Here's a radical thought...

[Rockie]

...for CR and the rest of geniuses running Air Canada.

VALUE your employees like you said you would instead of treating them like the enemy and see what happens.

Forget LCC.
Forget beating down wages.
Forget eliminating the pension.
Forget stealing away labour rights
Forget SkyRegional.
Forget spending hundreds of millions trying to kill your competitors.

Try outcompeting them with your product for once which, if you've cast your gaze westward to Calgary at all in the last ten years is much easier with employees on your side.

Really... Don't they teach you anything about leadership at business school?

[cdnpilot77]

...for CR and the rest of geniuses running Air Canada.

VALUE your employees like you said you would instead of treating them like the enemy and see what happens.

Forget LCC.
Forget beating down wages.
Forget eliminating the pension.
Forget stealing away labour rights
Forget SkyRegional.
Forget spending hundreds of millions trying to kill your competitors.

Try outcompeting them with your product for once which, if you've cast your gaze westward to Calgary at all in the last ten years is much easier with employees on your side.

Really... Don't they teach you anything about leadership at business school?

No, they teach you about numbers! Pensions cost a lot of money, labour rights cost money, wages cost money, competitors cost money, sub-contracting does not cost near as much money... LCC, well I think its been tried and cost lots of money

[yycflyguy]

Try outcompeting them with your product for once which, if you've cast your gaze westward to Calgary at all in the last ten years is much easier with employees on your side.

This would require an entire new BoD and executive management structure that puts sustainability and competition in the forefront, instead of the Robert Milton style of "unlocking shareholder value", distributing $2 billion to shareholders and exorbitant executive compensation. I was optimistic when Calin Rovenesque took 1 million shares when they were trading at around 97 cents. It showed that if the company became competitive and its value increased, so would his shares and his deserved "bonus". Instead we see "retainer" bonuses as the stock has been a total dog.

We are flying airplanes that are 87% full on high yield routes and yet there is nothing to give the employee groups? If 5 out of 5 different union groups cannot bargain a collective agreement with its employer, who is the problem?

We are set up to pump the money out the back door. Does AC generate a phenomenal amount of revenue? You betcha, it just goes out in disbursements, income trusts, executive bonuses and subsidiaries.

AC HAS a great product, great service and great routes. The latest filing to the CIRB against CUPE by AC only perpetuates the acrimonious labour relationship we have always endured. Sad really.

[North Shore]

Good post, Rockie! It's amazing how fast managers forget those key points.

YYC said: We are flying airplanes that are 87% full on high yield routes and yet there is nothing to give the employee groups?
Is it conceivable that that revenue is going to subsidise the routes that are 50% full on low yields that the company has to fly to maintain a service?

[yycflyguy]

Good post, Rockie! It's amazing how fast managers forget those key points.

YYC said: We are flying airplanes that are 87% full on high yield routes and yet there is nothing to give the employee groups?
Is it conceivable that that revenue is going to subsidise the routes that are 50% full on low yields that the company has to fly to maintain a service?

That 87% load factor is system wide. Not just on select flights so the low load factor flights are absorbed in that number. Most flights I do are full full full.

It has been years since AC management has been driven by growth and sustainability of the airline. The last two CEO's have only been hatchet men with business plans directed at extracting the value for personal gain at the expense of the employees and the airline.

[Mig29]

...for CR and the rest of geniuses running Air Canada.

VALUE your employees like you said you would instead of treating them like the enemy and see what happens.

Forget LCC.
Forget beating down wages.
Forget eliminating the pension.
Forget stealing away labour rights
Forget SkyRegional.
Forget spending hundreds of millions trying to kill your competitors.

Try outcompeting them with your product for once which, if you've cast your gaze westward to Calgary at all in the last ten years is much easier with employees on your side.

Really... Don't they teach you anything about leadership at business school?

Good point Rockie, but I think these guys you are talking about have skipped classes where they teach common sense, ethics, loyalty, good judgment and how not to be greedy. Sadly more and more people are like these guys and all they care is about money and 'what's in it for me'. But like everything else in society, nothing lasts forever...

now if we can just agree on the flypast60 thing

[whiteguy]

Good post, Rockie! It's amazing how fast managers forget those key points.

YYC said: We are flying airplanes that are 87% full on high yield routes and yet there is nothing to give the employee groups?
Is it conceivable that that revenue is going to subsidise the routes that are 50% full on low yields that the company has to fly to maintain a service?

There are no routes that AC has to fly to maintain service.

[CanadianEh]

What AC's management is doing is textbook for what NOT to do when it comes to motivating employees and creating a successful employee relations. Really unfortunate.

[TheSuit]

Try outcompeting them with your product for once which, if you've cast your gaze westward to Calgary at all in the last ten years is much easier with employees on your side.

CR looks west and sees an airline with a cost base 30% lower than his own.

Try outcompeting them with your product for once

Airline tickets are commodities. Airlines compete on price and schedule. Air Canada already has a superior product; customers won't pay for it.

Look, RM definitely screwed the airline by selling off all the goodies. I have nothing but disdain for financial engineering crooks. But like many other groups which have been marginalized in the past, AC labor simply can't find a way to move forward with an actual plan to return the airline to profitability. Bitterness and distrust completely trumps any rational thinking. AC doesn't have anymore business units to subsidize the mainline operation, so figure out how to make the business you have left profitable. Stop being emotional and trying to stick it to the man and just fix the airlines problems. The dysfunctional environment at AC is less than pathetic and labor fuels the fire just as vigorously as management. You all keep waiting for management to come grovelling.

VALUE your employees like you said you would instead of treating them like the enemy and see what happens.

Airline pilots love this argument (More money - less work. Who wouldn't?), but don't ever provide any mechanics to demonstrate how this works. If you showed management a sound business case it would be approved tomorrow. Show the direct relationship on productivity; Reduced bookoffs? More overtime takeup? Fewer fatigue call-ins? Maybe you'd like to eliminate your pension like your WestJet heros. Or maybe you'd like to operate on no pilot reserve like them, or operate a port system like them, or eliminate the training cascade when a triple-7 captain leaves, or give all pilots opportunity to share some desirable pairings. Is that going to be in the plan?

[Rockie]

Airline pilots love this argument (More money - less work. Who wouldn't?),

That's not at all what I said. Suppose you go back and read it again in context.

If you showed management a sound business case it would be approved tomorrow.

Two things immediately wrong with this statement. First, it is not up to the employees to develop a business plan. Management doesn't want us to interfere with their business development and would not welcome any business case we gave them. They develop a business plan - we are the employees that implement it. End of discussion. Your name implies you should know that.

Second, having employees pulling the same direction on the rope IS good business. Westjet's cost structure will always be different than Air Canada's because in case you hadn't noticed they fly one jet within North America and we fly five all over the world. They also started their business lean and have for the most part been able to keep it that way. And if you ask anybody in their head office what their biggest advantage is they would say the employees. CR might say that too, but in Westjet's case they actually mean it. Westjet goes WAY out of their way to ensure their employees are happy, enabled to do their jobs without micromanaging as if they were incompetent, and know that they are the real reason behind Westjet's success.

How's Air Canada's employee relations working out for them?

Reduced bookoffs? More overtime takeup? Fewer fatigue call-ins? Maybe you'd like to eliminate your pension like your WestJet heros. Or maybe you'd like to operate on no pilot reserve like them, or operate a port system like them, or eliminate the training cascade when a triple-7 captain leaves, or give all pilots opportunity to share some desirable pairings. Is that going to be in the plan?

There are lots of things that can be done. None of it will be though until Air Canada begins taking care of their employees.

[TheSuit]

That's not at all what I said. Suppose you go back and read it again in context.

You're right you didn't say it. But I'm going to assume ACPA won't be negotiating a cost-neutral agreement this round.

They develop a business plan - we are the employees that implement it

You sound confused. You want WestJets model of inclusion but you don't want to be involved? I didn't suggest doing market analytics for new international traffic; I suggested showing management how they can save money by improving relations with your group instead of just demanding and threatening. You claim that it's so obvious and simple but can't even articulate a clear explanation? Doesn't ACPA have any resources to figure these things out? Where do all those union dues go?

You're bitter, and you complain about a system you have no intention of changing. You sound like the battered housewife.

[Rockie]

You sound confused. You want WestJets model of inclusion but you don't want to be involved? I didn't suggest doing market analytics for new international traffic; I suggested showing management how they can save money by improving relations with your group instead of just demanding and threatening. You claim that it's so obvious and simple but can't even articulate a clear explanation? Doesn't ACPA have any resources to figure these things out? Where do all those union dues go?

You're bitter, and you complain about a system you have no intention of changing. You sound like the battered housewife.

In recent past ACPA went out of their way to foster a "new" cooperative relationship with Air Canada that included pursuing and nurturing new business opportunities. Air Canada's response to that desire for a new relationship is why things are so bleak today.

Bitter? No.

Just a lot more aware and hence realistic about the nature of this management because I live it. You don't. So please don't presume to lecture me on our relationship with Air Canada.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The US provides an interesting case study

Southwest has 25 years of profitability in good times and bad. It also pays the highest narrowbody wages of any US mainline. Why? because it has had a long term stable management group with a high level of airline operational experience. All the basket case airlines like United and US Airways have had a revolving door of bean counters running the business into the ground

Sad to say the comparison between Westjet with a solid track record of efficient solid management and Air Canada which has been looted by management that was only focused on the short term gains available with selling off anything of value and earning profits from exotic financial moves, over the business of actually transporting happy paying customers.......doesn't seem to bode well for the future

[Mig29]

Sad to say the comparison between Westjet with a solid track record of efficient solid management and Air Canada which has been looted by management that was only focused on the short term gains available with selling off anything of value and earning profits from exotic financial moves, over the business of actually transporting happy paying customers.......doesn't seem to bode well for the future

Can't say that I disagree with you there. AC had 3 CEOs in one decade, and they all filter through the ranks one after another. Blame the employees all you want, but until the upper management structure radically changes, AC is in the red books for a long haul

[sarg]

Try outcompeting them with your product for once which, if you've cast your gaze westward to Calgary at all in the last ten years is much easier with employees on your side.

This would require an entire new BoD and executive management structure that puts sustainability and competition in the forefront, instead of the Robert Milton style of "unlocking shareholder value", distributing $2 billion to shareholders and exorbitant executive compensation. I was optimistic when Calin Rovenesque took 1 million shares when they were trading at around 97 cents. It showed that if the company became competitive and its value increased, so would his shares and his deserved "bonus". Instead we see "retainer" bonuses as the stock has been a total dog.

We are flying airplanes that are 87% full on high yield routes and yet there is nothing to give the employee groups? If 5 out of 5 different union groups cannot bargain a collective agreement with its employer, who is the problem?

We are set up to pump the money out the back door. Does AC generate a phenomenal amount of revenue? You betcha, it just goes out in disbursements, income trusts, executive bonuses and subsidiaries.

AC HAS a great product, great service and great routes. The latest filing to the CIRB against CUPE by AC only perpetuates the acrimonious labour relationship we have always endured. Sad really.

Just did a quick glance at the monthly load factor reports and only saw 1 month, August, that had a LF of 87%. Most were at 83% with 1, Feb I think, at 75%. Last years LF was 81% according to investor info, it takes more than 1 month to have something to share.

[yycflyguy]

You're right it was an abysmal 82.8% load factor in September. Not the 87% from August. There were also big capacity increases for last month that would reflect a lower load factor but greater revenues.

Air Canada system traffic (RPMs) increased 3.8% on a system-wide (ASMs) capacity increase of 3.0%. Domestic traffic (RPMs) increased 2.2% on a 1.1% capacity (ASMs) increase.

"This third consecutive month of record load factor results underlines Air Canada's focus on disciplined and efficient capacity deployment," Air Canada Chief Executive Calin Rovinescu said.

[truedude]

You're right you didn't say it. But I'm going to assume ACPA won't be negotiating a cost-neutral agreement this round.

How cost-neutral as managements compensation been since 2000? Ideas like that require leadership from the top. It IS because of managements continued greed to extract every ounce of wealth for themselves--through salary, bonus's, or pensions--that has the other groups so angry. Perhaps when the guys at the top are prepared to forgo any further bonuses or raises until giving other groups a raise, and then matching their total compensation only by an equal increment, you might see a more responsive group.

But I suspect I will be seeing pigs fly before that happens.

[sarg]

You're right it was an abysmal 82.8% load factor in September. Not the 87% from August. There were also big capacity increases for last month that would reflect a lower load factor but greater revenues.

Air Canada system traffic (RPMs) increased 3.8% on a system-wide (ASMs) capacity increase of 3.0%. Domestic traffic (RPMs) increased 2.2% on a 1.1% capacity (ASMs) increase.

"This third consecutive month of record load factor results underlines Air Canada's focus on disciplined and efficient capacity deployment," Air Canada Chief Executive Calin Rovinescu said.

2007 429 million profit for the year
2008 1.025 billion loss for the year
2009 24 million loss for the year
2010 107 million profit for the year

513 million loss over four years I'm having a hard time finding what their supposed to be sharing with the employees?

[Rockie]

I'm having a hard time finding the justification for multi-million dollar bonuses and gold plated fully indexed pensions.

Oh...right. That's money they took from us and we save them by running around with no gas.

[rudder]

ACPA has been getting an absolutely crystal clear view of the bargaining landscape via the CAW and CUPE debacles. Therefore, there should be no excuse for not understanding exactly the range of possible outcomes.

So all that is really left within ACPA's control is whether to think inside the box or outside the box. However, either way the box is still the same size so choose wisely

[bmc]

Why is load factor being touted as a measure of success? It's easy to fill airplanes. Just price it right and you'll fill them up.

Load factor means dick unless you know what your yield is, per revenue per mile (or kilometer), and you know what your fully allocated seat costs are, as expressed ASM (available seat cost per mile).

Waving load factor numbers around is as meaningful as suggesting the airline is profitable because the airplanes have fresh paint.

Back in the good old days of Canadian, I fondly remember a time when the break even load factor on the B767 was 110%.

To proudly proclaim an 87% load factor just means you have fairly full airplanes. No reference to cost or revenue. I'd rather fly with a 40% load factor knowing my break even was 18%, than flying at 87% and not knowing what my breakeven was.

Take some time to learn airline economics. There's more to it than whining about fat cat executives draining the till. That argument is old, stale and as profound as suggesting airline pilots make way too much money.

[MackTheKnife]

ACPA has been getting an absolutely crystal clear view of the bargaining landscape via the CAW and CUPE debacles. Therefore, there should be no excuse for not understanding exactly the range of possible outcomes.

So all that is really left within ACPA's control is whether to think inside the box or outside the box. However, either way the box is still the same size so choose wisely

The flip side is by knowing the outcome in advance, which is that no matter what they do it is a lose/lose scenario, IMO they should overwhelmingly reject TA 2 and force the Rat's hand. The agreement they have forced down their throats by the government will be in the same vein that AC will try and force upon them.

Up to now every one has caved. At some point in time someone has to see if they are holding a Royal Flush or whether its all a big bluff. The upside of it will be one true undeniable fact for the history books of how ruthless this government was towards organized labour.

It might also help settle once and for all the Essential Service argument.


http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.as ... =text#sec4.

14.1 What is an essential service Subsection 4(1) of the PSLRA defines an "essential service" as "a service, facility or activity of the Government of Canada that is or will be, at any time, necessary for the safety or security of the public or a segment of the public". Services should be identified as essential where there are reasonable grounds for accepting the probability, or even the possibility, that human life or public safety would suffer if a work stoppage interrupted the duties of these employees. It should be noted that positions where occupants are to be available during their off-duty hours to report to work without delay to perform the essential services are also included.

Some examples of government programs that may be considered essential include, but are not exclusively:

■border safety/security
■correctional services
■food inspection
■health care
■accident safety investigations
■income and social security
■marine safety
■national security
■law enforcement
■search and rescue

I don't see where AC fits into any of the above classifications.

Then again ACPA has never been much at thinking outside the box, so it will probably cave at the first opportunity vowing to "Live to fight another day". What they fail to realize that day came and went in 2003. Everything has been and will continue to be downhill for the foreseeable future until someone makes a stand regarding the "Big Picture".

MTK

[Solaris]

[Stu Pidasso]

CR looks west and sees an airline with a cost base 30% lower than his own.

TA1 to the F/A's proved CR is not the least bit interested in being competitive.

AC F/A's are (already) grossly overpaid compared to WJ and the Airline offered them an increase and it wasn't good enough.

For the most part (there are exceptions) AC's ramp service is a disaster of useless, overpaid, underskilled employees with bad attitudes.

The CAW (ticket agents) all get raises.

Lets compare these three groups to Westjet?

We will be very happy to compare the Pilots (and the AME's) pay between the two Airlines!

[aroundthewing]

AC F/A's are (already) grossly overpaid compared to WJ and the Airline offered them an increase and it wasn't good enough.

For the most part (there are exceptions) AC's ramp service is a disaster of useless, overpaid, underskilled employees with bad attitudes.

The CAW (ticket agents) all get raises.

Lets compare these three groups to Westjet?

We will be very happy to compare the Pilots (and the AME's) pay between the two Airlines!

So Stu, you have researched this information or is it just what your co-workers tell you? And who is "we" ?
You may not know that AC FAs are not "grossly" overpaid as compared with their WJ counterparts. Yes they may make more, but what substantiates "grossly overpaid"?
AC's Ramp Service? That's a good one. Starting salary is now less than it's counterparts at TAC, Servisair, Worldwide, etc. $10.80/hr. Most new hires quit within the first 3-6 months due to crappy P/T shifts and low pay. No wonder they're p*ssed! They then move over to CARA food service or the Refuellers or CATSA where they make considerably more money.
Customer Service Agents...same deal. Only the employees with 9-10 years make max wage!
I've come across bad attitudes from all angles but I don't stereotype one group because of a few rotten apples. Are you a rotten apple Stu??

Funny....all the press about AC and having it's employee's salaries smeared across every forum, news website and news paper, but never ever do you see WJ's employee remuneration as a comparison. Odd isn't it!