iflyforpie wrote:Training pilots is part of the business. You figure out what your training costs are going to be, how many revenue hours you fly, and then you come up with an amortized figure to add to your rates. You've got to factor in attrition. Joe is smart enough to know by now that Buffalo isn't for everybody forever, and there are lots of other things that can ruin a training investment (lost medical, hitting a berm with a sled, etc).
$20,000 sounds like a lot to you or me (Is it $20,000 per person? Or per aircraft with more than one person?) and business owners will make a big deal out of it, but $20,000 is less than what it costs to fill an Electra to the brim with Jet-A. A friend of mine owns the local A&W and he was complaining he had to buy a $1000 oven to keep bread warm. I said what's the big deal? He said, what would you as an employee think of paying for that? Yeah, $1000 out of a $25,000/yr job really hurts; but $1000 out of a $1,000,000+ gross annual revenue is hardly anything...And what are pilots supposed to do? Not apply to anywhere, then when you apply tell Joe and get treated like shit for who knows how long? I'm sure Buffalo has taken pilots from other jobs too (though God knows why?).
Yea accidents happen you deal with it, actively looking to go isn't an accident.
Gross revenue means nothing it's net profit that counts if your net profit is $10,000 that unexpect $1,000 oven just wiped out 10% of your profit.
I'm sure if he was looking at First Air he was looking that other companies as well.
Well i guess it takes all kinds. Its hard to believe someone that is truly happy in their job and were they live would send out resumes. Why would you do this to boost your ego or what? If your sending out resumes you are looking for a job or you have more money a time on your hands then you need. If your not looking for a job why are you waisting peoples time looking at a resume that will go no were. Sorry my friend but i call BS on anyone sending resumes out with out an intention of moving.
When I worked in corporate aviation I liked my job, didn't hate it but it wasn't where I wanted to stay for ever so I sent out resumes to the places I wanted to end up in my career. It's got nothing to do with ego or having too much time on my hands. I'm sure he had EVERY intention of moving if the job and offer were right and better than what he had now. Why wouldn't he?
iflyforpie wrote:Training pilots is part of the business. You figure out what your training costs are going to be, how many revenue hours you fly, and then you come up with an amortized figure to add to your rates. You've got to factor in attrition. Joe is smart enough to know by now that Buffalo isn't for everybody forever, and there are lots of other things that can ruin a training investment (lost medical, hitting a berm with a sled, etc).
$20,000 sounds like a lot to you or me (Is it $20,000 per person? Or per aircraft with more than one person?) and business owners will make a big deal out of it, but $20,000 is less than what it costs to fill an Electra to the brim with Jet-A. A friend of mine owns the local A&W and he was complaining he had to buy a $1000 oven to keep bread warm. I said what's the big deal? He said, what would you as an employee think of paying for that? Yeah, $1000 out of a $25,000/yr job really hurts; but $1000 out of a $1,000,000+ gross annual revenue is hardly anything...And what are pilots supposed to do? Not apply to anywhere, then when you apply tell Joe and get treated like shit for who knows how long? I'm sure Buffalo has taken pilots from other jobs too (though God knows why?).
Yea accidents happen you deal with it, actively looking to go isn't an accident.
Gross revenue means nothing it's net profit that counts if your net profit is $10,000 that unexpect $1,000 oven just wiped out 10% of your profit.
I'm sure if he was looking at First Air he was looking that other companies as well.
Well said sarg. I`d just like to add a few things...
iflyforpie...It is called "total absorption cost" and good managers figure this type of expence into those costs. That said....if only 1 person walks out with one PPC...maybe the company will recover. What happens when 6 pilots all decide to leave the same way, similiar time? Then the 20 grand hit just became 120K. As sarg said overall gross revenue in no way reflects net profit. We felt lucky to have a 10-13% margin at the end of the day...so if a company has a gross of say 5 mill per yr with a 10% margin, thats 500K in GROSS profit... now 6 pilots walk out with 6 PPC`s that generated very little revenue... now your gross is down to 380K and you havent even addressed the "oh shit, we didnt expect that pile" and thats a very real expence. i.e you go mechanical in a foreign area to your ops. Now you have to put your 15 passengers in hotels in an expensive city. Your maintenance costs are triple because he is the only AMO in town and you need to get going. These types of unforeseen expences affect the gross profit...so at the end of the day there aren`t many beans left to count. Trust me, ive operated older tin in the North for many years and you have no idea the costs involved in trying to keep older tin in the air, in adverse weather conditions etc etc. There is no way to plan for total absorption costs that are completely unexpected. So that affects your bottom line as well. 20K to an op Joe`s size may only be a full fuel load on the Electra, but that fuel load will get them a revenue far exceeding 20K, so its not even comparable. The fact remains that once again a pilot walked out with his shiny new PPC that he wont even be using at First, and it cost Joe 20 grand in real money. Its easy to say its only this or that or a drop in the bucket...when its not YOUR money. 20 grand to Joe is just like 20 grand to anyone else.
A few seasons back wasn't a show dedicated to Devin heading to Vancouver for an interview with some airline. He didn't get or didn't accept the job but I don't recall Joe giving him a hard time for trying. Also didn't Joe put a couple of DC-3 co-pilots back on the ramp so Gord could log more time for a captains upgrade. Along with the operating costs of a C46 for training, its also not available for hauling freight during this time. I'd get quite a chuckle if that job evaporated while Gord was enroute to FirstAir. Its happened many times before. That would wipe that smirk off his face. I think under the circumstances Joe handled his anger very well. Surprised he didn't put his boot on Gords ass as he went out the door. Honesty and loyalty goes both ways.
godsrcrazy wrote:The fact is he took the upgrade knowing he would bolt as quick as he could.
From the way they treat people from day one with the company, I would assume EVERYONE is looking to bolt as quick as they could.
I look at it this way: If I want people to stay with my company, I make it an inviting place to be. I treat them with respect, I pay them well, I get them doing things that play to their ambitions and strengths.
Being an owner doesn't automatically make you a good manager. You may be the boss but you might not be a leader.
NWONT wrote:A few seasons back wasn't a show dedicated to Devin heading to Vancouver for an interview with some airline. He didn't get or didn't accept the job but I don't recall Joe giving him a hard time for trying. Also didn't Joe put a couple of DC-3 co-pilots back on the ramp so Gord could log more time for a captains upgrade. Along with the operating costs of a C46 for training, its also not available for hauling freight during this time. I'd get quite a chuckle if that job evaporated while Gord was enroute to FirstAir. Its happened many times before. That would wipe that smirk off his face. I think under the circumstances Joe handled his anger very well. Surprised he didn't put his boot on Gords ass as he went out the door. Honesty and loyalty goes both ways.
Actually, I'm surprised Gord kept his cool the way he did. Many other pilots would have knocked old Joe on his ass (old man or not) for making accusations like that and insulting someone's integrity. He assumed and assumed wrong that Gord knew of the job offer. Didn't look like many of the other pilots were upset at him for leaving, more like envious. Although it does open up a spot for them to move into
Well I don't usually chirp in on this site too much, but I find myself sitting around today with nothing else to do, and Star Trek isn't on for another hour or so, so here goes:
I saw the show last night and after reading all the above comments, I feel compelled to add a few points to the thread.
First of all, I'm pretty sure First Air does some kind of interview and SIM Eval, in Ottawa, if I recall correctly. So, to say that they just "called" and hired him on the spot seems far fetched to me. Which means that he already did the interview process and was in a hiring pool of some kind. Which means it was basically a matter of time before he got hired. So if that's the case, maybe he shouldn't have gone ahead with the left seat PPC.
Second, I'm truly surprised that Buffalo doesn't have any type of training bonds. I'm no more a fan of them than anyone else on this site, but they are the reality these days for most companies. Let's face it, it would be a smart business decision for Joe to have something in place. Buffalo doesn't have too many 'lifers' there, and if Joe is gonna be pissed when ever someone leaves, maybe he should have his butt covered to recoup that lost money. Pilots are always going to be looking for the next job. Let's face it.
I don't blame Gordo for taking the First Air job, how could he not? Reliable modern turbine aircraft, ALPA support, opportunity to advance his career and move out of Yellowknife at some point. Where would you rather work? He's done enough seasons on those old tin cans, he's advanced about as far as he can go, he might as well start at the bottom of First Air and get his seniority going while he's young. He'd be foolish to stay any longer at Buffalo in my opinion.
One last point I want to say is that an earlier post on here said that he should be grateful for Joe paying his salary for 6 years, upgrading him, etc. I don't totally disagree with that statement, but I kind of see it the other way around. Gord has been paying Joe's salary. By him doing his trips, getting the job done, making things happen that shouldn't even be possible. For all you guys flying in the north, you know what I'm talking about. It's a damn challenging place to fly. Although I don't know Gord, Joe, or Buffalo at all, I'd be willing to bet it's the same story out there. Gord being a line pilot is the guy that makes the money for the company. He is the guy that has to make the tough decisions, and he directly controls how much money Buffalo makes. Maybe he's "just gotten in at minimums" a couple of times in order to get a trip done, maybe he's not snagged something at the end of the day because he knows that the MEL will be too restrictive, and they'd lose a trip because of it. Flying high when he's got a rocket tailwind, and doing an enroute climb when he's got 40 on the nose. You guys in the north know what I mean by all this stuff, and anyone that comes on here and cuts me up for saying these things probably hasn't been a Captain north of 60. It's tough to get the job done up here, if you play by all the rules. Now, I don't know what kind of a Captain he was, but if he's done some of the things that I think he's probably had to do, they he's put money back in Joe's pocket countless times I would imagine, and I think it's a real shame if Joe doesn't see that.
So, if you've made it this far reading my post, I guess I can sum it up here. If Gordo knew First Air was just around the corner, then shame on him for doing that.
On the other hand, shame on Joe for treating a 6 year guy (a veteran in this industry) like crap when he's done all that I imagine he's had to do for that company.
One thing I have wondered about is where are the unions that support the Package delivery guys. The pilots are doing the package guys job for basicly free for the chance to fly.
How about the flight attendant unions? These pilots are taking jobs that a professional flight attendant would do. Can you imaging the outcry if an Air Canada pilot started doing F/A jobs for lower wage so he/she could get the 787 upgrade.
Any company should hire a person for the job they need. If you need a pilot, hire a pilot. If you need an F/A, hire an F/A. If you need a delivery driver, hire one.
It would be interesting to see someone knuckle down with Joe. The old boy didn't get where he is by backing down to children. It takes an old dog for a hard road. One good punch in the c*#ksucker and many times the fight is over. I'd put my money on Joe. Thats not the point here. If you don't want to work the ramp, then don't work it. Sit at home til AC calls. If you don't want to fly those old birds in a harsh northern environment, stay the hell in the south. I don't know when the world changed that the man who signs your paycheck is supposed to be eternally grateful that you showed up for work. Of course people will move forward with their careers but now that plane has to be taken out of service to train a replacement for a guy that never flew a revenue flight. When all the bellyaching starts about training bonds and the indignation surrounding them just reread this thread.
iflyforpie wrote:$20,000 sounds like a lot to you or me (Is it $20,000 per person? Or per aircraft with more than one person?) and business owners will make a big deal out of it, but $20,000 is less than what it costs to fill an Electra to the brim with Jet-A. A friend of mine owns the local A&W and he was complaining he had to buy a $1000 oven to keep bread warm. I said what's the big deal? He said, what would you as an employee think of paying for that? Yeah, $1000 out of a $25,000/yr job really hurts; but $1000 out of a $1,000,000+ gross annual revenue is hardly anything...
Either way, that $20K could have been used for something productive which benefits the existing staff, such as wages, parts, training another candidate etc. Your A&W friend who spent 1K on an oven is buying a productive asset for his company. He didn't flush 1K down the drain training an employee who more than likely knew he/she was leaving soon. Regardless of the revenue, costs can easily equal or surpass revenues, especially at small airlines. It's tough to argue that pilots get poor wages while saying it's ok when a company loses 20K.
iflyforpie wrote:$20,000 sounds like a lot to you or me (Is it $20,000 per person? Or per aircraft with more than one person?) and business owners will make a big deal out of it, but $20,000 is less than what it costs to fill an Electra to the brim with Jet-A. A friend of mine owns the local A&W and he was complaining he had to buy a $1000 oven to keep bread warm. I said what's the big deal? He said, what would you as an employee think of paying for that? Yeah, $1000 out of a $25,000/yr job really hurts; but $1000 out of a $1,000,000+ gross annual revenue is hardly anything...
Either way, that $20K could have been used for something productive which benefits the existing staff, such as wages, parts, training another candidate etc. Your A&W friend who spent 1K on an oven is buying a productive asset for his company. He didn't flush 1K down the drain training an employee who more than likely knew he/she was leaving soon. Regardless of the revenue, costs can easily equal or surpass revenues, especially at small airlines. It's tough to argue that pilots get poor wages while saying it's ok when a company loses 20K.
Plus the fact the new oven becomes a capital cost...hence the 1st 1000 he makes is tax free.
Now granted it's difficult to tell what's real on this show and what's BS but it seemed to me that the young Co-pilot's training on the C-46 was being conducted during revenue flights. Is this the way Buffalo does training? If so Buffalo certainly is not putting 20,000 dollars of training into him.
It appeared he was thrown into his first flight ever in the plane on an ice strip with obstacles at the end, then gets ripped on for making a mistake, a case could be made that he should not have ever been in that situation, and that training should be conducted in a more controlled environment especially with a 250hr pilot in a 50,000lb tailwheel.
Just my take on the latest episode but again who knows if any of it was real or staged.
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"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
I was told here previously by a Buffalo pilot that their first tailwheel
aircraft is a DC-3 (or you are asserting, a C-46). This is insane.
Basler, for example, when faced with training a crew which has
lots of multi-ifr time but no tailwheel time, has a Maule that they
use for the crews to get 50 hrs in, finishing off with short fields,
and only then into the BT-67.
Roar wrote:Now granted it's difficult to tell what's real on this show and what's BS but it seemed to me that the young Co-pilot's training on the C-46 was being conducted during revenue flights. Is this the way Buffalo does training? If so Buffalo certainly is not putting 20,000 dollars of training into him.
That's what I thought too. If a company can get away with doing training on revenue flights, they will.
Regardless, it's pretty hard to know what the whole story is when there is so much editing that goes on. Doing a PPC at company expense when you know you are headed out the door tomorrow is not cool. And neither is accusing one of your 6 year pilots of lying.
Hi,
I have worked all over Canada for a number of companies.
I work for a major airline.
I believe in hard work and respect .
All pilots want to do is fly, gain experience
on many aircraft types, make a decent living and ultimately
as they get older, have a better lifestyle.
Simple right? No , because we want to fly so bad,
we make many sacrifices both financial and personal, that
we become prostitutes , who become easily verbally abused
and always live in fear of losing our jobs.
When I talked to older pilots saying they would never let their children
become pilots , I found that absurd. Now, a few years later, i know why.
Joe simply is a bully, and the people that stick around that company
are battered wives. " he'll change, he did not mean what he said, he still has
a heart of gold , he is just rough around the egdes...." and so on.
The only other thing that sticks in my mind were two things
a seasoned pilot told me is one, an airline is not your family,
your family is at home and will support you any time, and second,
the decision that YOU make about your career is the right one.
Joe will be gone soon, probably get into aviation hall of fame, etc.
He will be a good memory in the reflection of those pilots.
One thing I do know is that former northern pilots are usually
hard workers, have good hands and feet , are not prima donas, and do their jobs.
This is something Joe and others like him should remembered for .
I don't post on here often but after reading all the comments on the Gord/Joe blow up I felt compelled to add my two cents:
First of all I do not work in the industry. I completed all of my flight training in 2001/2002 when the industry was probably at it's worst for low time pilots. My story is probably similar to many out there as I was faced with a choice to take a "civilian" job or continue with my dream to fly commercially. After one frustrating missed opportunity after another I ended up taking a management position with the company I worked for and gave up looking for a position in aviation.
It is situations like this that make it hard for low time pilots to find any type of work in this industry. Is it any wonder that many companies require training bonds when you see how easily a company can get burned. I feel very strongly about this because one of my missed opportunities in aviation were due to my not being able to afford to pay a training bond. If I was in Gord's shoes I would have handled the matter differently:
First, if Gord knew in any way that a job offer from First Air was coming he should have made Buffalo aware before taking the PPC.
Second, if Gord truly didn't think he had any chance with First Air and the offer was truly a surprise he could have handled his exit strategy better. If it were me I would have respectfully declined the position with First Air with an explanation that Buffalo had just spent significant resources on my upgrade. I would then go to Buffalo and commit to one year of flying the C-46 to repay their trust in me. I would make it clear to Buffalo that I was passing on the job offer with First Air but after a one year commitment I would be looking to move on. If First Air did not respect this decision and jump at the chance to hire Gord after a year I would be very surprised. One year shouldn't hurt Gord's plan to fly for a major carrier and the experience he would gain in that year as Captain of a C-46 would only help with his goals.
It is hard to say what the true story is here. Television tends to edit and cut to make the story more dramatic. It is obvious that the whole story isn't being told here but these are my observations from what I do see. Just my 2 cents...
Oh my god, everyone is so misinformed. Just the facts: It doesn't cost 20k to do a PPC maybe 2k for jsut the ride since all of the dedicated training is done on empty legs. Gord got hired 2 months after doing his ride on the C46, it wasn't the next day like the way they make it look on the show. After giving two weeks to Joe directly he left. The way some of you make it sound you should stay at one company for the rest of your career because you owe so much to that employer for hiring you. Thanks for taking aviation back decades, everyone leaves Buffalo eventually it's a stepping stone.
If First Air did not respect this decision and jump at the chance to hire Gord after a year I would be very surprised
Yes, but that one year, on a seniority list, could make all the difference down the road. MAybe it was Gord's career goal to get to First Air - why would you say no to that, or risk them copping an attitude:"F@$k him, he didn't come when we wanted, so why should we hire him when he wants?" (NOT saying that's what FA would do, mind!)
Perhaps the most graceful strategy would have been to decline the -46, saying that he was happy where he was?
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Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
PistonPounder2800 wrote:Just the facts: It doesn't cost 20k to do a PPC maybe 2k for jsut the ride since all of the dedicated training is done on empty legs.
That is very interesting, if that is true Buffalo does not have a leg to stand on, in expecting guys to stay around after being PPC'd as the airplane costs are already covered, with the exception of the flight the Ride takes place on. No wonder they don't have a bond at Buffalo there training costs must be comparatively low.
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PistonPounder2800 wrote:Oh my god, everyone is so misinformed. Just the facts: It doesn't cost 20k to do a PPC maybe 2k for jsut the ride since all of the dedicated training is done on empty legs. Gord got hired 2 months after doing his ride on the C46, it wasn't the next day like the way they make it look on the show. After giving two weeks to Joe directly he left.
PP2800
+1
I got an interview with FA at the same time as Gord, except there was a reason for me to stay, as there was some sleek turbo prop time ahead, and some big bucks for the company. Training in the Electra is far more expensive, and respectfully will think it over before going somewhere else. That being said, I will look out for myself, just as the company looks out for itself as well.
flyingthebug, you speak like an owner or a manager who has to be accountable for an operation, and I have a lot of respect for that. You have the job of having to say 'NO' when required, and you're likely the person who gets the 3am phone calls. If you do your job well (and it's not easy), your employees continue to earn a paycheque and get to support themselves and their families. If you slip up, everybody gets to go and find new jobs. The good VPs, Ops Managers and Chief Pilots that I respect will never earn what they are actually worth.
flyinthebug wrote: Its easy to say its only this or that or a drop in the bucket...when its not YOUR money. 20 grand to Joe is just like 20 grand to anyone else.
I have a good friend who left a good job to work at Transat, and then got a layoff notice before his training was even complete. You can't just go back to your old job, and when the hiring process for a new one is a matter of months and not days, most of us can't afford to float our lifestyles in the meantime, and it often costs us our savings, our relationships, our morale. In that sense, "It's easier to say 'it's just business'...when it's not YOUR life."
I guess what we can take away is that when the need arises, we can expect each party to act in their own self interest.
Just watched this week's soap..
A few comments/questions, generally in chronological order..
Hard not to feel happy for Larry when Mikey gives him the news of his upgrade - genuine enthusiasm and emotion there.
So if the -46 is such a bear, why land it downwind as Gord did at ?Norman Wells?
Maintenance isn't my strong suit, but can't you just weld up exhaust cracks?
When Larry is fuel-oiling prior to his ride, why did he stuff ?oily? rags into the outside of the left nacelle? Seems to me to be a bit of a fire hazard?
Why land the -46 tail low? Why not just wheel it on and pin the mains like they seem to do with the -3, and then chop the power, and wait for the tail to fall? Is the tailwheel weak?
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Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
