F-35 looking more like white elephant

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Rockie
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Rockie »

Can you tell me how cost figures that are "looked up" can be factual when not even Lockheed knows how much the airplane's going to cost?

So they're "looked up"...BFD.
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2R
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by 2R »

Maybe we should just fly kites.Not those war kites that the Japanese used against the Portugese in 1638 or those early war kites designed by Cody.
If Canada cannot defend its borders against a realistic threat we might as well fly kites and spend the money on beer.
If we are not allowed to have A-10's,F-22's and weapons that would protect our sovereignty in the north we might as well fly kites while the Russian reassert their claims to the Artic.We can sit back and watch the Corporations and their lackies down south panic as the Chinese and Russians develop the Artic.
We could have nice picnics and kite flying contests while those with real weapons decide what to do with the Artic :wink: :wink:
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Banger
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Banger »

Mostly Harmless wrote: I'm off to pour myself a drink.
You and me, both.

Some people love to argue for argument's sake. Nice post though, I think you hit the nail on the head.
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Banger
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Banger »

AuxBatOn wrote: I don't think there is any point reasoning with you anymore....
...SUPER DRINK-OFF!!!!

(ahem)

With all due respect Rockie, summarizing AuxBatOn's arguments and expertise with a one-liner like "he just wants a shiny new toy," is pretty shallow. It shows bias, and stubbornness. I know for a fact and can state that ABO's opinions are not ones based on selfishness.
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frosti
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by frosti »

Rockie wrote:AuxBatOn I think is just looking forward to a shiny new toy. In his position I might be too.
I highly doubt this considering the majority of CF35 pilots haven't even started college yet.
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SAR_YQQ
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by SAR_YQQ »

AuxBatOn wrote: Read the accident report.
Done - it's still not complete, just the initial "From the Investigator"
The root cause was not having the landing light one at night in a snowstorm.
You're right, the root cause goes further into the training and experience of our drivers. The landing light and use of NVGs only further exacerbated the error chain that was bound to happen to someone.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Colonel Sanders »

US slows down on pricey F-35:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/26 ... hter-jets/
OTTAWA — U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta confirmed Thursday that $488 billion U.S. in Pentagon budget cuts will affect his country’s plans to purchase the troubled F-35 joint strike fighter — which likely will threaten Canada’s timeline for acquiring the stealth fighter as well.
Israel, concerned about the potential for delays in the project, has reportedly joined Australia and the U.S. navy in upgrading its current fleet of fighters.
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Hawkerflyer »

US losing faith?

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/02/ ... thout-one/

Opposition members in the Commons have failed to pry out details from Associated Defence Minister Julian Fantino of any plan the Canadian Forces/DND has to deal with delays in the delivery of the F-35.

Mr. Fantino has stuck to his pre-approved lines, which essentially state that Canada is monitoring the situation but that the F-35 program is proceeding as planned. There are no concerns at the Canadian end about F-35 delays as well as U.S. plans to slow down the arrival/purchase of the planes.

But in the U.S. and other countries that plan to operate the F-35, contingency plans are being put in place for the expected delays in the delivery of the stealth aircraft.

The U.S. Air Force confirmed Thursday it will move ahead with a $2.8 billion upgrade of about 350 of its aging F-16 multi-role fighter planes. According to reports that upgrade will help offset the F-35 delays and the Pentagon plan to slow down purchases of the joint strike fighter.

The idea behind the upgrade is to extend the service life of selected F-16 airframes. Other upgrades include advanced radar, sensors, cockpit display, electronic warfare and communications capabilities, according to Reuter’s news agency.

“We have worked through the implications of the delays in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program,” Air Force Secretary Michael Donley told a meeting of the Air Force Association. “And we have made a further commitment this year to modernize about 350 F-16s in the fleet going forward.”

The upgraded F-16s would receive active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

“Overall, the program will run into the 2020s and have an estimated total cost of $2.8 billion,” a U.S. Air Force spokesperson said in an emailed reply to queries from Reuters about Donley’s remarks.

The Air Force will pick the “best of the fleet” to undergo the modernization for later-model Block 50 and some Block 40 F-16s, the email noted. The program is “scalable” based on the service’s fighter needs.
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2R
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by 2R »

Eventually,those in charge will come round to agree with my un-educated guess that the F-35 is not a war winner.

Canada could make good use of A-10's especially if modified to support SAR.
A limited production run under licence might also provide some work to help support the aviation manufacturing industry and allow for some of the recent grads from engineering schools to modify it for use in the high artic.
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frosti
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by frosti »

2R wrote:un-educated guess

Canada could make good use of A-10's....... to modify it for use in the high artic.
Uneducated is right. :lol: No one is stupid enough to modify aircraft designed for CAS and killing tanks to fly around the frozen arctic. Probably one of the dumbest things I've read here. :lol:

From my educated guess, I'm willing to bet we will be doing another airframe upgrade on our hornets. This should keep them flying until 2025 when all the F35's are operational and combat ready.
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2R
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by 2R »

Many years ago ,while sitting on some wooden boxes at the old Avro plant.Me and some old pals where watching them put up some tents for the "fake roll out " of the first CF-18 at the historic plant that made the Arrow and other secret toys for various military depts.I say fake roll out as no CF-18 where built at the historic plant,but after the fake roll out the Canadian government gave millions of dollars to keep good paying jobs that would support a family in the Toronto area.
One of the guys said that the CF-18 would be the last manned fighter that Canada would makely because the of the developement of missiles that could pull 50 g and attack at mach 9 with good aquisition capabilities.A manned aircraft that was so much slower and had a huge turn would not last long against the next generation of missiles.
Any aircraft can fly over goat herders and camel jockeys with impunity.
The F-35 would not be able to fly up the Volga with impunity.Inspite of the advertised stealth capabilities it is just another target to an upgraded detection system.
Perhaps that is why some of the boffins are working on cloaking sytems that make missile aquisition almost impossible.That technology is what we should be spending our money on not supporting old systems that are probably already redundant against a first world foe.
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frosti
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by frosti »

2R wrote:Many years ago ,while sitting on some wooden boxes at the old Avro plant.Me and some old pals where watching them put up some tents for the "fake roll out " of the first CF-18 at the historic plant that made the Arrow and other secret toys for various military depts.I say fake roll out as no CF-18 where built at the historic plant,but after the fake roll out the Canadian government gave millions of dollars to keep good paying jobs that would support a family in the Toronto area.
One of the guys said that the CF-18 would be the last manned fighter that Canada would makely because the of the developement of missiles that could pull 50 g and attack at mach 9 with good aquisition capabilities.A manned aircraft that was so much slower and had a huge turn would not last long against the next generation of missiles.
Any aircraft can fly over goat herders and camel jockeys with impunity.
The F-35 would not be able to fly up the Volga with impunity.Inspite of the advertised stealth capabilities it is just another target to an upgraded detection system.
Perhaps that is why some of the boffins are working on cloaking sytems that make missile aquisition almost impossible.That technology is what we should be spending our money on not supporting old systems that are probably already redundant against a first world foe.
:rolleyes: :lol:
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trampbike
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by trampbike »

2R wrote: The F-35 would not be able to fly up the Volga with impunity.Inspite of the advertised stealth capabilities it is just another target to an upgraded detection system.
I hope LM hired you for some consulting about R&D and advanced technology applications. If they did not, they don't know what they are missing, so please call them and offer your services.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Colonel Sanders »

How about for free, I tell the gov't to buy the PAK FA and put western avionics in it?

And when they have that project completed, sell the result to any other gov't that wants an F-35?

I know, bad politics. Better to have good politics, and end up with something inferior. Got that.
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trampbike
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by trampbike »

CS, do you have any idea how expensive is the PAK-FA and how much it would cost to change the avionics and operate it?

Can you explain to us how the PAK-FA would be a better choice than the F35 for the role that Canada intends it to have?

Given our total lack of knowledge about complex systems such as DAS, can you povide us with reasons as to why the PAK-FA would outperform the F35?

Given the recently proven combat superiority (let's say since the F15 and F16 are operational) of western fighters against russian jets, what makes you think the PAK-FA kicks ass that much?
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Colonel Sanders »

You're right - it's not even worth doing a comparison, because we all know russian stuff is all junk. This is why whenever a western astronaut wants to go into space, he has to ride a russian rocket.

If we agree with your opinion that all russian stuff is junk, why would we need a good airplane anyways?
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Last edited by Colonel Sanders on Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Beefitarian
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Post by Beefitarian »

Calm down.

NASA will be launching their own rockets as soon as they get some in at Walmart from China. Just like Canada it would be too expensive to build things they want.
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frosti
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by frosti »

Colonel Sanders wrote:You're right - it's not even worth doing a comparison, because we all know russian stuff is all junk. This is why whenever a western astronaut wants to go into space, he has to ride a russian rocket.

If we agree with your opinion that all russian stuff is junk, why would we need a good airplane anyways?
No one said that Russian stuff is junk. Your suggestion of a RCAF PAKFA with western hardware is beyond stupid. Stop trolling.
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2R
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by 2R »

trampbike wrote:
2R wrote: The F-35 would not be able to fly up the Volga with impunity.Inspite of the advertised stealth capabilities it is just another target to an upgraded detection system.
I hope LM hired you for some consulting about R&D and advanced technology applications. If they did not, they don't know what they are missing, so please call them and offer your services.
I do not have the correct union card for working at LM.To work there you need a Phd from Purdue,Emery-Riddle,UND or been a member of the Von Braun rocketeers. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Your suggestion of a RCAF PAKFA with western hardware is beyond stupid
I guess Sukhoi is beyond stupid, too then.

http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php ... iew&id=253
Western avionics, guidance pods and weapons can be fitted optionally
What's the name of your fighter jet manufacturing company, frosti?
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