another types, such as the Seneca. In the case of the Navajo, customers could buy the original airplanes with or without any de-ice equipment and none were certified FIKI. Once later models were certified, older models could be refitted, but some operators simply went to the parts bin and added pieces, many outside of what was installed on certified airplanes. Some early model Navajos could not be certified because the vacuum / air pump system would not support both the gyros and the de-ice boots. What happened is basically that the newer model Navajos came from the factory with fully equipped and certified with de-ice equipment and that was that. For those who operated only VFR or in warm climates could remove the de-ice equipment via an STC. All older model Navajos could be retrofitted with factory approved equipment and be certified. This prevented the el cheapos from cobbling together something that sort of looked like it might work.
I hope this drivvel will give you some insight in what to look for in the Seneca. As I said, this is old material and I could stand corrected but this was the the procedures Piper adopted around the same time frame that Piper introduced the Seneca 111.

The Navajo was certified in the mid 1960's while the Seneca was certified in the 1970's and the rules changed significantly over this time period. AFAIK there was no provision for partial or non FIKI de -ice systems with the Seneca (except for 1972, the first year of production for the Seneca 1). It either came from the factory with a full FIKI system or nothing at all. The POH for the specific serial number of the aircraft in question will tell you if the airplane is FIKI or not.

[bigsky]

I have lots of time in the Seneca II with the ASI acting like an altimeter. The pitot static heat on the II was a POS. The heating elements couldn't keep up with even a trace of ice. The III was better.

Actually when I think about it - other than being cheap to run the II was a POS in general.
Very unstable in turbulence due to the stabulator.

[oldtimer]

BPF, you are absolutly correct. 1978 comes to mind because that is about when airplanes such as the Cessna 210 and Cessna twins were getting the certification and like you said, they either came from the factory fully equipped or not at all so that is why the certification is serial number specific. The problem faced by some was where owners thought they could just go to the parts bin and buy the pieces. I remember a Navajo that had a plastic windshield so rather than go the extra mile, they put a heated plate in front of the pilot. The STA for the plate definately said it was not certified for flight in know icing. The STA just had to prove that the plate would not munch the electrical system when it was turned on. But the Cessna 208 came with a certified heated plate so maybe the plate can be used in lieu of a heated windshield.
as an aside, has anyone had anything to do with TKS?

[co-joe]

I was told with Cessna 310's that if they didn't come from the factory certified for known ice, no amount of modifications can get you KI certification. I've seen lots of planes for sale that were either plumbed for de ice but no boots installed or had them removed. Hot props are an easy mod, so are stall horn, pitot, and static, but like you said the windshield is a biggie.

In the end I think it would really depend what you want to do with said seneca. If you wanted to fly it 703 you might have a hard time with insurance if it didn't come factory KI. If you want to fly the family into the clouds with a few more options you're probably not going to have a problem...unless you auger in, and your life insurance provider wants out of your policy post mortem...

[who me ?]

Back in 1982 to 1987 I operated 2 Senaca II's both were certified know icing conditons.
Yes the pitot tube had 2 elements , and if one element burnt out, you did not know,
until you lost indicated airspeed. But we learnt to have it checked regularly. I have approx. 2200 hrs on Pa-34-200T. We had good success with them.

[DanWEC]

who me- would like to pick your brain if your brain is willing. Check your PM's.
Thank you in advance, and thanks to everyone else who contributed. The factory installed condition has turned out to be a very easy black and white condition for import.

Dan