Ice Pilots - Season 3

[Donald]

What do you mean this show is edited?

I always thought Coral Harbour looked alot like Iqaluit...

[Big Pistons Forever]

Unlike the DC4 or DC 6 the Electra landing is more jet like, so after touchdown the PF still has to fly the nosewheel on. Therefore you want to have the person responsible for directional control in control of everything including going into beta. Once the nosewheel is on and the airspeed has dropped below 70 knots the Captain will take over the power levers if he is not PF as he has the only nosewheel steering wheel.

I should think that the captain is responsible for directional control. Nosewheels should be flown on to the ground in many jets and props. Don't see too many jets that have someone other than the PF as being responsible for directional control.

I don't think your response really makes sense. Do you fly the Electra?

In retrospect I was not too clear on what I was saying. What I was referring to was a landing where the FO was PF. The FO lands the aircraft and then flies the nosewheel on while bringing the power levers up and over the gate and pauses. The Captain (2 crew) or FE/SO (3 crew) then call 4 beta lights. When the nosewheel is on the ground and the speed has decayed to below 70 knots the Captain takes over the control with his left hand on the nose steering wheel and his right hand on the power levers. What you don't want to have is a situation where the FO is PF and he has landed but the nosewheel is still in the air and somebody else is manipulating the Power levers as the FO is still responsible for directional control with the rudder.

[FL500]

This IS why we have bonds guys...why is that so hard for some to comprehend??


Fly safe all.

No buddy, You have bonds because you take advantage of your employees and expect them to take advantage of you.

When they return the favor you scream about the money you spent on their PPC. You never hear about how much the company saved by using pilots as rampies and delivery drivers rather then paying a full time lineman or delivery driver a normal wage plus benefits and OT.

The way owners and managers treat their employees is a direct reflection on themselves and is an indicator on how successful the company will become. Third rate operations such as Buffalo will always remain third rate since the management style will not allow it to progress to the next level.

Treat your employees with some respect and dignity and maybe you might receive some back.

Must say there are many opinions to agree with on this thread. That is something we have always tried to do with our employees, treat them well and they will return the favour. If they dont then at least your conscious is clear and who knows maybe CARMA pays them a visit in the future and burns them as they did to you.

FlySafe all

[nwesterntown]

Interesting episode last night but very typical. Management underbids a contract, sets unrealistic timelines then beats the crew like rented mules to try and cover their ass.

No doubt the manager was in a little over his head and experience level bidding a contract like that.

I've worked for guys like that. My favorite part is when they rush back in to 'save the day', after futzing it up in the first place....than play savior.

If I (Hicks ) had've stayed we probably would have been done a day early......as if

[andy_mtl]

Its nice to see joe not liking the way Gord quit, then look what they did to Dwayne...
not too impressive! at least to let him know its not that much of a chore is it?
also, with two crew that wasn t so unrealistic, otherwise it mean what most down south charter do, its well past unrealistic, with planes doing 6 legs a day.....

[kamikaze]

Dwayne didn't quote/plan properly for this job, that's for sure.

But the crew deciding to kill a day playing tourists on the base, well after they'd gotten their 8 hours of rest, and knowing full well the how tight the deadlines were, was pretty darn unprofessional too.

At least Dwayne tried to shake things up, and got one of the Electra flying ... what a waste of money, buying, what, 3 of those, and then leaving them sitting on the ramp for months on end.

When you have an asset, you make it make you money, that's the point, that's what it's for. If you don't have a plan for the asset, you don't buy it.

Clearly this is not a publically traded company

[tyndall]

Interesting episode last night but very typical. Management underbids a contract, sets unrealistic timelines then beats the crew like rented mules to try and cover their ass.

No doubt the manager was in a little over his head and experience level bidding a contract like that.

My take was a little different.

The main thing I seen was three lazy pilots with no work ethic and no customer service skills. If the law says you need 8 hours off, take 8 hours off then keep going. The equipment and the customer have no problems working after dark. These Electra dipshits need to be fired or work courier for a while. Shame to see Scotty learning from these entitled twits.

Hicks seems completely out of his element at Buffalo. You can't commute to Yellowknife. Looked more like this last contract was just an excuse to get closer to home.

[Adiabatic]

it's a TV show!
There is a lot behind the scenes that people didn't see in this episode on this trip.
Getting into Trenton at 9am. Leaving on first trip next morning. We went to bed. I did not know the load for the first trip, nor was told. I was rushed off to the hotel to get sleep. Adam loaded the plane. Adam is a Mechanic, and does not know how to do a weight and balance for this airplane. He supervised the load. When I woke up that afternoon, I asked about the load. I had to go in, and move 1500lbs box by box forward of the CG to get it right.
This trip was to be done the next morning, Management decision. Departed, got into Trenton late at night. I stayed as did everyone to supervise the load and get it right. It may be my own fault, but I created a Excel based weight and balance program from scratch(when Electra came to Buffalo), and I am the F/O and have to deal with it, and take on the loadmaster duties. We had maybe 8 crates we had to fit in the airplane, all strange sizes and widths. They didn't fit straight through the giant door because they were too long. Would you want military personnel to work around your airplane, without supervision, loading awkward pieces in the front door, and have a chance of hitting a prop, or damaging the pressure vessel? These people were great to work with, but had limited experience with this aircraft. If something happened to the airplane, and I wasn't there, I would have be shit on, big time, as well as my co-workers. I have been taught to stay with my airplane, and be responsible for it. Until I can train an actual loadmaster to do this work, I will continue to be with it for loading. And I don't see a loadmaster in the near future, this is almost a year later...
We got into Greenwood after midnight after flying all day. Again, all of us supervising and loading the airplane. It was an easy load this time. It was the middle of the night, and now we need to find a place to sleep. The person that was the liaison, brought us to the wrong place first, then eventually got us to our rooms. Since the mess hall at the base was only open certain times of day, and we had no vehicle to drive into town, meals were going to be hard to come by. I decided to go to bed with no food, while my co-workers went for breakfast when the mess opened, an hour later. I missed lunch too because I was so tired, and you can't take food from the mess hall, for one of your buddies. When I awoke, it was about 1:30 in the afternoon, I was so tired and in a strange place. I couldn't find anyone so I grabbed my gear and went to the airplane, assuming we were going flying. When I got there, I met up with the rest of the crew. We all collectively decided at this point to wait until the next morning to start the next trip.
For all you pilots out there, google great circle mapper. Put in this route that we actually flew. CYZX-CYFB-CYRB-CYZX. Look at NM distances we traveled for one round robin trip. Compute in brain. Ask average ground speed...Compute...
Yeah.....We weren't tired guys at all...This was to be trip #3 out of xxx
I'm just trying to provide info, on how different this trip was compared to what was seen on TV. Some info may be correct, some not.
We wanted to be rested for these trips, yet we were pressured to keep going, with no management to be there with us to see reality.
By the way, it was fun to do a "Top gun" by the Greenwood tower, with a CP-140 full motion sim. I just had to do it.

Oh, I've been at Buffalo 7.5 years...you don't last that long being a lazy pilot...nor have 1000hrs L188 time, with total time of just over 3000hrs.
Thanks for the praise tyndall, it feels great, you forming an opinion of a person that has been on TV for 30 minutes over the last 3 seasons of an edited TV show.
If the law said I needed 8 hours rest, and I felt so tired it affected my performance and decision making skills as a crew member, would you get in an airplane with me, if I decided to go?

AB

[daedalusx]

You're using an excel spreadsheet to load and balance a 50 ton a/c ?

Wow ....

[hawker driver]

But the crew deciding to kill a day playing tourists on the base, well after they'd gotten their 8 hours of rest, and knowing full well the how tight the deadlines were, was pretty darn unprofessional too.


)

Tyndall you and kamikaze are unbelievable!
Those comments clearly came from someone who has never flown professionally.



The decision of the captain to call fatigue and take extra rest was not only professional but was required if he felt the crew needed more rest. That decision showed that he was a true professional and not some sort of cowboy willing to bend the rules and fly fatigued. Just because you are given 8 hours rest means nothing if you have cumulative fatigue.

There are too many cowboys out there who will fly overweight, tired, or with MX issues just to make the customer and boss happy. If a crew does a real weight and balance, calls fatigue or writes up a maintenance issue and do their jobs as a true professional would and are then called out for being "lazy" or not being "team players" that shows the sad state this industry is in.

It is this mentality that has to change at the beginning of a pilots career. If you start out as a cowboy you will always be one, if you learn to act professionally you will help instill that in the next generation of pilots.
The crew was hired to fly that aircraft safely, the mechanics were hired to keep that aircraft airworthy, and the schedulers were hired to coordinate it all. Just because others drop the ball does not mean the pilots have to sacrifice safety to correct others mistakes.

Most of the cowboys never make it to the big leagues since they are weeded out and unfortunately work for third rate operations introducing new pilots to their reckless way of thinking.

Fly safe and don't let others push you into a grave.

[daedalusx]

But the crew deciding to kill a day playing tourists on the base, well after they'd gotten their 8 hours of rest, and knowing full well the how tight the deadlines were, was pretty darn unprofessional too.


)

Tyndall you and kamikaze are unbelievable!
Those comments clearly came from someone who has never flown professionally.



To decision of the captain to call fatigue and take extra rest was not only professional but was required if he felt the crew needed more rest. That decision showed that he was a true professional and not some sort of cowboy willing to bend the rules and fly fatigued. Just because you are given 8 hours rest means nothing if you have cumulative fatigue.

There are too many cowboys out there who will fly overweight, tired, or with MX issues just to make the customer and boss happy. If a crew does a real weight and balance, calls fatigue or writes up a maintenance issue and do their jobs as a true professional would and are then call out for being "lazy" or not being "team players" that shows the sad state this industry is in.

It is this mentality that has to change at beginning of a pilots career. If you start out as a cowboy you will always be one, if you learn to act professionally you will help instill that in the next generation of pilots.
The crew was hired to fly that aircraft safely, the mechanics were hired to keep that aircraft airworthy, and the schedulers were hired to coordinate it all. Just because others drop the ball does not mean the pilots have to sacrifice safety to correct others mistakes.

Most of the cowboys never make it to the big leagues since they are weeded out and unfortunately work for third rate operations introducing new pilots to their reckless way of thinking.

Fly safe and don't let others push you into a grave.

Agreed 200% !

[flyinthebug]

I tend to agree with the majority on this one. Hicks was in way over his head and truly has no idea of the "fudge factor" or what it represents. The crew were professional and did it by the book. I admire the Capt (Brian) for standing up and telling it like it was.

Hicks did a good job running his 337s and should stick to Ontario to make his hay. Im sure he grossly underbid the contract and thats why he never was called back. Im sure they will, but Joe was likely too hot to talk to him now (being at the time that was shot).

You dont come into an established business and scream CHANGE to all the employees. They will resist it and it wont work. I liked the new managers approach...sit back, shut up, listen & watch for the 1st 6 months, then go from there. Now thats how to manage!

I do disagree with hawker driver with this statement..[/quote]hawker driver

Most of the cowboys never make it to the big leagues since they are weeded out and unfortunately work for third rate operations introducing new pilots to their reckless way of thinking.
[/quote]

I know at least 10 pilots off the top of my head that went to the "big leagues" and were very successful in their transition from the bush. They quit the "big leagues" shortly after because of their sheer boredom. That does not make them cowboys because they work for a smaller air service? They enjoy hand flying their machines, and the personal relationships they(we) develop with our passengers. Not all "3rd rate" companies have 3rd rate team members. I turned down a 737 because all my buddies told me how bored they were, and wished they were back on the B200 or DHC3T orDHC6. I know some on this board that could have joined AC or WJA anytime they pleased. They choose not to. Some of us just happen to enjoy the "bush" and wouldnt trade it for the world. Im no cowboy and I know when to say NO. I just chose the bush over the big tin. That makes me a less safe pilot in your eyes? Give your head a shake... some of the best pilots ive ever known, have never flown anything bigger than a Metro or DHC6...and they are also some of the safest I know as well. Dont paint all "3rd rate" companies with the same brush...as some are actually 1st rate, and rather Tier 3 not 3rd rate.

Good show this week. Showed a professional crew doing a professional job.
Fly safe all.

[chesty]

Why could the military not use their own airplanes?

[Canuck223]

Can I ask a stupid question without starting a poopstorm?

With regards to Gord and the PPC, my question is this. Besides bragging rights, with the numbers of C46's in the marketplace, does getting this PPC under his belt do anything for Gord long term?

I am naively assuming that without some ongoing currency on the airplane, the fact that he had a PPC on this type will not mean a heck of a lot later on.

[Commonwealth]

Why could the military not use their own airplanes?

They can use their own equipment and crews, but usually a civilian operator can do the job for less. In this case it could have been an availability issue though.

[azimuthaviation]

The main thing I seen was three lazy pilots with no work ethic and no customer service skills

They could have at least run a comb through their hair at some point.

[tyndall]

Tyndall you and kamikaze are unbelievable!
Those comments clearly came from someone who has never flown professionally.

The decision of the captain to call fatigue and take extra rest was not only professional but was required if he felt the crew needed more rest. That decision showed that he was a true professional and not some sort of cowboy willing to bend the rules and fly fatigued. Just because you are given 8 hours rest means nothing if you have cumulative fatigue.

You are correct. I am not a "professional" pilot. Although I was a driver for many years and have dealt with duty hours, cumulative fatigue, dispatchers who would give you shit for not following orders while safety departments would give you shit if you did. All without the benefit of autopilot. As hard as it is for professional pilots to accept, there is very little difference between them and a professional driver.

Keep in mind that the only thing we have to go on is what was presented in the TV show. I stand by my comments. The length of the contract wasn't long enough to develop cumulative fatigue unless they started already tired, at which point they should have refused to fly the contract altogether. If they didn't think they could handle the job, why did they take it? The info was there for them before they left. To be so fatigued that you need to take a day off and inconvenience the customer, and then go and get in a sim that mimics most of what you did that made you fatigued is ludicrous. To allow the film crew to tape it was asinine. Management said to leave the plane and the pilots disobeyed a direct order while on the ground. That's it, you're off duty, you're done, you don't get to decide to stick around and later claim fatigue from being up all night "working". Maybe its just the editing of the show, but the Electra crews are made to look like they do nothing but make excuses and ignore management. If that's true then its no wonder why they sit on the ramp for months.

There are too many cowboys out there who will fly overweight, tired, or with MX issues just to make the customer and boss happy. If a crew does a real weight and balance, calls fatigue or writes up a maintenance issue and do their jobs as a true professional would and are then called out for being "lazy" or not being "team players" that shows the sad state this industry is in.

It is this mentality that has to change at the beginning of a pilots career. If you start out as a cowboy you will always be one, if you learn to act professionally you will help instill that in the next generation of pilots.
The crew was hired to fly that aircraft safely, the mechanics were hired to keep that aircraft airworthy, and the schedulers were hired to coordinate it all. Just because others drop the ball does not mean the pilots have to sacrifice safety to correct others mistakes.

And don't accept a flight that you know you probably can't complete. If you know the load you will be picking up is likely to be overweight, say something before you leave. Don't leave base with a starter that's iffy. Don't accept a 2 hour YWG-YVR schedule then halfway there call and say you'll be late. If you have a decade of northern experience and know how often shit happens, don't take a tight schedule then play the "true professional" card. Pilots are notorious for getting part way into things before bringing out the rule book. This is unlikely to change as the first goal of any pilot, before any company loyalties, is to get stick time. Flying an hour and then getting stranded on company time is still an hour more than you had yesterday, company and customer be damned.

[tyndall]

Can I ask a stupid question without starting a poopstorm?

With regards to Gord and the PPC, my question is this. Besides bragging rights, with the numbers of C46's in the marketplace, does getting this PPC under his belt do anything for Gord long term?

I am naively assuming that without some ongoing currency on the airplane, the fact that he had a PPC on this type will not mean a heck of a lot later on.

Don't underestimate the power of bragging rights. Just like companies that want a college degree even though one is not needed for the position, its documented proof that he can learn and follow through with something difficult. Anything that sets you apart is beneficial.

[short bus]

As hard as it is for professional pilots to accept, there is very little difference between them and a professional driver.

From someone who's done both, you're totally out to lunch.

[hawker driver]

Dont paint all "3rd rate" companies with the same brush...as some are actually 1st rate, and rather Tier 3 not 3rd rate.

Fly safe all.

That is why I used the terms 3rd rate and not tier 3.

There are cowboys in tier 1 companies just like there are professionals in tier 3 companies. The Comair RJ cowboys who went for a joy ride in the regional jet and paid with thier lives come to mind.
I am sure there are also professionals who are flying Beavers in the bush.
If you enjoy what you fly and your lifestyle whether it is in the bush or the big leagues is a personal choice just like operating you aircraft like a cowboy or professional, be it a Beaver or a regional jet.

[flyinthebug]

Dont paint all "3rd rate" companies with the same brush...as some are actually 1st rate, and rather Tier 3 not 3rd rate.

Fly safe all.

That is why I used the terms 3rd rate and not tier 3.

There are cowboys in tier 1 companies just like there are professionals in tier 3 companies. The Comair RJ cowboys who went for a joy ride in the regional jet and paid with thier lives come to mind.
I am sure there are also professionals who are flying Beavers in the bush.
If you enjoy what you fly and your lifestyle whether it is in the bush or the big leagues is a personal choice just like operating you aircraft like a cowboy or professional, be it a Beaver or a regional jet.

Agreed & well said.

[hawker driver]

You are correct. I am not a "professional" pilot. ......... As hard as it is for professional pilots to accept, there is very little difference between them and a professional driver.

You don't have to have a commercial license or ATPL to operate your aircraft like a professional. You can fly an airplane or drive a truck in a professional manner just like you can in an unprofessional manner.


Keep in mind that the only thing we have to go on is what was presented in the TV show.

Agreed that is why I try to keep my comments to general real word situations


And don't accept a flight that you know you probably can't complete.

That is not the pilots job, there is a scheduler who plans the trips

If you know the load you will be picking up is likely to be overweight, say something before you leave.

The manager who bid the trip should know how much the aircraft can carry and should do their job correctly rather then putting the pilot in the position of having to be the "bad guy" who refused to fly the over weight aircraft.

Don't leave base with a starter that's iffy.

If the company decides not to do preventative maintenance and has the AME signs off the aircraft as green. There is not much the pilot can do since he has a green aircraft. But when it breaks on the road then they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Don't accept a 2 hour YWG-YVR schedule then halfway there call and say you'll be late. If you have a decade of northern experience and know how often shit happens, don't take a tight schedule then play the "true professional" card.

From my experiences pilots don't schedule aircraft, schedulers do. If pilots did, I am sure there wouldn't be any early morning flights. Here again a scheduler should know how long a flight is going to take before he quotes a customer a time.

Pilots are notorious for getting part way into things before bringing out the rule book.

Rules should be followed right from the beginning. This includes management who also know what the regulations are.


This is unlikely to change as the first goal of any pilot, before any company loyalties, is to get stick time.

My goal is safety

Flying an hour and then getting stranded on company time is still an hour more than you had yesterday, company and customer be damned.

My comments are based on my experiences that I have had over the last 25 years in the aviation industry, while you may not agree, they are what they are.

[Justjohn]

As hard as it is for professional pilots to accept, there is very little difference between them and a professional driver.

From someone who's done both, you're totally out to lunch.

From someone who's also done both, you're very close to the truth. There are a lot of similarities between professional driving and professional flying.

Hours of service/duty days
Breakdowns and Equipment failures
Medicals
Walk Around's / Pre-trips
Weight and Balance
Dispatch and getting constantly asked to do a little more
Often on the road / traveling for day's at a time.

For the most part driving pays better ... Sometimes a LOT better.

[Diadem]

You're using an excel spreadsheet to load and balance a 50 ton a/c ?

Wow ....

Why not? Cargo operators like FedEx use computer programs to calculate weight and balance on much larger aircraft every day. It's just addition and multiplication, and a human is far more likely to make an error than a computer.

[shitdisturber]

This trip was to be done the next morning, Management decision. Departed, got into Trenton late at night. I stayed as did everyone to supervise the load and get it right. It may be my own fault, but I created a Excel based weight and balance program from scratch(when Electra came to Buffalo), and I am the F/O and have to deal with it, and take on the loadmaster duties. We had maybe 8 crates we had to fit in the airplane, all strange sizes and widths. They didn't fit straight through the giant door because they were too long. Would you want military personnel to work around your airplane, without supervision, loading awkward pieces in the front door, and have a chance of hitting a prop, or damaging the pressure vessel?

Those military personnel you're referring to are known in the military as Traffic Techs, they have a further subsection that flies on aircraft that are known as Loadmasters. The chances are considerably better that the guys who load your airplane at Buffalo while they "pay their dues" are going to "hit a prop or damage the pressure vessel" with their ancient, used Airforce equipment that was retired by the military before I even joined thirty years ago, than the military guys who do it as their sole occupation. All you had to do was tell them where you wanted it placed and they would have done the rest; and done it right as they'd been taught using the knowledge gained over the decades the military has been transporting everything under the sun all over the world. While I can sympathize with the position you were put in and agree that you'd have been up a creek without a paddle had anything gone wrong in the loading, by your own admission due to fatigue you the amateur loadmaster; would have been far more likely to screw up the loading than the professional "loadies" who weren't dealing with fatigue. Bluntly, you guys screwed the pooch! Hicks may have screwed up by not building in a fudge factor in the contract but to play tourist and leave the airplane sitting on the ground with an indication anomaly was irresponsible!
The other thing that leaves me shaking my head about the whole fiasco; you're sitting on the ground in Greenwood, the maintenance base for the Aurora and leave the desnagging to a guy who seems to be a great AME but is still learning the airplane. Did it never occur to you guys to ask the military for help? Nine'll get you ten there was somebody sitting around the maintenance squadron you could have told you off the top of his head exactly where to look to find the problem. After all the Auroras have only been flying thousands of hours a year since 1980.