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cossack
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Have you ever wondered why things happen the way they do at YYZ? Then this is the place to ask your questions.

Many of you have your perceptions and experiences of what goes on and the vocal ones among you seem to be negative.

If you want to know why you have to taxy to 05 from the new east beach when you're right next to 06L? Or have to taxy all the way down E after landing on 33L?

Ask your questions here and I'll try and give you the ATC reasoning behind our actions.

Cheers!

DC


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MCB
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:01 pm 
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Baked or Mashed? :twisted:

In all seriousness -
In the past I have had the opportunity to fly overhead CYYZ whether it be to transit the zone from the north towards CYTZ or just for a site-seeing opportunity overhead 33L from the south then back south again down 15R). My question is:

a) What is the general thought about CYYZ overflights? I know you folks can get plenty busy and probably don't need the extra headache just to save one VFR guy from needing to go all the way around the zone at 1700'
b) What would be the best way to coordinate this? In the past, the CYTZ tower and Toronto Terminal have coordinated it for me. Don't know if this causes a large amount of workload as two agencies are busy coordinating when I could have just avoided Terminal airspace altogether and just spoken directly with Toronto Tower.

Thanks for any feedback. It has saved me a fair amount of time before and been an awesome experience. Just wondering if this is something that is really welcomed or just a huge inconvenience :)

Cheers!


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cossack
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Do exactly what you've done. Terminal ask the tower and the answer is usually yes. If we're on the 33s it doesn't work but on the east/west runways, there's not really an issue, especially later on in the evening after 9pm.

Enjoy the view!


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teacher
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:21 am 
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Actually, taxiing to 05 from the East beach was always something I wondered about although you folks usually accomodated the south end for us when asked for.


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cossack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:59 am 
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teacher wrote:
Actually, taxiing to 05 from the East beach was always something I wondered about although you folks usually accomodated the south end for us when asked for.

Departures from a different runway to the plan are called "non-conformers".

Departure runways are assigned based on direction of flight. Runway 05 is for V320, V36, V34 and eastbound props. We can accommodate some departures for these routes from 06L dependent on the traffic prevailing on 05 and whether or not we're landing on 06R.

If there is a lot of traffic for your airway already at 05 then you will go to 05. If its quiet then you'll get 06L if it doesn't delay "conforming" traffic going to 06L. You will be restricted to 3000 on departure (jets) and fly the SID track and be turned through usually by Departure unless your jet is turn eligible (CRJ1 and 2, E135/145 etc) then tower may do it. If you're going to ORD there's only a 3 minute flow window, so unless its really quiet, you will go to 05.

If you're on a prop assigned 05 and you get 06L, the tower is responsible for turning you through the other departure path. If there are heavies departing 05, doing this in a timely fashion is nigh-on impossible, so you'll get 05. If the weather isn't good you'll probably go to 05. You may also get 33R from B1 again on a 05 loading and weather basis. We don't offer 33R from B1 when there's a tailwind.

DC


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Braun
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:28 am 
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You guys got OT? We're running out haha :P

Nice thread, good idea!


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cossack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:36 am 
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Braun wrote:
You guys got OT? We're running out haha :P

Nice thread, good idea!

Yeah, loads but loads of trainees too. :wink:

Cheers

DC


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jump154
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:48 pm 
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cossack wrote:
Do exactly what you've done. Terminal ask the tower and the answer is usually yes. If we're on the 33s it doesn't work but on the east/west runways, there's not really an issue, especially later on in the evening after 9pm.

Enjoy the view!


So what is the phraseology for this request? "Request transit over YYZ" or something similar?


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cossack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:12 pm 
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jump154 wrote:
cossack wrote:
Do exactly what you've done. Terminal ask the tower and the answer is usually yes. If we're on the 33s it doesn't work but on the east/west runways, there's not really an issue, especially later on in the evening after 9pm.

Enjoy the view!


So what is the phraseology for this request? "Request transit over YYZ" or something similar?

Add "if possible" and that would work. "If possible" shows the controller you know its something unusual and may be refused.
Expect to be either vectored or fly the centreline of one of the 33s.


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cossack
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:29 pm 
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Nobody asked this question here but I got some questioning remarks whilst working last night that I though I might share.

I was working South Tower and we were landing on 06R and departing 06L. The weather was poor and the visibility was about 2 miles most of the evening with the ceiling between 400' and 200'.

After I would line an aircraft up with an arriving aircraft crossing the runway further down, I would often have to wait maybe 20-30 seconds before issuing take off clearance. A few who saw the crossing aircraft well off the runway reminded me they were ready. I replied "expect departure in 30 seconds". Also as a departing aircraft arrived at the runway I would seem to be hustling them to take off quickly. "Why are we rushing" I felt they were thinking, "they're landing on 06R".

It struck me that pilots probably don't realize what is happening here. When the visibility is below 3SM and ceiling less than 1000' we have to treat the runways as "dependent". This requires us to have the departure rolling by the time the arrival is at 2 final or wait until it has landed before issuing take off clearance.

When trying to maximize the arrival rate, in normal weather we are permitted to use 2.5 mile spacing and take offs and landings are independent, happening simultaneously. In the conditions described above it needs to be nearer 4 miles to permit the take off clearance to be issued, aircraft spool up and then actually be moving, all before the next arrival reaches 2 final.

On a single mixed mode runway, like 05 was last night, the same 2 miles and rolling rule is required, hence spacing of at least 6 or even 7 miles is needed to accomplish it as opposed to the normal 4 to 5 miles. You will of course be hustled with way more urgency on this runway operation as you are occupying the landing runway too. Unlike on the 06L/R scenario, where you just wait in position if this separation cannot be achieved.

I hope this helps clarify why ops are slower during poorer weather and that if we say "with no delay" or "immediate" there is a good reason for it.

Cheers

DC


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cossack
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Here's something from yesterday:

Runway 05 mixed mode, poor runway occupancy times by departures resulting in overshoots.

Twice a departing aircraft was so slow lining up than the next arrival ended up overshooting. When the arrival goes by and tower gives you the "line up" clearance, you really have to get into position quickly as the next arrival will be about 4 miles back.

On these two occasions the departure had not even reached the runway centreline when takeoff clearance was issued by which time the arrival was within 3 miles as they normally are. The extra time required to roll resulted in the inevitable overshoot.

Normal arrival spacing will have traffic 5 miles in trail as the first crossed the FAF. This will reduce to 4-4.5 miles as the first slows down. This is normal spacing and works 99% of the time. It should work 100% of the time. If you need more time advise tower before accepting the "line up" clearance. e.g. 30 seconds in position after de-icing.

Cheers

DC


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Phlyer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:23 am 
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What's the deal with EXTOL?


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cossack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:26 am 
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EXTOL? GEE111R050DME?
Or something else?


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Phlyer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:02 am 
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cossack wrote:
EXTOL? GEE111R050DME?
Or something else?

That is the one.
Getting a clearance they say "fly genacil 50 dme etc" when they used to say extol. Just wondering why they don't say extol anymore.
Thanks for the quick response!


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Pratt X 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:10 am 
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GEE is a low altitude VOR (you are routed via V252 to get there) and EXTOL is on J522 (i.e. high level) with no charted transition between the two, so the ATC flight planning computer probably doesn't reconize it. Now, if you were headed to Newark (blech!), the SHAFF arrival has it charted from GEE to EXTOL. A by-product of old technology between two countries.


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cossack
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:34 am 
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What Pratt X 3 said sounds reasonable. We just read the flight plan that's in front of us. If we ask for a read back then something's been changed from what you filed. I must say though that I've had to read a lot of GEE111050DMEs to high level traffic, so maybe there's another reason?

EXTOL is way easier, but not as easy as saying "as filed". File the pref route and that's what you'll hear.

Oh, and its Geneseo. :wink:


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Phlyer
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Thanks Guys.


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cossack
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:09 pm 
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Bump.

I think it might be time to refresh this one, especially with winter coming.


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teacher
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Ran into this one the other day. Clearance is take-off 23 on the Lester 7 (but could apply to any runway).

ATC says: "Stay with me for a turn cleared for take-off 23"

"SID cancelled" hasn't been said so would we continue on the SID and turn OR fly runway heading and wait for a turn? I've heard fly straight and turn when told AND also we're still on the SID from different pilots. Which one is it?

Thanks!


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cossack
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:27 pm 
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You're still on the SID but will be turned after departure, so don't leave the frequency.

Oh and please don't leave the frequency until we tell you to call someone else. The "stay with me" is just reminding you not to leave.


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teacher
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:20 pm 
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Cool thanks. That's what we figured.


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Jug
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:33 pm 
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How about a ground question from a corporate jet? We are parking at Skyservice, and lately we've noticed that when we land on Rwy 05 clearing at H3 or rwy 23 clearing at F, we are always told to taxi onto Rwy 15L and then taxi up to T, right turn on E then into EA. In the past we always used to come right down E when coming from 23 or 05. Any reason for the change?

Great thread, thanks!


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cossack
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:53 pm 
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In the grand scheme of things E is a northbound route when on 05/23 ops (except when full de-icing in effect) so any routing south on E should be considered non-standard and a bonus. EA is normally owned by south ground (121.9) so north ground has to coordinate your entry via E with them to save you a frequency change.

More experienced controllers learn to plan further ahead and will see EA bound traffic while you're still on short-final (you having told tower, or been asked by tower where you're parking, or just recognizing your ident) and will pre-coordinate with the other ground and they will re-route traffic via A or give way to you going in.

If its just too busy to get you down E then you will go down 15L (or even 15R if no de-icing going on) for EA. Sometimes the default 15L route is used because there hasn't been time to coordinate. Both grounds can get busy and its a low priority task, but there's always the option of using R or S from 15L to join E.


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abercrombie
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:38 pm 
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a few years ago, departing in a B1900 off RWY23 for a positioning flight to YTZ, we were asked if we wanted a VFR departure. we took it. than were given a departure instruction for an immediate left hand turn-out to keep it inside of the control tower. best departure i've ever had out of YYZ and i was based there for 3.5 years. whoever that controller was, thanks.

oh also, i think we were cleared direct the button of RWY08 at the Island from tower before we even left the ground. now that is how you get sh*t done.....


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backon3
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:30 pm 
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Since its a relative topic of late. When landing 33L why the extremely long taxi (E C2 06L etc)? Why can't we be crossed further north? The other night we had a 26 min taxi after our 40 min flight from yow


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