Comm Failure in IMC in Uncontrolled Airspace

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Fri May 06, 2005 1:02 pm

Hey guys,

I understand that the comm failure procedures are spelled out pretty clearly in RAC 6.3.2.2.

However, let's assume you are flying in IMC in uncontrolled airspace to a destination that is also outside controlled airspace. Do you think it would be good judgment to follow those procedures in RAC 6.3.2.2 (i.e. to maintain enroute altitude and hold at the approach fix until your ETA expires)? Or, do you think it would be wiser to simply forgo the hold and commence an approach immediately?

It just seems to me that if you are holding over the FAF or other approach aid for an extended period of time, there is absolutely no way the other traffic can know you are there, and thus, a possible conflict will result. It seems safer to simply land ASAP, all while complying with the approach requirements.

Has anyone experienced a situation like this?

Thanks for all comments,

Chris.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Fri May 06, 2005 2:56 pm

I think the answer lies in "uncontrolled".
Controllers love to tell you you are off their strip. If your comm fail happens afterwards, they are not talking to you so don't know you have a failure. Nor does anyone else.
It would, I believe, be a curious coincidence of circumstances for anyone to know about you.
Unless of course, you are dealing with an RCO type of FSS service.
Holding with a comm failure may well make you an airborne hazard to others.
Are you also out of cellphone range?
Comm failures are quite rare, most often accompanied by a total electrical failure, so your hypothetical scenario is probably more scary than you envisaged.
I would probably land asap.
(C-HRIS, do you lie awake and think these things up instead of getting "duty" sleep??????
Cheers,

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:08 pm

snaproll20 wrote:(C-HRIS, do you lie awake and think these things up instead of getting "duty" sleep??????
Cheers,

Of course I do! Who needs sleep??

In regards to an MF with a ground station at location... I guess the people manning the station will be expecting you at a certain time, so I would definetly think holding would be wise in this case; however, if it was an ATF and there was absolutely noone monitoring traffic, then I still think a landing would be wise.

Time to watch Macgyver now. If anyone has more comments, please feel free to add!

Chris.

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Fri May 06, 2005 4:37 pm

C-HRIS ask yourself why the procedures are the way they are.
Are you maintaining the last assigned altitude and holding so that other "aircraft" who, even in controlled airspace, know nothing about you, don't hit you?
Or are these procedures in place so that ATC might have a reasonable chance of maintaining sepatation with you and others now that they can't talk with you?

Hint its the later.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:01 pm

FamilyGuy wrote: Or are these procedures in place so that ATC might have a reasonable chance of maintaining sepatation with you and others now that they can't talk with you?

Good point; however, in uncontrolled airspace, there is no ATC. Imagine you are way up North, out of radar-coverage and in uncontrolled airspace. ATC does not provide any clearances outside of controlled airspace, so I would think that any other a/c would not have any idea whatsoever that you are holding over the FAF or some other fix.

Silver Lining · Post by **Silver Lining** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:14 pm

What about a complete electrical failure, in IMC, bad weather at destination, night time? Nav aids and radios aren't working. What do you do? If you did have cell coverage how would you handle it? How about no cell coverage? I've often wondered about this scenario! How many pilots carry a backup GPS or NAVCOM radio? I don't, and it has never really come up in any discussions at work.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:17 pm

Another angle to look at this from, say you file only a flight itinerary, since you are in only in uncontrolled airspace. Who's to know what your ETA is other than the trusted person you filed with?

Anti-Ice · Post by **Anti-Ice** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:19 pm

RSC: Flight Itineraries can also be filed with FSS

What if, for this IFR flight you decided to file a plan/itinerary with FSS. Say by a ground based sat phone at your point of departure.
Now let's say the destination is a busy mining camp...
Now let's say another aircraft wishes to depart the mining camp at the same time as your ETA. Now if they also file a IFR itinerary with FSS then wouldn't FSS notice the conflict in times? The fact that you are estimating the camp at the same time the other aircraft is filing for takeoff? I think they would and would advise the aircraft on the ground that there is an inbound IFR for that time. They might still accept an itinerary for that departure time however at least now the other departing craft might choose to wait or leave earlier.
But in reality, at least if I were the departing pilot and I couldn't raise you on the radio I would assume you were delayed and blast off. So that probably isn't a great plan. Also most people don't file itineraries (with FSS), they just blast off on a company note.
Also in reality your eta is probably quite close to your actual arrival time. So it is kinda a moot point.
For me it would depend on how busy the destination is. If it were a very busy mine then no way would I try and go in lost comm. I'd probably return to departure airport and/or get VFR so I could see my traffic.

Check Pilot · Post by **Check Pilot** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:48 pm

C_HRIS

As to your original question - you are operating in what is known as "the big sky concept". i.e. - "Hope" you don't have a midair in IMC.

Uncontrolled airspace means just that - uncontrolled. You are on your own and if you are IMC the only thing you can hope for is that you miss another airbourne object by more than the wingspan or cabin height.

An FSS nearby however, implies some kind of control or communication so hopefully ATC will have alerted the FSS/CARS/whatever/ that you might be milling about in the sky somewhere and give the other guys a chance to make some kind of decision to come anywhere near the airspace or not.

Your question is tremendiously hypothetical, since Com fail questions and situations can go on forever and ever in the minds of folks that hope it never happens for real.

Super question.

This thread may go on for awhile.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Fri May 06, 2005 9:04 pm

Anti-Ice wrote: Also most people don't file itineraries, they just blast off on a company note

Isn't a company note a flight itinerary? If not then how are you satisfying CAR 602.73?

Check Pilot · Post by **Check Pilot** » Fri May 06, 2005 10:38 pm

Company Notes are just that. Company. i.e. Secretary, wife, boss, friend, or whatever.
The rules allow for that, but all it means is that if the aircraft goes missing, hopefully someone that you have designated as your flight watch will know who to call so SAR can start before you die in the desert of the Antarctic.

Itineraries are filed with FSS/ATC. Those folks will be your flight watch for you instead of your buddy, wife, company, or whoever you want.

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:58 am

Check Pilot wrote: Itineraries are filed with FSS/ATC. Those folks will be your flight watch for you instead of your buddy, wife, company, or whoever you want.

Really? I've never filed an itinerary with ATC or FSS, just with a "responsible person". Then again, I've never flown uncontrolled IFR, either. Am I missing something here?

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:17 am

Pugster wrote: Really? I've never filed an itinerary with ATC or FSS, just with a "responsible person". Then again, I've never flown uncontrolled IFR, either. Am I missing something here?

You can file an itenary with a responsible person, OR, with an FSS, ATC, or a CAR. See RAC 3.6.2 in the AIP or CAR 602.75.

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:19 am

Thanks for the clarification and the reference!

C-HRIS wrote:
Pugster wrote: Really? I've never filed an itinerary with ATC or FSS, just with a "responsible person". Then again, I've never flown uncontrolled IFR, either. Am I missing something here?
You can file an itenary with a responsible person, OR, with an FSS, ATC, or a CAR. See RAC 3.6.2 in the AIP or CAR 602.75.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat May 07, 2005 11:35 am

Check Pilot wrote:Company Notes are just that. Company. i.e. Secretary, wife, boss, friend, or whatever. The rules allow for that

Actually the rules say you need a flight plan or flight itinerary.

Requirement to File a Flight Plan or a Flight Itinerary

602.73 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in IFR flight unless an IFR flight plan has been filed.

(2) No pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight unless a VFR flight plan or a VFR flight itinerary has been filed, except where the flight is conducted within 25 nautical miles of the departure aerodrome.

(3) A pilot-in-command may file an IFR flight itinerary instead of an IFR flight plan where

(a) the flight is conducted in part or in whole outside controlled airspace; or

(b) facilities are inadequate to permit the communication of flight plan information to an air traffic control unit, a flight service station or a community aerodrome radio station.

A flight itinerary contains the same information as a flight plan but

602.72(2) A flight itinerary shall be filed with a responsible person, an air traffic control unit, a flight service station or a community aerodrome radio station.

Not

Check Pilot wrote:Itineraries are filed with FSS/ATC.

There was recently a situation where a flight plan was filed with a wife who did not meet the requirements of a responsible person

"responsible person" - means an individual who has agreed with the person who has filed a flight itinerary to ensure that the following are notified in the manner prescribed in this Division, if the aircraft is overdue

as she did not know how to report the aircraft overdue. And did not.

There still seems to be a lot of confusion on flight plans/itineraries and IFR clearances. Every day i hear "Cancelling IFR proceeding on a company flight note." Cancelling IFR does not close your flight plan, and a company note (as far as i can tell) is just a shortcut for those with trouble pronouncing I-TIH-NUH-RARE-E

.

swede · Post by **swede** » Sun May 08, 2005 11:23 am

If you are in uncontrolled airspace headed to a mf airport on a flight plan there is zero point in holding at an app fix. You will need to land, call atc to close and notify your comp ops. End of story. If you are on a company note you can omit one phone call, real complicated..

ready2move · Post by **ready2move** » Sun May 08, 2005 4:13 pm

Controled or Uncontroled I think I would do the same thing: Ausming my ETA filed is close, I would slow as needed to get there as near as possible to my ETA.

Benwa · Post by **Benwa** » Sun May 08, 2005 6:11 pm

Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace with a comm failure, would any of you consider flying let's say 100' above planned altitude ?... so you don't fly at the same altitude as anybody else. (hopefully...)