CARs interpretation - aerobatic?

[gaamin]

Edit

[Colonel Sanders]

I personally think a spin certainly meets the definition
of aerobatic in CAR 101.01(1) but Transport does not
agree.

Remember, this is NOT an aerobatic maneuver:

[Big Pistons Forever]

Every instructor should IMO get a aerobatic instructor rating. Not only is it a lot of fun, it will also make you a better pilot. You will also, unlike most instructors, actually understand spins and how to properly teach them.

[gaamin]

Edit

[Colonel Sanders]

Every instructor should IMO get a aerobatic instructor rating

+1

I might add that you should choose your class 1 aerobatic
instructor carefully, because the TC spin knowledge requirement
for a class 2 aerobatic instructor is woefully lightweight.

I'm sure that BPF and I both agree that an aerobatic instructor
ought to be a master of spins, because that's often what
you're going to fall into, when you're doing aerobatics. EG
a hammerhead with a metal prop and not enough forward stick.

What I teach is the basic "six pack" of spins:

.................Normal.....Accelerated....Flat
Upright...........X................X..............X
Inverted.........X.................X..............X

Tried to format that as a table, I'm sure it came
out horribly. But you need to talk about and
experience each of the six spin variants above.

You will be greatly surprised as to which
are the pussycats, and which are the tigers,
and why.

It's really very simple.

why TC would have regulations that seem to make it illegal

At the risk of being excessively pragmatic, don't try
to make sense of the CARs. Like the Rock of Gibraltor,
is just is.

[Dagwood]

602.28 No person operating an aircraft with a passenger on board...

"passenger" - means a person, other than a crew member, who is carried on board an aircraft; (passager)

"crew member" - means a person assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time; (membre d'équipage)

A student taking flight training is a crew member and not a passenger. Therefore you can do spins with a student without the requirements of 602.28.

[Colonel Sanders]

A student taking flight training is a crew member and not a passenger

I agree with you, but Transport does not. See recent discussion on night currency,
where Transport claims that a student receiving dual is a passenger.

To quote the late, great Brian Mulroney: "You can't suck and blow at the same time!"

Either a student is a passenger, or flight crew. Transport doesn't get to argue it
both ways at the same time.

But back to the CARs. CAR 401.92(a) says:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#401_92

Class 2 Rating - Privileges

401.92 The holder of a Class 2 flight instructor rating - aeroplane - aerobatic may

(a) conduct flight instruction in the performance of aerobatic manoeuvres;

While CAR 401.69 (class 4 aeroplane instructor) does not.

[cgzro]

No definition of "abnormal attitude", "abnormal acceleration", "normal flying" in this CAR.

Yeah don't you love that definition. Totally ambiguous and very easy to get violated.

The definition I use is 'a manoeuver which scares an observer or passanger'.

[mcrit]

The answer is here:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... .htm#523_3

523.3 Aeroplane Categories

(a) The normal category is limited to aeroplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 5700 kg (12,566 lbs.) or less, and intended for non-aerobatic operation. Non-aerobatic operation includes:

FAR:

(a) The normal category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 lbs (5670 kg) or less, and intended for non-acrobatic operation. Non- acrobatic operation includes:

(1) Any manoeuvre incident to normal flying;

(2) Stalls (except whip stalls); and

(3) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, in which the angle of bank is not more than 60°.

(b) The utility category is limited to aeroplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 5700 kg (12,566 lbs.) or less, and intended for limited aerobatic operation. Aeroplanes certificated in the utility category may be used in any of the operations covered under paragraph (a) of this section and in limited aerobatic operations. Limited aerobatic operation includes:

FAR:

(b) The utility category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 lbs (5670 kg) or less, and intended for limited acrobatic operation. Airplanes certificated in the utility category may be used in any of the operations covered under paragraph (a) of this section and in limited acrobatic operations. Limited acrobatic operation includes:

(1) Spins (if approved for the particular type of aeroplane); and

(2) [ Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, or similar manoeuvres, in which the angle of bank is more than 60 degrees but not more than 90 degrees.]

[GTAFI]

523.3 Aeroplane Categories

(a) The normal category is limited to aeroplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 5700 kg (12,566 lbs.) or less, and intended for non-aerobatic operation. Non-aerobatic operation includes:

FAR:

(a) The normal category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 lbs (5670 kg) or less, and intended for non-acrobatic operation. Non- acrobatic operation includes:

(1) Any manoeuvre incident to normal flying;

(2) Stalls (except whip stalls); and

(3) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, in which the angle of bank is not more than 60°.

(b) The utility category is limited to aeroplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 5700 kg (12,566 lbs.) or less, and intended for limited aerobatic operation. Aeroplanes certificated in the utility category may be used in any of the operations covered under paragraph (a) of this section and in limited aerobatic operations. Limited aerobatic operation includes:

FAR:

(b) The utility category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 lbs (5670 kg) or less, and intended for limited acrobatic operation. Airplanes certificated in the utility category may be used in any of the operations covered under paragraph (a) of this section and in limited acrobatic operations. Limited acrobatic operation includes:

(1) Spins (if approved for the particular type of aeroplane); and

(2) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, or similar manoeuvres, in which the angle of bank is more than 60 degrees but not more than 90 degrees.

(c) The aerobatic category is limited to aeroplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 5700 kg (12,566 lbs.) or less, and intended for use without restrictions, other than those shown to be necessary as a result of required flight tests.

FAR:

(c) The acrobatic category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 lbs (5670 kg) or less, and intended for use without restrictions, other than those shown to be necessary as a result of required flight tests.

(d) The commuter category is limited to propeller-driven, multi-engine aeroplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 19 or less, and a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 8618 kg (19,000 lbs.) or less. The commuter category operation is limited to any manoeuvre incident to normal flying, stalls (except whip stalls), and steep turns, in which the angle of bank is not more than 60 degrees.

(e) Except for commuter category, aeroplanes may be type certificated in more than one category if the requirements of each requested category are met.

(Change 523-1 (88-01-01))
(Change 523-5)

[cgzro]

.................Normal.....Accelerated....Flat
Upright...........X................X..............X
Inverted.........X.................X..............X

Yes, funny how one of the most disorienting aerobatic manoeuver, an upright accellerated flat spin, is not considered aerobatic.

[gaamin]

Edit

[mcrit]

My mistake. I thought the OP had asked about the legality of spinning a non aerobatic airplane, vice the legality of a non aerobatic instructor teaching spins. Guess I didn't RTFQ^2.

The CARs are murky.