CUPE serves strike notice for Oct 13, 2011

[Topspin]

I wish I knew what they were actually offered, but say you are correct on the wage increase and other 'perks'.

Not an FA or working anywhere near this segment of the industry, so not 100% certain, but what appears to be the TA;
http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=6c7 ... 6df66b202f

[DrBoeing]

Every country does that suit, none more effectively than your heroes in Dubai. But what does that have to do with worker's rights in Canada?

It has to do with Air Canada employees working for an essential service disguised as a business. Cheap transportation and logistics systems (and now information systems) are what drive societies and economies, trade and all that. Governments like to control those types of things and generally like them to be cheap and accessible. That's why AC is hamstrung with useless backwater routes and the OLA noose. Uppity pilots and flight attendants pushing ticket prices up is a no-no.

If Ac is as what you perceive to be in the eyes of the government, an essential service, then the government should best be making every effort to re-acquire the airline.
to add further fodder to the argument, if again viewed as an essential service, why then during CCAA did the then government make it clear that AC 's survival is to be based on the open market deciding if that was to happen as the government was not going to throw it a life line.
As to your comments of tickets price increases, one has to look no further than the Government itself, with taxes as well as the corporation filling the pockets of grossly over paid and over staffed executives and upper management. While we are at it, lets look at a very prohibitive law called the ACPPA which costs the corporation millions every year but does not apply to other airlines in this country.
Also take into account the hiving off of heavy maintenance, a tactic that has been calculated to save the company aprox 400 million per year,every year, just this alone is more than enough to cover any pension repayment portions due in the near future. it is time to take care of the people who took care of you when the chips were down.
@ the original Tony, lets see if you have the stones to print off your rant and hand it directly to the FA's and say this is your opinion!I bet you are too much of a candy a$$ to do it. the FA's are no different than the rest of us, they made their sacrifices and now it is time for a bit of redemption for their efforts just like the rest of us. What an ignorant thing to say about the FA's. They could say you are nothing but a glorified cabby and you should be paid as such!

[TheSuit]

I suspect that AC would itself oppose being declared an essential service, in part because every community with an airport would soon be demanding service because such service would be deemed by them to be “essential” to the well-being of their community; not to mention the disadvantage (real or perceived) for AC at the negotiating table in negotiating with employees who are providing an essential service.

Yep. That's why disguised as a business. Controlled at arms length by the government for political gains, but private investors have to eat all the losses and deal with the labor headaches. A rare, brilliant move for taxpayers and the government; airline employees didn't fare as well. Still, $100K+ salaries and 15 working days per month ain't bad .

repeating such inaccuracies only reveals your ignorance, in this case, of the true costs of an airline ticket

I'm going to assume this venomous comments implies you have a strong background in airline finance and your understanding isn't simply based around some oversimplified ALPA arithmetic you saw in a slideshow. I'll go out on a limb and assume you have a deep knowledge of controllable and non-controllable costs and that you understand airline margins industry wide track around 1-2%. But I'm losing the plot on your argument. You're saying that every airline manager, banker, economist, bay street analyst etc. doesn't actually understand business accounting? Maybe you think they don't really care about saving money easily, they would rather have huge public pissing matches and work slowdowns to fight over an issue that doesn't really matter at all. Little far fetched, no?

It always amazes me that the traveling public thinks nothing of spending $50 to take a cab to the airport (or $90 to park their car at the airport for a week), and then thinks that they are getting ripped off if they can’t fly YYZ-YOW for $99

People don't value travel, it's that simple. A small demographic does, generally the ones who can afford to pay the true cost. Most people want to get from point A-B as cheap and fast as possible, and the air fair is generally the cost barrier. If you can dream up a solution to this, please start an airline. Plenty of morons will be ready to lose money on it.

it is time to take care of the people who took care of you when the chips were down

The chips are about to be down again; Air Canada has no credible plan to make money. That's why I can buy what was once a $20 share for less than my morning coffee (and why I STILL wouldn't buy a single one).

then the government should best be making every effort to re-acquire the airline.

Why? Tax payers hate the company and it's losing tons of money. The government will let you struggle until breaking point and then just subsidize any new entrants to serve thin routes if it has to. Air Canada is broke and has nothing to lose at this point, so I wouldn't expect to win many concessions in bargaining.

[DrBoeing]

I suspect that AC would itself oppose being declared an essential service, in part because every community with an airport would soon be demanding service because such service would be deemed by them to be “essential” to the well-being of their community; not to mention the disadvantage (real or perceived) for AC at the negotiating table in negotiating with employees who are providing an essential service.

Yep. That's why disguised as a business. Controlled at arms length by the government for political gains, but private investors have to eat all the losses and deal with the labor headaches. A rare, brilliant move for taxpayers and the government; airline employees didn't fare as well. Still, $100K+ salaries and 15 working days per month ain't bad .

repeating such inaccuracies only reveals your ignorance, in this case, of the true costs of an airline ticket

I'm going to assume this venomous comments implies you have a strong background in airline finance and your understanding isn't simply based around some oversimplified ALPA arithmetic you saw in a slideshow. I'll go out on a limb and assume you have a deep knowledge of controllable and non-controllable costs and that you understand airline margins industry wide track around 1-2%. But I'm losing the plot on your argument. You're saying that every airline manager, banker, economist, bay street analyst etc. doesn't actually understand business accounting? Maybe you think they don't really care about saving money easily, they would rather have huge public pissing matches and work slowdowns to fight over an issue that doesn't really matter at all. Little far fetched, no?

It always amazes me that the traveling public thinks nothing of spending $50 to take a cab to the airport (or $90 to park their car at the airport for a week), and then thinks that they are getting ripped off if they can’t fly YYZ-YOW for $99

People don't value travel, it's that simple. A small demographic does, generally the ones who can afford to pay the true cost. Most people want to get from point A-B as cheap and fast as possible, and the air fair is generally the cost barrier. If you can dream up a solution to this, please start an airline. Plenty of morons will be ready to lose money on it.

it is time to take care of the people who took care of you when the chips were down

The chips are about to be down again; Air Canada has no credible plan to make money. That's why I can buy what was once a $20 share for less than my morning coffee (and why I STILL wouldn't buy a single one).

then the government should best be making every effort to re-acquire the airline.

Why? Tax payers hate the company and it's losing tons of money. The government will let you struggle until breaking point and then just subsidize any new entrants to serve thin routes if it has to. Air Canada is broke and has nothing to lose at this point, so I wouldn't expect to win many concessions in bargaining.

Suite, you suite your name, a management stooge who only picks certain words instead of the whole sentence, my sentence was in reference to IF Ac is an essential service, the government should be making its best effort to re-acquire the airline "If Ac is as what you perceive to be in the eyes of the government, an essential service, then the government should best be making every effort to re-acquire the airline."
If you are going to quote some one, use the entire structure of the sentence not pick and choose certain words, you should be writing for the National inquirer!

[TheSuit]

management stooge who only picks certain words instead of the whole sentence

The entire dialogue is posted in plain view. It's a forum.

I'm saying they don't want to pay for AC when they don't need to; they are able to control the airline without owning it. They also get to fill the public coffers with juicy landing fees and other nonsense. There's no way they're going to give up that sweet peach.

[Doug Moore]

I suspect that AC would itself oppose being declared an essential service, in part because every community with an airport would soon be demanding service because such service would be deemed by them to be “essential” to the well-being of their community; not to mention the disadvantage (real or perceived) for AC at the negotiating table in negotiating with employees who are providing an essential service.

Yep. That's why disguised as a business. Controlled at arms length by the government for political gains, but private investors have to eat all the losses and deal with the labor headaches. A rare, brilliant move for taxpayers and the government; airline employees didn't fare as well. Still, $100K+ salaries and 15 working days per month ain't bad .

repeating such inaccuracies only reveals your ignorance, in this case, of the true costs of an airline ticket

I'm going to assume this venomous comments implies you have a strong background in airline finance and your understanding isn't simply based around some oversimplified ALPA arithmetic you saw in a slideshow. I'll go out on a limb and assume you have a deep knowledge of controllable and non-controllable costs and that you understand airline margins industry wide track around 1-2%. But I'm losing the plot on your argument. You're saying that every airline manager, banker, economist, bay street analyst etc. doesn't actually understand business accounting? Maybe you think they don't really care about saving money easily, they would rather have huge public pissing matches and work slowdowns to fight over an issue that doesn't really matter at all. Little far fetched, no?

It always amazes me that the traveling public thinks nothing of spending $50 to take a cab to the airport (or $90 to park their car at the airport for a week), and then thinks that they are getting ripped off if they can’t fly YYZ-YOW for $99

People don't value travel, it's that simple. A small demographic does, generally the ones who can afford to pay the true cost. Most people want to get from point A-B as cheap and fast as possible, and the air fair is generally the cost barrier. If you can dream up a solution to this, please start an airline. Plenty of morons will be ready to lose money on it.

Good Evening Suit,

I agree with you that “$100K+ salaries and 15 working days a month ain’t bad” but you should have acknowledged, for the overwhelming majority of AC employees, that such is not the case. I suspect that you were taking aim at the pilots, but once again, you failed to acknowledge that not every pilot enjoys those wages and number of working days per month. In fact, most AC pilots put in 10-11-12+ years before their salary goes into the 6-figure range – despite their providing a highly specialized skill-set that is integral to the success and profitability of the airline each and every day they show up for work.

You made reference to “a rare, brilliant move for taxpayers and the government” (akin to the current tactics being employed today by Minister Raitt, I suppose) but that “airline employees didn’t fare as well.” Still (to use your qualifier) the current Suits hauling in high six figure and even 7 figure salaries, the occasional $5M “retention” bonus plus stock options, not to mention the 6 figure pensions going into the 500K range (should I mention that those pensions are also non-contributory and often comprised of credited service on top of their earned service?) … where was I … oh yeah, “ain’t bad.”

Back in the late Spring, I think that we discussed these Suits flying their Mahogany Bombers, their numbers at AC and the contribution they make to the safety and success of the operation – did we not? But let me acknowledge again, once we get below the BOD, the CEO, the CFO, the COO, the 3 Executive Vice Presidents, the 4 Senior Vice-Presidents, and the 11 Vice-Presidents, that the gravy train described above does begin to slow down. What is brought to mind is the current Occupy XX groundswell underway, where the 99%’ers, as they describe themselves, are taking a stand against the outrageous disparity between the worker bees and the Suits at the top. The F/As make their case this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eeS2a88 ... ture=share It is very telling that they hide their faces out of an apparent fear of retribution from their employer.

But moving on … my apologies for the choice of the word ignorant, if that was what you found venomous … I should have chosen differently, perhaps 4 words like “apparent lack of knowledge”. I try not to be venomous, as in malicious and spiteful, as this rarely achieves anything but enmity. What I was attempting to address was your comment about “uppity pilots and flight attendants pushing ticket prices up …”. I ignored the uppity part … were you suggesting that the pilots and F/A’s don’t know their place, and that they are taking liberties and presuming airs beyond their station? That they need to be slapped down a notch? Well, let’s not go there, let’s just stick with the “pushing ticket prices up part” which is what I attempted to address in the first place. You can choose not to accept that the crew cost portion of a ticket is minute in comparison to the other costs attached. There have been years when the crews, indeed all of the employees combined could have worked for nothing, and the company would still have lost money. So there are many other costs at play than wages and benefits. Yes, the Suits do “care about saving money easily”, emphasis on the “easily”, which is exactly why employee wages and benefits are always targeted in negotiations. It’s a much more difficult fight for the employer to find cheaper fuel, to negotiate cheaper prices for new aircraft, to get a break on airport fees. All those costs and many more are much less controllable than employee wages and benefits. So - blame the employees! A Suit somewhere up in the nest can lose $100M on fuel hedging – doesn’t matter. Blame the employees! A Suit can dream up some cost-saving idea that ends up costing the company more money than it saved. Doesn’t matter. Blame the employees! And all that blame rears its ugly head at the negotiating table. Little far fetched? I don’t think so, because it’s so easy to deny a wage and benefit increase, all in the interests of keeping “controllable” costs in line.

I’m in agreement with you that people don’t value travel. But they should. Perhaps the airlines themselves are partly to blame here. It’s getting late and that will have to be a discussion for another time.

Cheers,

PS. How do you break up a quote so that you can respond to individual parts? I’ve tried several times without success.

[torx]

Excellent response Doug! No quotes needed on that one!!
But when I do break up quotes, I just open up another window to the same page you are viewing in your browser and go that page (side/side) and copy/paste.
Always remember to add this [/quote] to the end and this to the front [quote="xxxxx"] X = name to start and finish a quote
You can also copy/paste you copmments and quotes into Notepad. When all done, just copy/paste the finished product back into the reply window!

Cheers,
t

[Mig29]

I wish I knew what they were actually offered, but say you are correct on the wage increase and other 'perks'.

Not an FA or working anywhere near this segment of the industry, so not 100% certain, but what appears to be the TA;
http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=6c7 ... 6df66b202f

Thank you.


as for Doug's last point....I don't think anything could be said more then what he wrote! Except one thing, why are we getting so emotionally caught up with this Mr. Suite?? I really don't have time or patience to "explain" myself to someone who apparently "parachutes" from time to time with his novel ideas about pilots, their excessive salaries and labor negotiations....

For all I know he could be one of those dozen+ AC executives that Doug described, sitting at his mahogany desk bored out of his mind, wasting his over payed work hours by commenting on AvCanada and jabbing at those same employees who provide his salary?! Who am I kidding, right Mr.Suite?

[Old fella]

The Suit and the Doug do have valid points, but........

I accept the fact that a cab fare from YYZ downtown Toronto is gonna be close to $50.00( I haven't done that in a while so I am assuming). However I bitch/moan/get grumpy when I can't get that $89.00 air fare on a fast moving piece of equipment that is expensive to buy/maintain/crew from YYZ to YHZ.

Besides the top end suits and airline employees, we consumers share some blame as well

[vic777]

I accept the fact that a cab fare from YYZ downtown Toronto is gonna be close to $50.00

Not to mention the $7-$10 dollar tip that the cabbie gets. I'm sure every Pilot would work for free if every passenger would just toss $10 into the cockpit on his way out. (The Captain, of course gets $7, the other Pilots split the rest)

[Mig29]

Found this on the web today....I know that acting is bad, but try to get past it and actually read those notes.

I don't see anything wrong in what they are demanding. As for the duty time/pay credit issue, it's a great idea, but I don't think they'll win that one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eeS2a88 ... re=related

[DrBoeing]

management stooge who only picks certain words instead of the whole sentence

The entire dialogue is posted in plain view. It's a forum.

I'm saying they don't want to pay for AC when they don't need to; they are able to control the airline without owning it. They also get to fill the public coffers with juicy landing fees and other nonsense. There's no way they're going to give up that sweet peach.

Suite cut the nonsense, your intent was to try and twist the intent of my post.

None the less, I fail to see how the government can deem a private company an essential service, it is unheard of.
Therefore if AC is deemed an essential service, the government has to acquire the company! Otherwise, stay out of the companies affairs.

[DrBoeing]

I'm going to assume this venomous comments implies you have a strong background in airline finance and your understanding isn't simply based around some oversimplified ALPA arithmetic you saw in a slideshow. I'll go out on a limb and assume you have a deep knowledge of controllable and non-controllable costs and that you understand airline margins industry wide track around 1-2%. But I'm losing the plot on your argument. You're saying that every airline manager, banker, economist, bay street analyst etc. doesn't actually understand business accounting? Maybe you think they don't really care about saving money easily, they would rather have huge public pissing matches and work slowdowns to fight over an issue that doesn't really matter at all. Little far fetched, no?

It always amazes me that the traveling public thinks nothing of spending $50 to take a cab to the airport (or $90 to park their car at the airport for a week), and then thinks that they are getting ripped off if they can’t fly YYZ-YOW for $99

People don't value travel, it's that simple. A small demographic does, generally the ones who can afford to pay the true cost. Most people want to get from point A-B as cheap and fast as possible, and the air fair is generally the cost barrier. If you can dream up a solution to this, please start an airline. Plenty of morons will be ready to lose money on it.

it is time to take care of the people who took care of you when the chips were down

The chips are about to be down again; Air Canada has no credible plan to make money. That's why I can buy what was once a $20 share for less than my morning coffee (and why I STILL wouldn't buy a single one).

[/quote]
I would have responded earlier, but I rarely come on here.

Just as to your comments about "Air Canada has no credible plan to make money" suggests that you are admitting that the management team currently in place, and if you are not retired would include yourself, is incompetent and should be removed by the BOD instead of giving them exponential increases in salary.
There are some very simple solutions to improve AC, number 1, clean house in the executive suite, and replace with half the amount of SUITES up there. Number 2, reduce the over bloated upper, middle,and lower management ranks, (not every department is over bloated, an issue I easily concede, but YYZ maint could easily be reduce by 30% as well as others). Number 3, Get rid of this "US AGAINST THEM" philosophy that is propagated ,practiced and promoted by management, then you may actually get employees to go that extra little bit instead of extending that middle finger.
As the CEO of Southwest has stated on a number of occasions, if my employees are happy, them our customers as well as our shareholders will be happy too. Ac also needs to lobby the Government to scrap the ACPPA which cost the company a great deal of money every year.

[Rockie]

Air Canada has no credible plan to make money.

Actually TheSuit is spot on with this comment and I wish more people knew it. Certainly LCC and alienating every single employee outside of the executive suite by continuously taking away from them isn't going to do it. By the way Suit, maybe you could tell CR and the crew that employee costs also include them.

Time for new management who have ideas other than going back to the same old trough.

[DrBoeing]

Air Canada has no credible plan to make money.

Actually TheSuit is spot on with this comment and I wish more people knew it. Certainly LCC and alienating every single employee outside of the executive suite by continuously taking away from them isn't going to do it. By the way Suit, maybe you could tell CR and the crew that employee costs also include them.

Time for new management who have ideas other than going back to the same old trough.

The problem with the lack of vision at Air Banana is that the execs know they are here short term and do not give a rats behind about future profitability, it is about how much they can pocket short term and leave. It is not as if there is no one interested in long term, it just seems that the BOD only selects those with short term personal goals.

[Solaris]

Air Canada Flight Attendant Contract Negotiation

[TheSuit]

I suspect that you were taking aim at the pilots, but once again, you failed to acknowledge that not every pilot enjoys those wages and number of working days per month. In fact, most AC pilots put in 10-11-12+ years before their salary goes into the 6-figure range – despite their providing a highly specialized skill-set that is integral to the success and profitability of the airline each and every day they show up for work.

I'll bet all the captains do, and more than half the roster must be captains. Add in some first officers and I'd say the average salary is $100K+. As for the specialized skill set, if an astronaut told me he could take me for a spin to Mars for the low price of $1M I'd have to turn it down. It's a pretty good deal, but I don't have $1M. I usually don't have even $1K to fly across Canada, which is the problem with airlines. You're selling a service no one can afford.

the current Suits hauling in high six figure and even 7 figure salaries

Why is the union so fixated on this? Hearing this from ACPA is like listening to the NBA/NFL lockout sob story: a bunch of rich guys fighting over money so they can buy speedboats. Executives are overpaid and unaccountable at Air Canada and every other company; it's a piss-off, but hardly an isolated incident. The bottom line is Air Canada pulls in $10B in revenue - $5M is immaterial. That is not cost cutting.

The F/As make their case this way

Why don't they quit? It's an entry level job and requires no education, skills, or certification. If they want money, go to Fort Mac like everyone else.

It’s a much more difficult fight for the employer to find cheaper fuel, to negotiate cheaper prices for new aircraft, to get a break on airport fees. All those costs and many more are much less controllable than employee wages and benefits. So - blame the employees! A Suit somewhere up in the nest can lose $100M on fuel hedging – doesn’t matter. Blame the employees! A Suit can dream up some cost-saving idea that ends up costing the company more money than it saved. Doesn’t matter. Blame the employees!

We are in complete agreement here. Executives will place blame wherever it will stick and get away with it. But you can't buy fuel and airplanes for cheap; you pay what they ask or they don't sell it. That's the problem with airlines. If you don't come up with some genius rabbit out of a hat trick to solve every problem, the employees and shareholders take haircuts.

[Solaris]

"Why don't they quit? it's an entry level job and requires no education, skills or certification".

What an ignorant, stupid, rude comment "TheSuit",,,,,I'm not going to waste my time replying to you.
Let's hope you never have the misfortune of experiencing an onboard emergency of any kind,,,,,,,,,,,,
This video might shed a little light on the situation,

[Doug Moore]

I usually don't have even $1K to fly across Canada, which is the problem with airlines. You're selling a service no one can afford.

I disagree with you here. The airlines are providing a service that people don’t want to pay for, in part because the airlines themselves have cultivated the idea that air travel can be cheap. Air travel is not, and should not be cheap – at least not on the backs of the people who are providing it.

Just out of curiosity, I checked VIA Rail, Greyhound and the airlines for travel YVR-YYZ for this Friday, 21 Oct. Here we go: Sit in a train seat for 4 ½ days for $441.28, or if you’d like to be able to sleep in a berth, $898.80, and for $1728.16 you can enjoy some privacy in a cabin for those 4 ½ days. You can sit on a Greyhound bus for 3 days for $217 (non-refundable Internet fare only, $242 non-refundable otherwise). It might be worth mentioning that the train only departs a couple of times each week, whereas the bus departs twice daily (if schedule happens to be important to you). And then there’s the cost of meals for 3 or 4 days.

Westjet offers 17 departures this Friday with fares from $379 (lowest) and AC offers 20 departures with lowest fare of $329. Make your way to the airport and less than 5 hours later you’re in YYZ. $440 to sit upright on a train for 4 ½ days, $217 to sit upright on a bus for 3 days or $329 to sit on an airplane for less than 5 hours. Hmmmm …. (yes, I realize that not every seat, at least on AC, is sold at the lowest price).

And you sit at your keyboard and tell the world that the airlines are selling a service that no one can afford? Horse Manure! WS and AC alone are providing 37 choices of departure times at a price that is a steal and you appear to feel that the airlines and their employees are obligated to subsidize their service (wages) so that you can “afford” it? If the airlines could get their act together, those of you who can “afford” it, would be doing your traveling by bus and/or train. And yes, in such instance there would be fewer airline jobs until people appreciated the real value of air travel, but I gotta tell you, airline employees are fed up and pissed-off with employers and traveling public alike who place so little value upon the very people who provide the service you say you can’t afford. You want cheap – take the bus – and enjoy the ride!

Why is the union so fixated on this? Hearing this from ACPA is like listening to the NBA/NFL lockout sob story: a bunch of rich guys fighting over money so they can buy speedboats. Executives are overpaid and unaccountable at Air Canada and every other company; it's a piss-off, but hardly an isolated incident. The bottom line is Air Canada pulls in $10B in revenue - $5M is immaterial. That is not cost cutting.

And why, may I ask, are you so fixated on employee’s wages; wages that over the last 10 years have not even kept pace with inflation? Executives are “overpaid and unaccountable … a piss-off” you say, but airline employees have to swallow that crap and keep their mouth shut because you think theirs is a sob story – but for the Suits, it’s not?

I agree with you, $5M in a $10B+ company is nothing – except to the worker bees who are living pay-cheque to pay-cheque. Their employer is telling them at the negotiating table that there’s no money for even a cost-of living increase let alone a real uplift. But let’s not question how an executive can enjoy a year over year wage increase of more than 100% of their already 6 or 7-figure salary? Is such questioning too “uppity” by your standards?

I’ve said it before and I’ll repeat it again. If the company wants the employees to tighten their belts – then the tightening starts at the top. If the Suits, including yourself, can’t appreciate or understand the significance of that (it’s called leadership) then don’t expect the employees to genuflect at the negotiating table and thank the gods opposite that they’ve got a job.

We are in complete agreement here. Executives will place blame wherever it will stick and get away with it.

Well, as the days, months and years ahead unfold, executives will come to find that employees are no longer willing either to accept the blame or allow the Suits to get away with it. Most people allow themselves to be pushed only so far, and then they push back. The Suits may not appreciate their employees but the fact is not missed that the Suits appreciate themselves; and they look after themselves – exceedingly well. They do so on the strength of the revenue the employees produce with each passenger they safely move from A to B. If, for instance, the pilots were to hand the Suits a hull loss once a month, in short order the airline would have no passengers and no one would have a job. But that doesn't happen, the pilots, and the great majority of all the employees, do their jobs exceedingly well to make sure that doesn't happen. The Suit’s job is to generate, with each seat, the revenue required to make the business profitable. They always seem to have trouble holding up their end of the operation.

[bmc]

It might be worth mentioning that no all management get top dollar. In many instances, they make less than union staff, mainly because they have no union behind them. The top few have unjustifiable compensation. There are probably less than 20 at AC. You have all kinds of management people working in every department that have not seen salary increases and feel the pinch. They, regrettably, are not represented and have no collective voice. They make the bulk of Suits at airlines. I am assuming that is well known on this thread. Otherwise, I suggest pulling your head out. It is not unlike calling all union staff thugs.

[DrBoeing]

Why is the union so fixated on this? Hearing this from ACPA is like listening to the NBA/NFL lockout sob story: a bunch of rich guys fighting over money so they can buy speedboats. Executives are overpaid and unaccountable at Air Canada and every other company; it's a piss-off, but hardly an isolated incident. The bottom line is Air Canada pulls in $10B in revenue - $5M is immaterial. That is not cost cutting.

Why don't they quit? It's an entry level job and requires no education, skills, or certification. If they want money, go to Fort Mac like everyone else.

You're kidding me right?????? These same execs insisted that wage cuts must happen or the airline will liquidate, they also have us now going 10 plus years with out a raise. Milton's statememt of do more with less, all these were done with the exception of the suites. So how can you honestly say now to the employees you will only give them chump change when all the while the executive compensation has risen exponentially, just the CEO wage has gone up 1500% since 2001, but yet here is 2011 you want us the employees who saved your bacon, not once but several times to get jump change and be happy with it! You might have been able to peddle that dog doo if the execs and management had endured the same sort of cuts and no increases the likes of the employees, but it did not happen that way, the SUITES have made themselves very wealthy off of our backs. And the employees are now telling you where to go. 3 out of 4 TA's have been turned down, that should have sent you SUITES a clear message

As to your FA comment, the Suites wonder why the relationships with the employees sucks so bad!!!! You condescending S.O.B!

[Doug Moore]

It might be worth mentioning that no all management get top dollar. In many instances, they make less than union staff, mainly because they have no union behind them. The top few have unjustifiable compensation. There are probably less than 20 at AC. You have all kinds of management people working in every department that have not seen salary increases and feel the pinch. They, regrettably, are not represented and have no collective voice. They make the bulk of Suits at airlines. I am assuming that is well known on this thread. Otherwise, I suggest pulling your head out. It is not unlike calling all union staff thugs.

Good Morning bmc,

I hear you – it doesn’t hurt to mention it at all! As I wrote above a few days ago: “once we get below the BOD, the CEO, the CFO, the COO, the 3 Executive Vice Presidents, the 4 Senior Vice-Presidents, and the 11 Vice-Presidents, the gravy train described above does begin to slow down.” Perhaps I should have used the word “stops”.

My disapproval rests with the senior leadership in the company, those senior executives whose compensation, in my view, is out of all proportion to the contribution they make to the success of the company, and which can only be considered excessive by any comparison to the compensation of every other employee. There are many employees, particularly in managerial positions, who perhaps wear a “suit” to work but I don’t consider them “Suits” in this discussion. I can understand how that distinction might not be obvious and I thank you for pointing that out.

Here is some interesting reading: http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/inves ... _proxy.pdf


Cheers,

[DrBoeing]

It might be worth mentioning that no all management get top dollar. In many instances, they make less than union staff, mainly because they have no union behind them. The top few have unjustifiable compensation. There are probably less than 20 at AC. You have all kinds of management people working in every department that have not seen salary increases and feel the pinch. They, regrettably, are not represented and have no collective voice. They make the bulk of Suits at airlines. I am assuming that is well known on this thread. Otherwise, I suggest pulling your head out. It is not unlike calling all union staff thugs.

BMC, I do not think anyone here will disagree with you. I too was in lower level management for a period and made the decison to return to the union ranks.
I firmly believe that the majority of the management comment are direct to the upper levels of management.
I have seen first hand how poorly lower management are treated and as you mention, they have to recourse in the form of union representation.

[Rockie]

From what I've seen so far nobody is treated more shabbily than the lower levels of supervisor/management. Many burn out and quit or are forced out at some point.

[bmc]

From what I've seen so far nobody is treated more shabbily than the lower levels of supervisor/management. Many burn out and quit or are forced out at some point.

One of the leading reasons I packed bags and left the country. The move proved advantageous and never looked back.

There is no voice for these people and you will not hear them. I know for a fact that some airport management do not earn as much as the unionized staff they are responsible for.