Near Miss

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:44 pm

ndb :

Look at it this way, larger faster airplanes are equipped with TCAS for identification of other aircraft that may be a hazzard to them.

Also these aircraft fly considerably faster than light aircraft if you have a mode C transponder and it is on it gives the crew in the faster airplane a proximity warning and your position in relation to their aircraft..

Remember they are most likely carring a load of passengers, if your mother was on their airplane would you not want to make her flight as safe as you could?

I hope that will give you another look at the transponder issue.

Cat Driver:

RB211 · Post by **RB211** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:59 pm

Good Lord, ndb! Are you this thick really, or just being contrary for fun?

I haven't read where anyone has said everyone that owns an airplane must install a transponder. All anyone has said is, if the transponder is installed, why not use it? Having TCAS only assists me and others visually locate traffic more quickly, that seems like a good thing for all concerned. No?

You still have not given one good reason to not use a transponder if installed. Surely, with a stance as uwavering as yours, you must have a good reason for your position. Please enlighten us.

If you cannot provide some logical reasoning, then I can only conclude you lack any level of airmanship. I find that disturbing.

ndb · Post by **ndb** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:43 am

I'll try to keep this simple: there is this arbitrary concept of "airspace" that Transport (actually Nav) Canada applies to the "atmosphere".

In some "classes" of "airspace", a mode C transponder is legally required. In those "classes" of "airspace" airline pilots don't have to look outside the window, and get to make smart remarks to ATC about their "nintendo". How cute!

However, in other "classes" of "airspace" a mode C transponder is not legally required to be turned on, or even installed. In these "classes" of "airspace" it might be a good idea for airline pilots to either look out the windows, or if they have become so heavily dependent upon their high tech toys that they are helpless without them, perhaps they should just not go there.

Now, everything I have said so far on this topic, to the best of my knowledge, is:

1) truthful
2) consistent
3) in complete accordance with the regulations

which is a standard likely far exceeding anything else you may read on the internet today.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:56 am

ndb, you just don't get it do you?

If your airmanship is this bad, I really do hope you're not a pilot. I'd be afraid to learn of all your bad habits. You must realize that safety for yourself and others goes beyond just following the CARs. TC tried to make the CARs so they can be open to all sorts of situations and people, such as aircraft without a transponder on board. But its people like you who abuse those priviliges that force regs to be made being more specific, such as transponders being required on board all aircraft with no exception, and being turned on.

Airmanship is the practising of safe flying, to yourself, your passengers, and those around you. It involved minimizing risk as much as practically possible, which sometimes involves going above and beyond the regs, especially if it only involves flipping one switch. Being curteous to others to help them, and make their flight more safe is also involved in airmanship. Next time I cross you on a taxiway at night, I'll make sure to keep my landing and taxi lights on so you get blinded. I mean why not? There's no reg telling me I have to turn it off!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:30 am

This guy is just a wind up artist, no one could be this ignorant.

At least I hope he's not serious??

Cat

Benwa · Post by **Benwa** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:33 am

TROLL ALERT ! TROLL ALERT !

Benwa · Post by **Benwa** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:37 am

Come on NDB, give us a break. If you don't want to turn your transponder ON... well DON'T ! just keep it off. But keep in mind that it would be a lot safer if it was ON. That's it.

Safety should always come first in aviation. If you don't understand that, I sure hope you'll never fly close to me.

I don't even understand why I'm typing this... you're a major freak.

ndb · Post by **ndb** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:41 am

I'll say this for you, Benwa: you've got balls!

Benwa · Post by **Benwa** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:45 am

Thanks for the update !
Last time I checked they were still there !
If you are refering to the fact that I post my true identity on this forum, well that's not having balls. It's just standing by my opinions. If you don't like what I write, just give a call, we'll talk this through.

Benoit Dufresne

RB211 · Post by **RB211** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:04 am

Cat Driver wrote:This guy is just a wind up artist, no one could be this ignorant.

At least I hope he's not serious??

Cat

I am going to chose to agree with you there Cat. That level of ingnorance would be difficult to comprehend.

Troll alert is likely indeed.

If not then it is Moron alert!!

JayVee · Post by **JayVee** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:33 am

I had a similar debate on another forum a couple years ago with a poster named "me."
The comments from ndb are almost verbatim to those from "me."
Apparently ndb feels threatened by airline pilots and their jargon, and He/she can't understand the concept of safety, and associates the use of technology with boys playing with high-tech toys.
There is no doubt in my mind that ndb is a disgruntled troll. Maybe he's the guy who drives on the freeway at night with his headlights off.
To those who care about your safety and the safety of others, please use your transponder if you have one.
To ndb, flame away arsehole.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:02 am

Whatever NDB's agenda is, it doesn't surprise me. I've met people who are this conflictive on purpose-- they won't do it because, dammit, I don't have to!!! These are the same people who get steamed when the FAA or Transport "regulate common sense," which is the next thing that we could expect following an accident with a TCAS equipped aircraft and an airplane that had his transponder turned off.

On another subject, I find it annoying and useless when local pilots make position calls like "over Fred's Chicken Farm at Two point Five." It would be really helpful to us peasants from out of town if position could be given in reference to a charted landmark (like the airport, a VOR or an NDB)-- ie. "10 miles southwest at two thousand five hundred inbound for landing".

ndb · Post by **ndb** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:37 am

I find it annoying and useless when IFR pilots make position calls referring to obscure waypoints like "over XTZFR at Two point Five." It would be really helpful to us peasants not from out of town if position could be given in reference to a charted landmark (like the airport, a VOR or an NDB)-- ie. "10 miles southwest at two thousand five hundred inbound for landing"

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:37 am

This is one of the most brutal conversations I've seen...shame on us for responding to such stupidity

This guy clearly has his head so far up his arse that he isn't going to hear us.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:50 am

The scary part is whoever it is seems to know something about flying....

Good God, can you imagine there actually could be someone like that flying somewhere near you?

If that were a dog I would have it put down due to its being to sick to cure.

Cat

RB211 · Post by **RB211** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:51 am

CAL wrote:What are the parameters on the typical tcas system?...I mean how far away.....etc.

I dont have one:) I guess when you only do 100kts you have some time to alter course

Sorry this is late CAL. Kinda got distracted trying to make sense out of ndb and didn't reply to your question.

Try this link and go to 'Operations' there is a good document detailing all you would want to know aboput TCAS, and then some!!

http://www.smartcockpit.com/

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 12:18 pm

Piggy backing on that answer, different TCAS units have different ranges of display. The one on the aircraft I fly shows traffic up to 12 miles.

The TCAS' collision avoidance functions not so much based on distance, but rather on closure rates (time to impact). Most jet aircraft operate at an IAS of 250 knots below 10,000 feet (although sometimes it can be more).

Assuming you are flying head on with an Airbus at 100 knots indicated and him at 250 knots indicated at 5000 feet, your closure rate will be aproximately 385 knots True Airspeed. Thats at almost 6½ miles per minute! Remember that it is hard to spot traffic head on. Lets say that you can see traffic 4 miles away on a good day. However, both of you are going head on. The profile of a small aircraft, coming head on might not be seen more than a mile or two (another good reason to turn on your landing rights). Assuming the crew is super alert and sees you at 2 miles, there are a mere 14 seconds to properly spot you, identify you as a hazard, and take evasive action.

Both the mid-airs between a PSA Boeing 727 and a Cessna 172 in San Diego and the AeroMexico DC-9 and the light aircraft in Los Angeles make interesting reads.

By the way, don't think that turboprops go too much slower than the jets on descents. Dash 8's regularly true out at 250 KTAS or greater during descent. That can make for a closure rate head-on with a light aircraft at 6 miles per minute.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:31 pm

Cat:
I digress, I know. But I didn't notice if you had the same signature in the old forum, but I really like your quote. So true!

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:35 pm

On a similar note, if you have TCAS, that doesn't excuse you from making 126.7 calls when you are decending out of the flight levels and then working out conflicts orally with conflicting airplanes.

Certain companies operating 1900s in MB and NWONT have bad habits of coming tearing down out of the flight levels with nary a call doing TCAS descents.

TCAS isn't a replacement for you eyes and position reports, merely a supplement.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:36 pm

ndb wrote:I find it annoying and useless when IFR pilots make position calls referring to obscure waypoints like "over XTZFR at Two point Five." It would be really helpful to us peasants not from out of town if position could be given in reference to a charted landmark (like the airport, a VOR or an NDB)-- ie. "10 miles southwest at two thousand five hundred inbound for landing"

Obviously you do not have an Instrument Rating. Unless I'm understanding the situation wrong, positions reports in uncontrolled IFR should be made at checkpoints, indicating the checkpoint's name. If you look closely at the Victor Airways on your VNC, ndb, you'll noticed the checkpints are marked with their names labeled. This should help you find that traffic. Good luck with the rest of your training!

cedarjet · Post by **cedarjet** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:50 pm

In uncontrolled IFR, when saying your position, it's nice to say the IFR and add in something for the VFR guys, like "5 to the south west inbound rwy 32" or something that they can get an idea of where we are, rather than "Xray inbound".

I'd Rather Be Flying · Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:50 pm

It seems as though I picked a good subject to touch on. Good comments everyone (well, most of you). The bottom line is safety; and by correctly announcing your intentions while in the air (at the right place and time) will help to prevent incidents or worse.

Stay alert (IFR or VFR). Use you XPR in uncontrolled airspace. Make the right radio calls. Fly safe.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:56 pm

amen bro

Leaky Float · Post by **Leaky Float** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:15 am

NDB- I am fully aware that I am going to get pummeled for sticking up for you, however I feel obligated to do so. Some have been asking what you are doing to be so skiddish. What the answer to that is I haven't a clue.
I do however know my own behaviors rather well and there are times that I don't want ANYONE knowing where I am, or those to whome I am with. Why might one want the whole damn world knowing where you are every moment of your life? I charish deeply not only my own personal security, privacy, BUT the general safety of aviation as well. And once again, flying without a transponder (on or not having one) does not mean that you (we) are a danger to the public.

P.S. Cat- I almost always agree with you with your perspectives toward aviation, the Govt. and morons in general however I must disagree this time.

P.S.S- To the rest of you I totally understand your perspective, and I comend yaul on your ideals, however I must humbly disagree.

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:22 am

Leaky, I disaagre with you, but I also have to say that it looks like it's you that's got balls!!