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Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #2

Moderators: bandaid, sky's the limit, lilfssister, ahramin, Sulako, just curious, weather, sepia

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pelmet

Post subject: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #2

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:12 pm

Rank 7

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:48 pm
Posts: 645

Today I noticed a thread that was started recently about why so many accident threads are being resurrected. For some reason it was locked out before I could reply.

I resurrected these threads. Why? Over the years I have posted the final report for many accidents on various forums. When an accident happens, frequently there is a thread about it with lots of speculation which eventually dies out with no conclusion.

I myself am reading reports from accidents around the world every day. Usually at breakfast and during my late night snack before bed(in case you wanted to know). I recently finished a large group of reports from Canada and before filing them away in my large Canadian stack, I searched this forum for threads about these particular accidents. Some had already had a link to the final report posted by someone else. Some had never had a thread started or I couldn't find them on the search function. But most were on here and had died out with only speculation.

In order to dispel erronous speculations about these particular accidents, to inform other members about the investigation results and to improve safety by hopefully preventing future accidents, I posted links to the final reports. If a few posters want to make what appear to be comments on a separate thread that hint at their suspicion about my motives....too bad. Safety comes first. In fact, one of the moderators sent me a message of thanks for these report links. I fully intend to post more of this in the future but it may be a while as I am heading back to some foreign reports for a while such as the MD-80 in Venezuela and some older American reports as I have fallen way behind.

Thanks

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B_Boomer_54

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:20 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 82

I too, find it extremely annoying when I read a title (absent a date) , stating that an aircraft has crashed and 40 people are dead . Or that an F18 has crashed into homes , only to find out that this event happened years ago. The titles should be modified ... OR , start a new thread where the title clearly outlines the FINDINGS of a previous dated accident.

You are not alone when it comes to reading about accidents. If you plan on resurrecting a previous thread, it may be wise to start another one with a link to the old followed by your findings. I know a variety of people flying for said companies and reading misleading titles is getting extremely annoying.

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pelmet

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:53 pm

Rank 7

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:48 pm
Posts: 645

Sorry Boomer....I will provide a link to what the moderator posted in that thread. Suggest that you go to minute 1:10 if you don't have time to watch it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk

So I am actually following forum rules. If you are having any difficulty in finding out when a thread started which will likely be very close to when that particular accident happened, approximately one half second can be taken to look to the far right of the thread when it pops up where the date and time of the original post was made. A few seconds if you are not on the first page of the thread.

Or, if you are unhappy with the forum rules or desires of the moderator, one could choose to be constructive like making a suggestion here to the moderator, such as listing the date and time of the first post just like it does for the last post on the page listing all the threads.

Thanks for the input.

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Brewguy

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:32 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:49 pm
Posts: 1081

pelmet wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk

Great video! I've seen it before, and think it should be required watching in order to open an account on most forums.

'Blame' here, if there is any, should be directed to the OP of these various threads for using crappy titles. As has been mentioned, it's very, very easy to look for the date the thread was started. Perhaps AvCanada should have some stricter thread naming rules - but few would follow and would just mean more work for the Mods.

Speaking of the Mods, we've all seen how many locked threads there are when someone starts a new thread on a topic when another already exists. To suggest someone go out of their way to purposely start a new thread rather than updating an existing one seems a bit odd.

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B_Boomer_54

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:03 am

Rank 2

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 82

pelmet wrote:

Nowhere did I say you are breaking forum rules. I clearly stated that it is extremely annoying when old threads are resurrected among new ones absent a modification in the title which CLEARLY highlights to people it is an UPDATE. It is clearly stated in plain english.

Brewguy wrote:

pelmet wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk

This really is a small issue and can be rectified almost immediately. You are also comparing apples and oranges. When two people start a thread within 24 hrs of each other about a 172 going down , it makes sense to delete it. Starting a NEW thread 3 years after the original with an update prefix is not unreasonable. The topic was raised, I stated my opinion, and I suggest you stop looking to be offended at every turn just because someone disagrees with you.

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cdnpilot77

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:42 am

Rank (9)

Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:24 am
Posts: 1393

Boomer, its not unreasonable to start new threads, but I think it's more interesting to read back through all the old posts and speculation and put the findings to it without having to spend an hour searching for the original thread. If pelmet wants to do it, that just makes it easier for the rest of us. More than once I have been surprised by the original dates after reading through the entire thread.

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ahramin

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:21 am

Rank Moderator

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 3463
Location: Vancouver

Kids, threads are like METARs. Check the time and date.

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B_Boomer_54

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:17 am

Rank 2

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 82

cdnpilot77 wrote:

Then perhaps it would be a great idea to link the old thread in the new thread so everyone is on track!

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Doc

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:57 am

Top Poster

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:28 pm
Posts: 8600

B_Boomer_54 wrote:

Got to admit it. When I signed on a couple of days ago and noticed all the accident threads, I nearly crapped! I didn't find it annoying, per say, but I was somewhat gobsmacked! You guys know how accidents piss me off.....damn near had an MI!!

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whistlerboy02

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:35 pm

Rank 1

Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:20 am
Posts: 41

I support Pelmet's idea of posting the update on the origional thread, for the reasons he has stated. Maybe the mods can add "updated" in the title for the guys who cant read the date.
Speaking of updates when are we going to hear about that Hornet that lost an engine during High Alpha pass in Lethbridge?

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Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:23 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:32 pm
Posts: 1351
Location: Around

whistlerboy02 wrote:

I support Pelmet's idea of posting the update on the origional thread, for the reasons he has stated. Maybe the mods can add "updated" in the title for the guys who cant read the date.

More simple, how about posters writing the actual event's date in their title of any new accident/incident thread...
Never saw one doing it. :roll:

Thanks pelmet for taking the time to dig those reports and put them in their adequate locations.

Edited to add:
Actually, yes there is a few here and there who write down the dates in their tittle.

Last edited by TG on Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Prairie Chicken

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:58 pm

Rank 7

Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:12 pm
Posts: 668
Location: Gone sailing

Couldn't have said it better myself, TG!

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B_Boomer_54

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:25 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 82

Doc wrote:

B_Boomer_54 wrote:

We agree! That is pretty much where I was coming from.

whistlerboy02 wrote:

In 4 years time around christmas absent a modified title making everyone shit their pants.

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Brewguy

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:52 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:49 pm
Posts: 1081

B_Boomer_54 wrote:

... In 4 years time around christmas absent a modified title making everyone shit their pants.

Well, not "everyone". Only those who can't be bothered to look at the date of the original post.

Oh, btw Boomer, you appear to be new here and all, but it's generally unnecessary (and somewhat bad form) to quote every post in its entirety before replying to it. Many find that habit far more annoying than resurrecting an old thread with updated info.

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Doc

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:53 pm

Top Poster

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:28 pm
Posts: 8600

B_Boomer_54 wrote:

We agree! That is pretty much where I was coming from.

In 4 years time around christmas absent a modified title making everyone shit their pants.

Hell yes, we agree! When you're right, you're right! No way these posts should have just "arrived on our doorstep" without some kind of warning. I thought we were having a REALLY bad day there.

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MCB

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:42 am

Rank 2

Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:33 am
Posts: 99

Quite sincerely, not to sound like a troll or anything, but does this not seem to anyone else like flogging a dead horse?

I will admit I have not delved into these resurrected threads, but to me this just seems to be an opportunity to bring back an 8 page thread and for everyone to point out the incorrect assumptions, hypotheses, and analysis that occurred on those threads.

I personally think that starting a new thread entitled "FINDINGS Incident report name" and generating conversation there would be far more constructive and positive. I think there is a lot to be learned by reviewing reports - on rainy days I do read them - but I think there are more effective ways to learn and share ideas about them.

As well, it avoids that momentary heart attack before you open the thread and see the original post date. :shock:

Just my two cents.

Michael

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Indanao

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:18 am

Rank 5

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:25 am
Posts: 358

Like this: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=70315 :wink:

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trey kule

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:22 am

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:09 am
Posts: 3133

Actually, I misunderstood Pelmet's motivation. I think this is really a good learning tool.
It also might get some of the wild speculators to settle down a bit when a new accident or incident is posted.

Pelmet , this was a good thing.

Now:

Quote:

B_Boomer_54 wrote:

... In 4 years time around christmas absent a modified title making everyone shit their pants.

Well, not "everyone". Only those who can't be bothered to look at the date of the original post.

Oh, btw Boomer, you appear to be new here and all, but it's generally unnecessary (and somewhat bad form) to quote every post in its entirety before replying to it. Many find that habit far more annoying than resurrecting an old thread with updated info.

I could not agree more...terribly annoying.. :smt040

_________________

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snoopy

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:46 am

Rank 8

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:19 am
Posts: 982
Location: The Dog House

Pelmet,

Thank you for taking the time to bring us up to date on all the TSB reports. I think it is very appropriate to post the TSB with the associated original thread, and it is very thoughtful of you to have taken the time to research whether or not there was a prior thread on the topic before posting the update.

Many of us watch for TSB reports on accidents, particularly those that are of personal interest, however given the length of time it takes for a final report to be published, it is easy to have it slip down on the priority list. Kudo's to you for reminding us!

I think it's important we take the time to read the TSB reports to see what the final conclusions were, and whether there is something to be learned. Where the accident was one of personal interest, it may be useful to some to re-read comments made at the time. I know I find it useful in some cases.

Accidents shouldn't happen, but they do. People shouldn't die as a result, but they do. While it is bad enough that an accident occurred, it would be even worse if we didn't at least learn from the event. Perhaps armed with the knowledge gained from the event, or reminded of a recurring hazard, we might think twice about pushing the envelope - particularly when we've gotten away with it before.

While many of us might not agree with the results of a particular TSB report, and some of the findings may occasionally be wrong, I still think it is awesome that we have a department of the Government tasked with researching accidents and documenting findings. Sometimes, with repeated similar accidents, the TSB is able to influence Transport Canada to take some much needed action. Some of the work done by the TSB can be really impressive, where the situation warrants. Unfortunately TSB is affected by budget restraints the same as any other government entity and they are not always able to give as much attention to some accidents as we might like to see. I'm willing to bet it bothers them just as much as it bothers us.

TG brought up an excellent point. Instead of lambasting Pelmet for updating an existing thread that may be old (not his/her fault - the TSB process takes time... remember?), why not remember this when posting new accident threads and include the date in your post? Set the example you would like to see others follow - be a leader, not a critic. As an aside, when reading ANYTHING on the internet, it is wise to check the date the information was posted, and by whom.

Pelmet, thank you again for the time and energy you took to research and share your information. Please don't let the criticism get you down, and I hope you will continue to share the information you find in your research. Most of the complaining comes from anonymous users who are too lazy to produce any real contribution of substance of their own.

Best Regards,
Kirsten B.

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Doc

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:39 pm

Top Poster

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:28 pm
Posts: 8600

My favourite line.."the TSB process takes time..."
Perhaps a new forum to bring us up to date on TSB findings. If you don't find 3 or 4 "new" accident reports greeting you when you sign in disconcerting, your skin is thicker than mine.
Of course it's good to see what TSB has taken six months to a year to decide what one or two guys should have done in 60 seconds.
It took HOW long to officially admit that a certain Navajo ran out of gas over Winnipeg? And how long to make recommendations that crews carry sufficient fuel in the future?
BUT.......Pelmet. This is a great learning tool, as trey kule said. I'm a wee bit of a "stick in the mud" as far as TSB reports go, because I think they "sanitize" it way too much. They try and "spread" the blame to everyone involved, in a politically motivated attempt to justify all their warm and fuzzy terms (like CFIT etc.) when calling a "spade a spade" might be frightening enough to actually make pilots "think"....instead, TSB simply deflects the blame on others. Believe me.....most accidents happen because the "pilot" does something wrong. It's not his/her "company culture" that caused the airplane to descend into the rocks. It's the pilot. These guys need to learn to say "NO", and pussy footing around the issues by government agencies ain't getting the job done. Otherwise, the "same" accidents would NOT be reoccurring. Think about it. Safe New Year to All.

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snoopy

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:16 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:19 am
Posts: 982
Location: The Dog House

"If you don't find 3 or 4 "new" accident reports greeting you when you sign in disconcerting, your skin is thicker than mine."

I suppose this might be true if one had the tendency to speed read, jump to conclusions and voice an opinion without first carefully examining the facts...

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

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B_Boomer_54

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:52 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 82

Brewguy wrote:

B_Boomer_54 wrote:

... In 4 years time around christmas absent a modified title making everyone shit their pants.

It's amazing when someone really has nothing on someone else or their opinion so they decide to fabricate something completely retarded. For example, you know specifically what I was quoting yet you decided to point out that I do not cut out the unnecessary information within the post....... even though you knew exactly what I was saying. I prefer to not modify a post when I quote someone. This has nothing to do with old vs new, but a matter of preference.

Agree with the regulars or remain illegitimate. So unfortunate.

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Doc

Post subject: Re: Why so many old accident threads are being resurrected #

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:05 am

Top Poster

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:28 pm
Posts: 8600

Aimed at nobody in particular. I wish they would do away with the "quote" feature altogether. The actual need to re-read everything seems to escape me.

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