OPEN STAR RNAV & DTW Question

[PoE]

Hello to all,

I was wondering if any of you could clear this up for me. On an open star rnav, if you pass the DTW and the controller doesn't say anything, logically you have to maintain the heading indicated by the dots following the DTW. However, what happens with the OPEN STAR RNAV. Does it remain open until the ATC vectors you towards the FACF or is it automatically closed and at that point you have to contact ATC for further vectors, or go a certain distance before initiating your turn towards the FACF.

Thank you in advance.

[loopa]

Don't quote me on this but I believe DTW terminates the star and leaves you with a heading and a level off altitude to proceed with, unless it is a closed STAR which will lead to the associated instrument approach. DTW stands for Downwind Termination Waypoint, which in my head is only spelling out a synonym for the termination of an OPEN RNAV STAR. There's an AIM reference to this and if I recall correctly, if you haven't been issued an IFR Approach Clearance prior to DTW, you continue with the heading with anticipation to expect radar vectors, if you have been assigned an approach clearance prior to DTW, you fly dct FACF and conduct the approach as per the approach plate.

Perhaps somebody could shed a better light on this, but I think that's the way it's dealt with.

Bed Time

[200hr Wonder]

It will say...

If RNAV STAR includes a DTW, the following procedures apply.
If approach clearance is NOT received prior to DTW
-Fly the depicted heading .... ->
-Expect Radar Vectors to Final
If approach clearance is RECEIVED prior to DTW
-Fly RNAV STAR via DTW, then
-Via FACF
-Fly the STRAIGHT-IN approach

So all open RNAV STARs have a DTW by definition:
Downwind Termination Waypoint (DTW)
The waypoint located downwind to the landing runway abeam
the final approach course fix (FACF) where an open RNAV
STAR terminates.

So they expect you to fly the heading as depicted until they get back to you. In practice I don't think I have ever hit the DTW without a vector or some other instruction. If it is slow they may ask if you want to "Close The Approach" so fly to the DTW, then FACF and then the approach but that is usually just the controller being lazy because that is like a 15 mile final and if the weather is crap or it is busy you don't close approaches. The one thing to note is if you don't hear anything at the DTW you are now 15 miles past the airport on a downwind leg usually. I would be calling ATC looking for an instructing and considering COM failure at that point. Just never happens.

[PoE]

Ok, I read your inputs and I know pretty much all what you said. To clarify my question, I want to know what happens with the OPEN STAR RNAV once it reaches the DTW and you have to remain on the heading until your receive further vectors. IS IT AUTOMATICALLY closed and you're therefore on a heading and no longer under the OPEN STAR RNAV or does the STAR RNAV remain OPEN AND ACTIVE eventhough you're past the DTW, and that is until the ATC clears you to the FACF?

It will say...

If RNAV STAR includes a DTW, the following procedures apply.
If approach clearance is NOT received prior to DTW
-Fly the depicted heading .... ->
-Expect Radar Vectors to Final
If approach clearance is RECEIVED prior to DTW
-Fly RNAV STAR via DTW, then
-Via FACF
-Fly the STRAIGHT-IN approach

So all open RNAV STARs have a DTW by definition:
Downwind Termination Waypoint (DTW)
The waypoint located downwind to the landing runway abeam
the final approach course fix (FACF) where an open RNAV
STAR terminates.

So they expect you to fly the heading as depicted until they get back to you. In practice I don't think I have ever hit the DTW without a vector or some other instruction. If it is slow they may ask if you want to "Close The Approach" so fly to the DTW, then FACF and then the approach but that is usually just the controller being lazy because that is like a 15 mile final and if the weather is crap or it is busy you don't close approaches. The one thing to note is if you don't hear anything at the DTW you are now 15 miles past the airport on a downwind leg usually. I would be calling ATC looking for an instructing and considering COM failure at that point. Just never happens.

So all open RNAV STARs have a DTW by definition:
Downwind Termination Waypoint (DTW)
The waypoint located downwind to the landing runway abeam
the final approach course fix (FACF) where an open RNAV
STAR terminates.

This is exactly what's puzzling me. If I understand this correctly, the DTW is the point where the OPEN STAR RNAV terminates, and that no matter if you do get vectors or not, the OPEN STAR RNAV closes once past the DTW and thereafter you EXPECT vectors while maintining a heading, but THE OPEN STAR RNAV is no longer active, right?

[TopperHarley]

I dont really understand what you're trying to ask, but if ATC specifically tells you to "close" the approach, you just link the first approach fix below the DTW on the FMS, and the autopilot will automatically sequence from the DTW to the IAF. If they haven't given you a clearance to close it, once you fly over the DTW, you are now just flying a heading that is specified on the plate. The STAR is terminated, but you must continue on your last assigned heading/altitude/speed. On the FMS, it will revert to "manual" or have a discontinuity between the DTW and the IAF. The autopilot will continue flying the heading in the database until you order it to do something else. You have the sequence the approach in the FMS to have your TO/FROM waypoints set up properly for an intercept, once ATC starts giving you vectors.

[Bede]

Are you trying to ask what happens on your GPS or FMC when you hit the DTW?

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

It will say...

If RNAV STAR includes a DTW, the following procedures apply.
If approach clearance is NOT received prior to DTW
-Fly the depicted heading .... ->
-Expect Radar Vectors to Final
If approach clearance is RECEIVED prior to DTW
-Fly RNAV STAR via DTW, then
-Via FACF
-Fly the STRAIGHT-IN approach

So all open RNAV STARs have a DTW by definition:
Downwind Termination Waypoint (DTW)
The waypoint located downwind to the landing runway abeam
the final approach course fix (FACF) where an open RNAV
STAR terminates.

So they expect you to fly the heading as depicted until they get back to you. In practice I don't think I have ever hit the DTW without a vector or some other instruction. If it is slow they may ask if you want to "Close The Approach" so fly to the DTW, then FACF and then the approach but that is usually just the controller being lazy because that is like a 15 mile final and if the weather is crap or it is busy you don't close approaches. The one thing to note is if you don't hear anything at the DTW you are now 15 miles past the airport on a downwind leg usually. I would be calling ATC looking for an instructing and considering COM failure at that point. Just never happens.

Well the first part you said is correct (right off the plate).

Your other comments I would have to dispute. Yes we often will take aircraft off the RNAV STAR and intercept final closer that the FACF. This is for a number of reasons (pilot request, traffic flow, general efficiencies). Actually closing the STAR with an approach clearance has nothing to do with being lazy as you suggest. Many operators file and fly the full STAR routes and do not want to be taken off of them.

Weather has nothing to do with it, severe clear or WOXOF, the procedure can be flown. Why would crap weather preclude the use of an IFR procedure? Busy or not also does not determine the ability to use them. I have issued the approach clearance to number 5 of 12 and allowed the aircraft to "close" it up. Tactical speed adjustments can be used to make it fit.

As for calling ATC and looking for instructions? If you are the only aircraft on the frequency this may the thing to do. If there are other aircraft (they may be on another frequency) there should be no need to as. As the plate already specifies what you should be doing. That is the whole point of a STAR, to reduce communication. If you were to spend an extended time on the heading after the DTW then a call to confirm communications are still working would be in order.

I'm not sure which airport you are flying into that has given you these impressions, but if you fly into an airport with any significant traffic I would not suggest assuming a comm failure at the DTW. In fact more often than not you may find your vector to final just shortly after passing the DTW.

Edit: I checked your profile and see medivac pilot. This would explain why you never see yourself getting to the DTW. Priority has its privileges.

Ok, I read your inputs and I know pretty much all what you said. To clarify my question, I want to know what happens with the OPEN STAR RNAV once it reaches the DTW and you have to remain on the heading until your receive further vectors. IS IT AUTOMATICALLY closed and you're therefore on a heading and no longer under the OPEN STAR RNAV or does the STAR RNAV remain OPEN AND ACTIVE eventhough you're past the DTW, and that is until the ATC clears you to the FACF?

This is exactly what's puzzling me. If I understand this correctly, the DTW is the point where the OPEN STAR RNAV terminates, and that no matter if you do get vectors or not, the OPEN STAR RNAV closes once past the DTW and thereafter you EXPECT vectors while maintining a heading, but THE OPEN STAR RNAV is no longer active, right?

The DTW is where the STAR will terminates IF you don't receive an approach clearance prior to reading it. At that point you are simply on radar vectors for the expected approach. If you have received an approach clearance you would turn at the DTW and fly to the FACF and conduct your approach while complying with any charted altitudes and/or speeds.

[loopa]

The DTW is where the STAR will terminates IF you don't receive an approach clearance prior to reading it. At that point you are simply on radar vectors for the expected approach. If you have received an approach clearance you would turn at the DTW and fly to the FACF and conduct your approach while complying with any charted altitudes and/or speeds.

Therefore, if you're IMC and experience a COM failure after DTW without an app clrnc, you would continue with procedures for COM FAILURE in IMC during RADAR VECTORS.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

The DTW is where the STAR will terminates IF you don't receive an approach clearance prior to reading it. At that point you are simply on radar vectors for the expected approach. If you have received an approach clearance you would turn at the DTW and fly to the FACF and conduct your approach while complying with any charted altitudes and/or speeds.

Therefore, if you're IMC and experience a COM failure after DTW without an app clrnc, you would continue with procedures for COM FAILURE in IMC during RADAR VECTORS.

Precisely!

[Big Pistons Forever]

The DTW is where the STAR will terminates IF you don't receive an approach clearance prior to reading it. At that point you are simply on radar vectors for the expected approach. If you have received an approach clearance you would turn at the DTW and fly to the FACF and conduct your approach while complying with any charted altitudes and/or speeds.

Therefore, if you're IMC and experience a COM failure after DTW without an app clrnc, you would continue with procedures for COM FAILURE in IMC during RADAR VECTORS.

At that point the approach clearance is moot as you are going to close the STAR yourself by heading to the FACF and then flying the approach.

[DHCdriver]

At that point the approach clearance is moot as you are going to close the STAR yourself by heading to the FACF and then flying the approach.

Exactly, just like it says in the CAP.

[watermeth]

everything you need to know is in the AIM

[Tim]

keep in mind if youre on vectors you may be required to dead-reckon yourself onto final!

everything you need to know is in the AIM

wow, i vote most useless new-guy post! hes quoting the aim, so he obviously knows where to find it. hes asking about interpretation.

[Cap'n P8]

If you are doing an open STAR with the autopilot coupled to your GPS/FMS/FMC in Nav mode, when it reaches the DTW it will simply continue on the depicted heading. As someone mentioned, the wording on the chart alerts you to the fact that you will physically have to close it yourself. Depending on what kind of equipment you are using there will be several ways to do this. At the most basic level, you could simply select heading mode and turn it towards the FACF and manually sequence to the inbound (FACF to FAF, etc). If you have enough notice before you get too close to the DTW, you should be able to go into the flightplan waypoints and close them, ie. have the DTW waypoint sequenced directly before the FACF with no breaks or gaps (or whatever terminology you're used to using).

As a note, I'm currently using a Universal FMS. Looking on the flight plan page with an open STAR, it will show the DTW waypoint and the next waypoint will be a "command heading" which I will be able to track with nav mode coupled to the fms, (PFD will display heading select IIRC). If I manually close it prior to reaching the DTW, when I go to the flight plan page the DTW and FACF waypoints will be one above the other and the the bearing and distance should make sense, ie. 90 degree turn and the proper distance.)

I've never actually flown a STAR with a straight GPS, don't know if you would manually have to select heading mode to follow the depicted heading if it was still open, but I imagine linking the two waypoints would be pretty straightforward to close it.

Sorry if I rambled on a bit!