Job advice for 1000hr+ flight instructor

[wirez]

Hey guys,
I've been trying to look for an FO job for about a year now but haven't had any luck. I've got 1200hrs from instructing, unfortunately not much in terms of multi hours. I've been on road trips, and haven't had any good leads. The few meetings I did have, I was told that basically they didn't consider instructing time to be valuable -- Which I fully understand.

So now my question is, given that I'm having trouble breaking out of instructing, would it be worthwhile for me to consider ramp jobs? Others have told me that for me its not worth it given that I already have enough hours for a right seat job somewhere; since I haven't found those jobs though, I'm willing to get in line somewhere else working the ramp while I wait. I've worked the ramp before elsewhere, so I definitely have experience there.

Thanks for any advice you guys are able to offer,

[Switchfoot]

I wouldn't discount your flight instructor experience. Many before you have gone the instructing route and jumped into a twin-turbine or jet afterwards (myself included) and have gone on to build a solid career. Many of them are now at the airlines. Just because some employers don't value the instructing time as much, doesn't mean they all look down upon it. My suggestion is to broaden your search a bit more. Find some companies that have hired instructors in the past and give them a call. There is hiring all over the industry from the top down which means that with your time you could likely find something if you are persistant enough. Stay away from the ramp where you may get stuck for a couple of years. Just my two cents ... and good luck!


Switchfoot.

[767]

So now my question is, given that I'm having trouble breaking out of instructing, would it be worthwhile for me to consider ramp jobs?

No. Never do it. Your a pilot, not a rampie. I wish everyone could refuse ramp work that promises a flying job thereafter. But who am I to tell people what they can and can't do? Just keep instructing until something comes along. It's what I would do, but feel free to work ramp if you chose to.

[SuperchargedRS]

WTF???

You have 1k hrs and cant find a job outside of instructing???

Where are you looking? Do you have some crazy requirements you are looking for in a job? Does your personality suck?

I dont get it??

[LaurentDussolier]

Its true! I have to agree with SuperChargedRS on this one! What types of jobs are you looking at?? Captain of a Space Ship??? Seriously!

Having just completed all required minimal qualifications to be hired as an aircrew I surf on the web every day and every hour in hoping something cut for my qualifications comes up. All I see is: 1000 hours here, 1000 hours there...etc, etc etc etc etc etc etc! If I was in your boots....BOY would I send resumes everywhere!!!!

Guy.....most of the medevac and charter companies look for people with 1000± hours! Where are you? On another planet? Just to give you some ideas: Wasaya, Bearskin, Air Bravo etc etc etc

[KK7]

Looking for a job in aviation is a skill in itself, and is often the case in many other industries as well. Like the others have pointed out in such a obnoxious way, there are a lot of jobs available out there for people of your qualifications, but the trick is how do you get them. Aviation is really about who you know and you have to be making friends and connections constantly. Doing a road trip as you said you have done is a good start, but you have to work on maintaining the connections you already did. If you see a job ad do your best to get out and shake some hands, then follow it up with an email later to remind them of who you are. You want to make it so that when an employer is thinking of who they have to hire to fill a position, you're the first face that comes to mind.

Simply sending out resumes will not get you anywhere no matter how good the industry is moving. You need a cover letter that is written specifically for that company, you need to know people who already work there, and you need to talk your potential employer either on the phone or in person. Try to spark up a discussion with him/her outside of just sending them a resume. Ask some intelligent questions about the potential job and the company, but be careful not to ask questions that you should already know the answer to (i.e. if it's stated in the job ad already).

It's a tough road at the start for most, keep at it and you'll get there eventually. Good luck!

[wirez]

Hey guys, thanks for the "advice", I've done all those things mentioned, and I continue to do them. And I am not applying to be captain of a spaceship. There may be jobs out there, but as we all know often they only have a few positions available, and the applicants exceeds the number of positions.

Was just asking for additional suggestions on whether ramp jobs would be a worthwhile move or not. We all know there are many paths towards the same goal.

Anyways, I don't need to be made fun of for asking a question.

Adios.

[AllClutch]

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[wirez]

Hang in there buddy,
I'm in pretty well the same boat.
1700 hours/ 200 multi and not too much out there unless you know someone.
Ever though of instructing at perimeter? All multi-pic and goes on to a metro.
Or ramp at northern air. My instructing buddies did 3 months on the ramp before going onto the king air, that's barely enough time to unpack.

Also you can look forward to the rude awakening the other posters get when they figure out that just because the minimums say 1000 hours that doesn't mean the flood gates open when you hit it and head hunters will knock down your door.

Thanks AllClutch,

I have thought about Northern Air, I may in fact give ramping there a try.

[wirez]

LaurentDussolier,

I just read some of your other posts, from what I can deduce, your on a difficult job search of your own. Someone like yourself really has no place to be mocking my own predicament.

Good luck on your job hunt sir.

[Flips]

Hi, From what I've seen at the school I taught at, is that all the instructors that wanted to move on and break out of instructing eventually did. Sometimes it took a while, especially a couple of years ago but eventually they did find something. Some moved on with only 700 hours and others with over 1600 but they all eventually did. I would look at companies that have hired other instructors you have worked with in the past. Many times that internal reference gets you a foot in the door. Look at your contacts, because as we all have seen, many times it's who you know. Even if a person isn't high up in the company, they can still walk your resume in, which can put it apart from some of the others. Also, I've seen one company hire many instructors out of a particular school because they have had pretty good success with instructors coming from that school. That is one particular case and of course is not applicable everywhere, but if you can look at the path other instructors from your school took, it may provide some insight on where to focus.

Be persistent with it and follow up on leads when you get them. Good luck with your search.

[Northern Flyer]

Timing is key. I used to do hiring for a smaller charter medevac company. When a pilot left I usually had only a couple of weeks notice. I would go through current resume's and pick about five and make some calls. If I was hiring for a King Air FO or a chieftain captain I would be looking for at least 1000 hrs. If you don't have much multi experience I would not consider you for a single pilot chieftain position, but I would definitely consider you for an FO spot. Point is, things happen fast in this industry at the entry level. Keep your name out there, talk to students you may have kept in contact with who are working and other instructors who have moved on. Try and capitalize on any inside info you can get your hands on.

One other poster suggested instructing for Perimeter out of Winnipeg. That is a very good idea. I have met allot of guys over the years who were successful at this. I understand they have you do multi instruction in their Travelair's for a period of time, then put you in a ground school for the metro.

Good luck in your search, I'm sure every thing will work out eventually.

[takamasa]

sometimes it's a quite frustrating that instructing experience doesn't seem as valuable as we are hoping.

Companies would rather hire people for ramp position and end up putting them to right seat. Even though instructing for PPL/CPL only give you single engine experience however it does involve a lot of learning other than the time u logged. Communication skill, situation awareness, decision making are some of assets that you actually learned from being an instructor.

[KK7]

I think it depends on the operator, I know quite a few companies that prefer the qualities you get from an ex-flight instructor as opposed to someone with no other flying experience. As a generalization, instructors are more familiar with the regulations, are already somewhat familiar with flying with another pilot next to them, and already have experience teaching for when they become a training captain or teach a ground school in the company. Non-instructors may also have these qualities too, however candidates with instructing experience already have that experience behind them.

Some companies prefer their pilots to start on the ramp, there are companies that like to hire instructors, and the smart companies takes their new hires from a mixed bag because the combo of the two make for a great team.

[tdp19]

Well theres two ways you can look at it, i instructed for 1 year then got a job offer for a multi turboprop job at 700 hours which was/is great. BUT now i wish i would have instructed for another 6 months or year becUse now i am struggling to get atpl(half time for cojo). Be happy you can get your atpl signed off in a few hundred hours. Stick with it, something will happen when you least expect it.

[pizza__73]

Wirez, do what you gotta do man. If hitting a ramp for a couple months has to happen, while it would suck with your time, you can either face your personal reality or sit on a computer like some of these DBs giving everybody advice from behind a computer. It's easy for people with jobs, or (even better), people with no job like Dussolier to give advice. It's your life, do you what you need to do.

And for Laurent, what planet are YOU on?? You have no business pointing your 200 hr jobless pinky at other people who are doing more than sending out resumes and wasting time on trips to SE Asia. You're in no position to insult other people while mommy pays for your internet.

[rocco1]

You are missing one requirement: knowing someone. It is almost absurd but it is true. It is such a small industry that almost everybody knows someone inside a company. So try to find some connection and go for it. I was an instructor and if someone says to you that it is worthless time tell him to f. off. his pilots went through an instructor to be where they are now. good luck

[Northern Flyer]

You are missing one requirement: knowing someone. It is almost absurd but it is true. It is such a small industry that almost everybody knows someone inside a company. So try to find some connection and go for it. I was an instructor and if someone says to you that it is worthless time tell him to f. off. his pilots went through an instructor to be where they are now. good luck

While all time is valuable, some may be considered more valuable than others. For example if I had two pilots applying for an entry level position; pilot #1 has 750 hours instructing, and pilot #2 has a season of floats under his or her belt, I am going with pilot #2 every time. While both have similar total times, pilot #2 has real commercial experience manipulating the controls of an aircraft.

I agree with you rocco1 that knowing someone is key to getting your foot in the door.

[delay256]

I'm not surprised that you haven't found anything solid yet. I am in a similar situation, I have about 1200 hours (Mostly Instructing time) and have not got any real leads. My advice would be to keep instructing until you can get your ATPL signed off and then things should start to open up.

[flyincanuck]

The few meetings I did have, I was told that basically they didn't consider instructing time to be valuable -- Which I fully understand.

Can you explain to me how instructing experience is not valuable? If you are working for an FTU, are you not working for a "commercial operator"? Does this "commercial operator" have an Ops Manual? MCM? Person responsible for maintenance? Policies and procedures? By instructing, are you not only ensuring the safe operation of an aircraft, but simultaneously enabling someone to learn those same skills which you exemplify?

[flyincanuck]

For example if I had two pilots applying for an entry level position; pilot #1 has 750 hours instructing, and pilot #2 has a season of floats under his or her belt, I am going with pilot #2 every time. While both have similar total times, pilot #2 has real commercial experience manipulating the controls of an aircraft.

Ouf. Can't say I agree with that. Though pilot # 2 may have more relative experience, it doesn't automatically qualify him as the best pilot for the given job. It really comes down to the person. Case in point: it's the only way "rampies" make it to the right seat of an appreciable airplane (metro, KA, twotter, etc) with 200 hours and usually an expired group 1. All based on personality and work ethic.

If Pilot #2 exhibits better traits, in addition to his experience - absolutely. He's the best guy for the gig.

[Big Pistons Forever]

While all time is valuable, some may be considered more valuable than others. For example if I had two pilots applying for an entry level position; pilot #1 has 750 hours instructing, and pilot #2 has a season of floats under his or her belt, I am going with pilot #2 every time.

Flying skills are teachable, personality and work ethic are not. If pilot no 2 is a jerk, he may well be a more qualified pilot than No 1, but he is still a jerk. I think at the more entry level jobs your attitude, maturity, and work ethic will have more impact than your hours. But the biggest factor in getting hired will be personal contacts. Most guy/gals get their start with an internal recommend, tip from someone already working at the operator insider, or a lead from someone else in the business.

[burninggoats]

It can be a real challenge to prove you aren't a tool when all the companies say "no office visits, no phone calls, e-mails only"

[pizza__73]

It can be a real challenge to prove you aren't a tool when all the companies say "no office visits, no phone calls, e-mails only"

How about including something in the cover letter like, "I consider myself a hard worker, safety-driven, and pride myself in not being a tool."

[loadshed]

I couldn't find a M-Eng gig anywhere in the country after 1500 hrs Total and almost 3 years instructing in a 172 with a bare-ass ATPL and MIFR back in 2002/2003 when the industry was at a stand-still. I fired out lots of resumes and followed up with calls, but no bites.... So, I loaded up the car and drove to pound on some doors until someone would hire me.
I Ended up tossing bags and boxes on a ramp and a warehouse for almost a year up north with a busy company and a varied fleet. From there I went directly into some of their large turbine equipment.
I'd say it was (relatively) short term pain for long term gain. I'd expect the ramp wait to be much shorter these days for a seat if you have 1000 hrs. The airlines are hiring so that creates the vacuum effect.
Good luck with your decision. I'd say get out there and go for it - It worked for me.
It's not ideal, but you may end up never getting a call with straight instructing time if you don't go and show your face, and show you're willing to do a bit of grunt work to get a seat.
If you go the ramp route...leave the ego at the door
Cheers.