low time pilot looking for advice

[etihadCC]

hello all,

looking for some direction from those who have been through it all/going through it now. im a low time CPL in Canada. trying to decide if I should do the multi IFR or Instructors course ? I cant afford both. I am willing to go anywhere and fly anything so long as im making progress and hopefully some money. is it worth it to do the multi IFR and go international looking for a job? or should i do the instructors rating and try and look for a job in canada? trouble is, canadian companies arent hiring low time pilots unless your an instructor and willing to teach for a few years. my ideal would be to go to asia fly a Caravan something like that, but what are the odds of that happening with 250 hours and a multi IFR? any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Big Pistons Forever]

hello all,

looking for some direction from those who have been through it all/going through it now. im a low time CPL in Canada. trying to decide if I should do the multi IFR or Instructors course ? I cant afford both. I am willing to go anywhere and fly anything so long as im making progress and hopefully some money. is it worth it to do the multi IFR and go international looking for a job? or should i do the instructors rating and try and look for a job in canada? trouble is, canadian companies arent hiring low time pilots unless your an instructor and willing to teach for a few years. my ideal would be to go to asia fly a Caravan something like that, but what are the odds of that happening with 250 hours and a multi IFR? any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Frankly from the tone of your post you should not be an instructor.

My 02 cents: work the ramp keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open and work your butt off.
Prove your worth and you will get a chance to earn a place in the right seat where your learning will really start.

Bottom line: nobody owes you a job it is up to you to go get it.

[2namelt]

.

[x15]

Go north.

I worked up north and managed to get six of my friends a job up there with me when there were no jobs. 4 of them were low timers. Within a year many were full time on a twin turbine making a decent buck. Within a year of that some were captains.

Good luck. Look at the glass half full. If someone tells you otherwise; Poke them in the eye because they cannot see the forest for the trees.

Cheers

[etihadCC]

thanks x15. do u have any ideas on where would be a good starting point?

[North Shore]

C'mon, dude: get out a map, do a Canada411 search for aviation companies, place them as dots on that map, do some research for names of Chief Pilots, print out resumes and covering letters stating the same, and then connect the dots on the map in your car.

There's a bit of inspiration here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=76992

Do some searches on here, and you'll find lots of tips for trying to keep road expenses to a mimimum.

I'm sure that you were sold the same bill of goods we all were: growing industry, retiring baby boomers, pilot shortage, etc.... it might be true, but the shortage is of experienced pilots. You just finished the easy part of flying - now is the cast-iron b!tch of getting the first job, and it's what really separates the adults from the children. It *might* happen that you'll get a job in your home town (Making the big assumption here that you are from a big city, as your handle suggests) but for those jobs you are competing with all of the other low-timers who couldn't/wouldn't leave the city, plus all of the rest of us who did, and want to get back to everything that we left behind when we went up north. Also, the 'fun' in aviation isn't exotic layovers in far-away places, and pushing buttons at 38k' to get there - it's the interesting route that you took to get into that seat: 3AM Medevacs, Fishing charters, counting Moose at low level, sked flights to Shamattawa, the list is endless...

Get out there and get going!

Good Luck.

[x15]

If I had it to do all over again. Knowing what I know now. At 200 hours I would goto Perimeter. I would work my ass off on the ramp in Thompson. Study for my IFR when I wasnt loading pop and chips into the Metro for Shamattawa. When your sim comes in 8 months or so (Ive heard a little as 3 months) you get your shot to go right seat. Your hard work will get you the chance to LEARN from guys that walked in your shoes and have a wealth of knowledge to share. After that you will get your first command job and become the teacher at the same time.

The guys I met in YTH have done really well for themselves. Perimeter is very well respected. Its hard work. But you get what you put in. Dont bitch. Find ways to work harder and longer and look at the glass half full and you will go far.

[etihadCC]

Just looking at some feedback : thanks to everyone for the advice. it seems to be the general theme in Canada to go north.

What do you guys think of this plan. Im currently working for a UAE based carrier a job that allows me to travel the world. Im thinking of doing the multi IFR and using my travel allowances to find a flying job. What are the odds of getting a flying job outside of Canada? I hear of guys with 250 hours and a multi IFR getting hired onto the right seat of a Caravan in Indonesia, Chnia etc. Question is, if you had the chance to search the world for a job, would you take that road first before doing an instructor rating and staying local (assuming those are your choices)?

AND if there is anyone out here that has done just that PLEASE get in touch with me i desperately need some questions answered.

Guys, your feedback is so appreciated so please, enlighten me.

[KenoraPilot]

The general suggestion, is either head North there are many good operators up there willing to give someone a chance. Either that or the bush in NWO and work a dock for a summer and earn a 185 spot. I followed that up with Perimeter Aviation, which is growing faster than it can keep up. Just my two cents

[LaurentDussolier]

Its very hard indeed to find employment in this area. I myself just graduated from with an approved College degree in aviation including the full CPL with IR\ME. Even with minimal acceptable qualifications, many organizations in Canada are currently not hiring, even for ground positions. Its great to hear people say: wait....your time will come....But the fact is, time is counted, and I cannot sit on my bum forever waiting for that job. Nor do I have enough funds (following College and Flight Training) to go on a road trip across a whole continent. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to have employment in my field, but the system that has been established in Canada just complicates things further.

A few individuals that I know personally have all been hired on major airlines just out of school! Some are in Europe, some are in Asia. THIS is the WAY it should be! Most of all the countries in the world are doing this so why not US! Like I was discussing with other people on other threads on this website, companies are just shooting themselves in the foot. Most companies in Canada require 1000 to 2000 hours minimum to get hired on, even as a First Officer. I have heard many stories where individuals with 2000 hours got hired as F\O at 20,000 dollars a year, and left a few weeks later because they received a better contract, better pay and better work environment. The company that hired them is going to scream, yell and get frustrated. Its always going to be like that no matter what, wether we like it or not. Then here comes an interesting point, and this point is an official procedures in most of the countries out there: why not hire a 250 hour guy that will guarantee the company a safe 4 to 5 years? That pilot is going to be happy as hell....the company is going to be happy to place and train a SECURE INVESTMENT! And there goes the problem for pilot shortage! Many people reading this will surely find something to attack what I just said. But set aside all the swords and weapons of mass destruction for 5 minutes, and thing of what I just said from many angles with an open mind.

This way, the low paying pilot jobs will always be filled, then the higher payed positions will constantly be filled once low timers begin building up and transitioning. This is what people don't understand and I would solve many problems. Insurance and Training Captains....thats not an issue. There are hundreds and hundreds of organizations that hire low time drivers and those two obstacles are NOT an issue!

I have been looking for a job for 2 years, and I just had 1 job interview within 300 sent resumes. Plus that job was overseas in South-East Asia, so I had to fly there and stay there on my own expenses. Bottom line, they hired this South African Guy that had 1200 hours plus a Caravan experience....How long did he stay there??? 1 month! How long would I have stayed there if I was hired? I would probably still be working there amid the limited living conditions.

I don't want to bore all of you because I am sure you guys have other and better stuff to do. All I am saying after all that thread, and this is also directed to companies: give us a chance, we are motivated and willing to stay a few years.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A few individuals that I know personally have all been hired on major airlines just out of school! Some are in Europe, some are in Asia. THIS is the WAY it should be! Most of all the countries in the world are doing this so why not US!

UMMMMMM......... I can think of a few reasons but the number one personal reason would be because Captains do not want to get saddled with a whiny crybaby KNOW NOTHING wannabes like you. They actually like the right seater to know what they are doing so that when the chips are down they can depend on the experience they bring to the job. Jazz tried the straight from college to the right seat of a RJ/Dash8 but the candidates required so much extra training my sources tell me managements enthusiasm for this program is considerably reduced and so it will never amount to more than a small fraction of the new hires.

[cdnpilot77]

Its very hard indeed to find employment in this area. I myself just graduated from with an approved College degree in aviation including the full CPL with IR\ME. Even with minimal acceptable qualifications, many organizations in Canada are currently not hiring, even for ground positions. Its great to hear people say: wait....your time will come....But the fact is, time is counted, and I cannot sit on my bum forever waiting for that job. Nor do I have enough funds (following College and Flight Training) to go on a road trip across a whole continent. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to have employment in my field, but the system that has been established in Canada just complicates things further.

A few individuals that I know personally have all been hired on major airlines just out of school! Some are in Europe, some are in Asia. THIS is the WAY it should be! Most of all the countries in the world are doing this so why not US! Like I was discussing with other people on other threads on this website, companies are just shooting themselves in the foot. Most companies in Canada require 1000 to 2000 hours minimum to get hired on, even as a First Officer. I have heard many stories where individuals with 2000 hours got hired as F\O at 20,000 dollars a year, and left a few weeks later because they received a better contract, better pay and better work environment. The company that hired them is going to scream, yell and get frustrated. Its always going to be like that no matter what, wether we like it or not. Then here comes an interesting point, and this point is an official procedures in most of the countries out there: why not hire a 250 hour guy that will guarantee the company a safe 4 to 5 years? That pilot is going to be happy as hell....the company is going to be happy to place and train a SECURE INVESTMENT! And there goes the problem for pilot shortage! Many people reading this will surely find something to attack what I just said. But set aside all the swords and weapons of mass destruction for 5 minutes, and thing of what I just said from many angles with an open mind.

This way, the low paying pilot jobs will always be filled, then the higher payed positions will constantly be filled once low timers begin building up and transitioning. This is what people don't understand and I would solve many problems. Insurance and Training Captains....thats not an issue. There are hundreds and hundreds of organizations that hire low time drivers and those two obstacles are NOT an issue!

I have been looking for a job for 2 years, and I just had 1 job interview within 300 sent resumes. Plus that job was overseas in South-East Asia, so I had to fly there and stay there on my own expenses. Bottom line, they hired this South African Guy that had 1200 hours plus a Caravan experience....How long did he stay there??? 1 month! How long would I have stayed there if I was hired? I would probably still be working there amid the limited living conditions.

I don't want to bore all of you because I am sure you guys have other and better stuff to do. All I am saying after all that thread, and this is also directed to companies: give us a chance, we are motivated and willing to stay a few years.

You do realise that those "fortunate" people in Europe and Asia have paid €35,000-€100,000 so that the airlines can have the privledge of retaining their services right? So you say you have no money left over after your cpl/mifr, welcome to the club, you are like just about every other pilot out there including myself. How would you have the €35-100k to spend on a type rating if you cant afford a month long drive at a fraction of the cost? Or do you expect that to be paid for by the company, after all you spent 50k on your cpl? the successful pilots dont cry about it, they make things happen for themselves.

Of those 300+ resumes you sent, how many did you follow up with a phone call? How many did you follow up a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 20th time? I think most people here do not particularily care what they do in asia and europe, as long as they dont bring it here. What they do care about and take great offence to is young people with the sense of entitlement that didnt do their research prior to spending 50k plus on a cpl/mifr and college diploma.

I am sitting here and I re-read your points over about 7-8 times and still cant believe someone would actually believe what you are saying. It has to be a joke right? Where is your oversized smiley face or eye rolly smiley?? I am losing faith that it was actually a joke.

[Diadem]

Nor do I have enough funds (following College and Flight Training) to go on a road trip across a whole continent.

And yet:

Plus that job was overseas in South-East Asia, so I had to fly there and stay there on my own expenses.

How can you afford the latter, but not the former?

...but the system that has been established in Canada just complicates things further. A few individuals that I know personally have all been hired on major airlines just out of school! Some are in Europe, some are in Asia. THIS is the WAY it should be!

A wonderful notion. The reality is that aviation is different in Canada from Europe or Asia. Canada has a lot of space, without the population to warrant major airlines flying to every destination. On the contrary, most flying here is done by small airlines, and a great deal of it is on floats. Very few pilots in Canada ever make it to the majors.

How long did he stay there??? 1 month! How long would I have stayed there if I was hired? I would probably still be working there amid the limited living conditions.

Really? There was a reason he only stayed a month, and it probably wasn't that he got a better offer. Perhaps it had something to do with realizing that the "limited living conditions" are substandard, even for the Third World. I would bet that no matter how motivated you are you wouldn't be any more inclined to stay there after living there for a month, and if you're willing to live in sh*tty conditions just to get some flying hours then you might as well just hang out on the corner in a mini-skirt.
The fact is that there are far more pilots than there are jobs in almost every part of the world. In Canada, that means competing with every other low-timer for every crappy ramp job available and working your way up the ladder until you get where you want to be in your career. In Europe, that means buying a type rating or signing a bond for years and working at minimum wage until it's paid off. Even after all that, a vast number of commercial pilots, perhaps even more than half, never get a flying job of any kind.
From your post, it seems that you're unwilling to go around Canada to find a job because those would require you to start at the bottom and get your hands dirty, but you'll pay to go overseas so that you can get a "real" flying job with a "real" airline. If that's the case, it's not really surprising you haven't been hired yet. Stop complaining, save up some money, buy some work gloves, and hit the road.

[fish4life]

Why do you feel you deserve this "real" flying job?
How much research did you do when you started your flying and college program on job prospects when you finished?
You mentioned pilot shortage...nuff said.
You spend 50K on all your licenses and diploma, what is a $2-3000 on a road trip across the country?

[square]

It sucks to hear that it's not working out very well Laurent, and yes I suppose it's true that some companies are not even hiring for ramp positions. But many are, and I see them getting upgraded regularly and replaced with new and aspiring rampies. So I'm a little reluctant to support your idea of changing our whole industry so you don't have to spend a year on the ramp. Just go get it over with, anywhere.. you could've been flying by now if you'd bit the bullet a long time ago.

[warbirdpilot7]

Why do you feel you deserve this "real" flying job?
How much research did you do when you started your flying and college program on job prospects when you finished?
You mentioned pilot shortage...nuff said.
You spend 50K on all your licenses and diploma, what is a $2-3000 on a road trip across the country?

$2-3000 is a lot of money if you don't have it, because you have spent it all. It would be nice if the college he/she spent all their money at helped their grads with job placements. Either flying or non-flying to get the "foot" in the door.

[LaurentDussolier]

Thank you Warbirdpilot7 and Square for demonstrating a small token of respect towards peers instead of bashing and criticizing without judgment like some. Not everyone has 100 000$ saved up or has rich families that contributed for this type of education. So please people, show respect to others that had to pass through difficult economic sides.

And I do agree that some colleges should at least help graduates to find something in the field. We have invested so much in those organizations, we should at least deserve a small reward! Educational Centers do have a few contacts in the agenda.

For Square, aviation for low timers is difficult as you said. As of now, and I m sure I would not be the only one, I would be ready to accept anything upland. I would not mind either Single-Engine IFR up north or to survive ramp stories.

[jpilot77]

I would not mind either Single-Engine IFR up north or to survive ramp stories

The ramp is your answer. Single engine IFR requires minimum 1000hrs for captain and is only allowed on turbines (only two types: Caravan and PC-12).

[4hrstovegas]

Laurent:
If you reread your post from a stanger's perspective, you might see the sense of entitlement we all see. I'd be willing to bet that your cover letters reflect that, even if you don't know it. I'm not a pyschiatrist, but your self-pity and anger are easy to read. And if we can read it, so can the companies you've applied to. For example:

We have invested so much in those organizations, we should at least deserve a small reward!

You didn't invest in them, you invested in yourself. Your school doesn't owe you a reward, they gave you the education you asked for! Did you think you were buying a job?

Not everyone has 100 000$ saved up or has rich families that contributed for this type of education. So please people, show respect to others that had to pass through difficult economic sides.

MOST people here don't have that kind of cash, but for the Europeans that you mentioned who get airline jobs with 250 hours. Your tone suggests that we got where we are through privelege; your resentment is not only evident, it's misplaced. If you went to an approved College, your training was probably subsidized to some degree... and therefore much cheaper than most. I'll bet that most people here offering you advice (which you call bashing) have all spent as much as you did on your education, if not more. And I hate to tell you... their "difficult economic" times sure didn't end with their first job!

Plus that job was overseas in South-East Asia, so I had to fly there and stay there on my own expenses.

This goes to show that you're not broke, you're just not smart with money. The amount you spent to fly to Asia could have been spent roadtripping to a few dozen operations.

While you're too inexperienced to know it, this past year has been one of the best in a LONG TIME for hiring. If you think THIS is bad, just keep procrastinating behind a computer a little longer. If you can't hear the music playing, you're in for a rough ride.

Soooo, final piece of advice to move forward? To ANYBODY who is introspective and honest enough to admit that their resentment may have gotten their better side (and this has happened to ALL OF US at one point), get somebody else to write/edit your cover letter. It may give your resume a fresh, more objective starting place.

[jpilot77]

I myself just graduated from with an approved College degree in aviation including the full CPL with IR\ME.

I have been looking for a job for 2 years, and I just had 1 job interview within 300 sent resumes.

So which one is it? You say you've been looking for a job for two years but you just finished your CPL MEIFR.

[quote

Its true! I have to agree with SuperChargedRS on this one! What types of jobs are you looking at?? Captain of a Space Ship??? Seriously!

Having just completed all required minimal qualifications to be hired as an aircrew I surf on the web every day and every hour in hoping something cut for my qualifications comes up. All I see is: 1000 hours here, 1000 hours there...etc, etc etc etc etc etc etc! If I was in your boots....BOY would I send resumes everywhere!!!!

Guy.....most of the medevac and charter companies look for people with 1000± hours! Where are you? On another planet? Just to give you some ideas: Wasaya, Bearskin, Air Bravo etc etc etc




][/quote]

You won't make any friends with that attitude LaurentDussolier.