Westjet Braking Action Report

[The Raven]

I was in YWG last night and heard this exchange on the radio at about 23:30 local.

YWG TWR: "Westjet XXX can you give me a braking action report?"

Westjet XXX: "I'd say fairly good".

YWG TWR: "Is that fair or good".

Westjet XXX: "Fairly good".

YWG TWR: (after a pause) "I'll put it down as fair then".

Westjet XXX: "I'd call it Medium"

Can someone educate me (because I'm too lazy to look up the answer)? I thought braking action was either Good, Fair, Poor, or Nil. Are Fairly Good or Medium proper terms to use when reporting braking action? Has Medium replaced Fair as a term to describe braking?

The whole exchange on the radio seemed to lead to confusion and misinterpretation.

[Beefitarian]

It may have been the first time he had to say. Dude might have never landed on anything but a dry clear runway in the last 30 years.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Actually, I've heard that many Westjet pilots don't get action at all. I didn't understand it was so literal.

[Beefitarian]

That's why we need a "zingbot 3000" emoticon.

[Expat]

Actually, I've heard that many Westjet pilots don't get action at all. I didn't understand it was so literal.

Action will happen when they fly south!

[Go Guns]

Medium and fair are interchangeable. From a quick Google search, it seems fair is more of an American term and medium is more the ICAO term.

[justwork]

As long as it's not worse than poor who really cares?

[frog]

yes medium equals fair.
And it does matter because good could be enough to stop safely when fair or poor may be not.

[True North]

As long as it's not worse than poor who really cares?

Evidently you have never flown a large jet aircraft.

[SAR_YQQ]

Evidently you have never flown a large jet aircraft.

In all fairness, I would rather have an accurate RCR/JBI than some sort of subjective terms (poor, fair, good, etc) - especially since all my performance data (on the big, heavy jet that I currently fly) relies of RCR 23/26, 10 or 7.

[True North]

Well if you really do fly a "big, heavy jet" then you ought to know better than to make a statement like that. There are plenty of times a report of fair or medium is not going to do it for you.

Regarding RCR ( which I assume relates to RSC - Runway Surface Condition) and JBI (don't know where you can get those anymore so I assume you mean CRFI) - we'd all like accurate and timely reports. Unfortunately that just doesn't happen all the time. In fact CRFI reports can be hours old which is worse than useless. So sometimes all you've got is a BAR from a similar type, which is infinitely better than a CRFI that is 4 hours old.

[Beefitarian]

It was probably too slippery to get the truck out to check so they just asked the pilots landing what they thought.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

Well if you really do fly a "big, heavy jet" then you ought to know better than to make a statement like that. There are plenty of times a report of fair or medium is not going to do it for you.

Regarding RCR ( which I assume relates to RSC - Runway Surface Condition) and JBI (don't know where you can get those anymore so I assume you mean CRFI) - we'd all like accurate and timely reports. Unfortunately that just doesn't happen all the time. In fact CRFI reports can be hours old which is worse than useless. So sometimes all you've got is a BAR from a similar type, which is infinitely better than a CRFI that is 4 hours old.

As far as I know Canadian ATC is still using the term fair as well. GOOD, FAIR, POOR, NIL are the references we have.

As a side note personal descriptions of braking and turbulence are pretty much useless to us. "I got a few pretty good bumps" means what? Mod Chop? Continuous Light? Please use standard terms based on the descriptions that are published.

I do note the AIM doesn't actually specify descriptions for braking actions. I'm not sure about the CFS as I don't have one handy to double check it.

[Braun]

FAIR is what we use not medium, i'd confirm with the pilot if he said medium.

[CD]

From the Glossary for Pilots and Air Traffic Services Personnel (TP 11958E)

braking action report

A report of conditions on the airport movement area that provides a pilot with an idea of the degree or quality of braking that the pilot might expect (good, fair, poor, or nil).

•also called: braking action
Fr: rapport de freinage

[Go Guns]

This is from a Transport Canada document dated 2003 regarding making better use of runway friction information in practice to reduce the risks and possibly operating costs.

The survey of Canadian airline pilots indicated that most pilots are aware of guidance material for operating on contaminated runways, and that most apply some adjustment factor to the landing field length when runways are slippery. The TC Aeronautical Information Publication includes tables, referred to as the Canadian Runway Friction Index (CRFI) Tables, derived from the Falcon-20 tests at North Bay, which provide adjustments to the landing field length for given CRFI values. However, most pilots surveyed indicated that their aircraft manuals and company material referred to reporting braking action as “good”, “medium” or “poor” and do not specifically refer to runway friction.

[SAR_YQQ]

Well if you really do fly a "big, heavy jet" then you ought to know better than to make a statement like that.

344,000 lbs meets the Heavy category.

Regarding RCR ( which I assume relates to RSC - Runway Surface Condition) and JBI (don't know where you can get those anymore so I assume you mean CRFI)

RCR = Runway Condition Report, which is completely different from the RSC. RSC would indicate the presence of snow, slush, ice on the runway. RCR is another method of determining how slippery the actual ashphalt/concrete/gravel is (aka Mu, JBI, CRFI, RCR).

FWIW my Boeing manual does not give me charts to determine landing roll by using Poor, Fair and Good. If an airport can not provide me with an accurate RCR, Mu Reading or CRFI (Canada only) then I would not be legally able to land.

There is a big world of aviation out there that extends beyond Canada's borders - knowledge of how other countries do things is beneficial.

[floatpilot]

344,000 lbs meets the Heavy category.

Wow That's HEAVY!!!! good for you.

[True North]

Well if you really do fly a "big, heavy jet" then you ought to know better than to make a statement like that.

344,000 lbs meets the Heavy category.

Regarding RCR ( which I assume relates to RSC - Runway Surface Condition) and JBI (don't know where you can get those anymore so I assume you mean CRFI)

RCR = Runway Condition Report, which is completely different from the RSC. RSC would indicate the presence of snow, slush, ice on the runway. RCR is another method of determining how slippery the actual ashphalt/concrete/gravel is (aka Mu, JBI, CRFI, RCR).

FWIW my Boeing manual does not give me charts to determine landing roll by using Poor, Fair and Good. If an airport can not provide me with an accurate RCR, Mu Reading or CRFI (Canada only) then I would not be legally able to land.

There is a big world of aviation out there that extends beyond Canada's borders - knowledge of how other countries do things is beneficial.

RCR. Please provide an example, I'm curious as to the difference between and RCR and an RSC. And while you're at it, who is providing JBI or Mu reports these days?

And you better call Boeing, you're missing some pages from you're QRH.

[Nark]

The FAA uses Mu.
http://av8.home.comcast.net/~av8/online ... /brake.pdf

Which is helpful, because braking action reported by a 737 doesn't really mean squat to me when I was flying a PA31.

[CD]

Which is helpful, because braking action reported by a 737 doesn't really mean squat to me when I was flying a PA31.

Well, this one likely reported "nil", which would have meant something to ya...

[Nark]

The NTSB determined Tuesday that the probable cause of the Dec. 5, 2005 landing overrun of a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 at Chicago Midway Airport was the pilots' failure to use reverse thrust to slow the airplane after landing. This occurred because the pilots' lack of experience with the airplane's autobrake system distracted them from using the thrust reversers, the Safety Board said. After it overran the end of Runway 31C, the airliner penetrated blast and perimeter fences before coming to rest on a road, where it struck an automobile. One automobile occupant was killed, one was seriously injured, and three received minor injuries. Eighteen passengers of the 98 aboard the jet received only minor injuries, but the airplane was substantially damaged. According to the NTSB, contributing factors were Southwest Airlines' failure to clarify policies regarding landing distance calculations and the design of its on-board performance computer. Also contributing to the severity of the accident was the absence of an arresting system at the end of 6,522-foot Runway 31C, which offers only 5,826 feet of available landing distance.

I could argue, that technique plays a significant role in braking action reports. I brake differently in the poor-mans King Air, than I did in the mighty E170. Someone described the landing gear system on the 99 as: Ferrari Brakes with Honda Civic tires.

I'm also willing to bet that two 737 pilots brake differently (assuming they haven't selected autobrakes). Each might report different braking action, all else being the same.

Level the playing field with a force of friction index, and I can correlate that to the aircraft I'm flying, rather than "Previous 737 traffic reports braking action poor."
Landing distance availability also plays a psychological factor. In Midway, I don't need 5,826' feet to stop in the Beech on a snowy day. However comparable runways I flew into with the 170, I knew I didn't have 12,000 feet to play with anymore, so I'm going to be a bit more aggressive on braking. Also with anti-skid, I'm not worried about flat spotting the tires. Where as the smaller birds I've flown don't have that luxury.

[SAR_YQQ]

RCR. Please provide an example, I'm curious as to the difference between and RCR and an RSC.

I googled "Runway Condition Reading" - just so that I wouldn't be spreading second hand information without references (T.O.'s are at work):

Runway Condition Reading (RCR) is a measure of tire-to-runway friction coefficient. RCR is
given as a whole number. This value is used to define the braking characteristics for various
runway surface conditions. The reported RCR is therefore a factor in determining any
performance involving braking, such as critical engine failure speed and refusal speed. Some
airfields report runway braking characteristics in accordance with International Civil Aviation
Organization (ICAO) documents, as "good", "medium", and "poor." In order to relate these
ICAO categories to an RCR or when RCR values are not available, the following relationship
will be used:

Dry Good 23
Wet Medium 12
Icy Poor 5

Runway Surface Condition (RSC) is the average depth covering the runway surface measured to
1/10 inch (1 inch is equivalent to a RSC of 10). RSC types are listed below:

WR Wet Runway, standing water
SLR Slush on Runway
LSR Loose Snow on Runway
PSR Packed Snow on Runway
IR Ice on Runway

The RSC affects both the acceleration and stopping performance of the aircraft and must be
accounted for when determining critical field length, critical engine failure speed, and refusal
speed

I will stand corrected on the apparent link between "good, medium and poor" and the RCR - however, like it was just mentioned, I really can't take into account another type of aircraft's braking action when it comes to how it will affect me.

[co-joe]

This is only even a discussion because ATC couldn't figure how to enter "fairly good" into the computer. If you passed braking action "fairly good" to the next 50 pilots on approach or until a more clear and concise answer came over the air I bet no one would question what "fairly good" from a 737 ahead of you meant.

[True North]

The FAA uses Mu.
http://av8.home.comcast.net/~av8/online ... /brake.pdf

Which is helpful, because braking action reported by a 737 doesn't really mean squat to me when I was flying a PA31.

The FAA is the only authority I am aware of that uses Mu reports. My question was to determine if anyone else does. SAR_YQQ also stated he uses JBI reports, I'd like to know where he gets those as well.

Mu reports have very limited value. The FAA states "the specific numerical value has no particular significant (sic) other than to provide changing runway condition trend information when associated with previous or subsequent runway friction measurement values."

In other words, there is no way to apply the Mu value to determine the coefficient of friction or braking capability and that is why the FAA is moving away from Mu and going to - wait for it - braking action reports.

Obviously Nark, a BAR from a 737 is of limited value to you if you're in a PA31 and conversely, the report from a PA31 is completely useless to the 737. That's why the report needs to come from a "similar type".