The long down winded spiral of Instrument Time

[loopa]

Can you or Can you NOT log instrument hours if you are in the IFR environment but flying in VMC conditions? I hear one thing from licensing office in the country and something else from another licensing office. The Prairie region says yes, that IFR in VMC is counted as Simulated Instrument which counts towards the 75 hours of instrument time for the ATPL. Then I call ON and BC and the say otherwise. Which is it? You guys got any clue?

[Colonel Sanders]

You cannot log instrument time in VMC merely because you are filed IFR.

Some people get away with it, but that does not make it so.

[Meatservo]

What if it's VMC but you are filed IFR, but it's night and you can't see a thing out the window?

[Colonel Sanders]

CAR 400.01(1) defines:

"instrument time" means

(a) instrument ground time,

(b) actual instrument flight time, or

(c) simulated instrument flight time;

So. Are you experiencing actual instrument flight time,
or not? My rule of thumb is to log instrument time
whenever I would be unhappy to lose my attitude
indicator when I am filed IFR.

Filed IFR, flying on top of a defined layer in the bright
sunshine, I do not need an attitude indicator, so I
don't log instrument time.

Filed IFR, flying at night with no lights on the horizon,
I would be in deep kimchee if I tried to hand-fly without
an attitude indicator (ask JFK, jr about that) so I log
instrument time.

Use your conscience, and your common sense. And
yes, if you have your ATPL, you can log whatever you
want, we know that already.

[Big Pistons Forever]

CAR 400.01(1) defines:

"instrument time" means

(a) instrument ground time,

(b) actual instrument flight time, or

(c) simulated instrument flight time;

So. Are you experiencing actual instrument flight time,
or not? My rule of thumb is to log instrument time
whenever I would be unhappy to lose my attitude
indicator when I am filed IFR.

Filed IFR, flying on top of a defined layer in the bright
sunshine, I do not need an attitude indicator, so I
don't log instrument time.

Filed IFR, flying at night with no lights on the horizon,
I would be in deep kimchee if I tried to hand-fly without
an attitude indicator (ask JFK, jr about that) so I log
instrument time.

Use your conscience, and your common sense. And
yes, if you have your ATPL, you can log whatever you
want, we know that already.

+1

[Meatservo]

I think it's the definition of "simulated" IFR time that causes the confusion. I suppose if you had a job flying some little plane that you could operate with a CPL you would be well advised to spend your time IN, rather than ABOVE, the clouds if you were after more instrument time. Or carry a pair of "Foggles" around with you.

[Colonel Sanders]

carry a pair of "Foggles"

That would qualify you for (c) (simulated instrument flight time) above.

I might suggest that you don't wear a hood single-pilot, even if you are filed IFR!

[Tim]

CS i do pretty much the same thing as you do, however the CARs dont define what 'simulated instrument time' means, so i would have to say until TC makes the rules a little less ambiguous that it could be interpreted in a broader sense than you or i might apply it. the problem if you ask 5 different people at TC for clarification you're probably gonna get 5 different answers.

[Cat Driver]

I won't comment on logging instrument time, but I will offer a suggestion.

If you plan on doing any night fighter time in Africa you might be wise to wear a hood, foggles are not adequate

[Colonel Sanders]

the CARs dont define what 'simulated instrument time' means

FWIW TP9939E Flight Test Guide - Instrument Rating states:

Other Equipment

The candidate will supply the following publications and ancillary equipment:

a.Where the test is conducted in an aircraft, an effective means of excluding outside visual reference to simulate instrument flight conditions, while maintaining a safe level of visibility for the examiner or safety pilot.

which makes it pretty clear that a hood is used to simulate instrument flight conditions.

Obviously TP9939E is not the CARs, but it's pretty tough to claim you didn't
have to comply with it, to get your instrument rating.

[Cat Driver]

You got any time in night fighters in Africa Colonel

Remember, experience is what separates the real pros from the rest of the group.

[Colonel Sanders]

Africa is a particular cesspool I intend to avoid, ..
More than one acquaintance has had an unpleasant
time there.

[Cat Driver]

Yes, Africa has many downsides.

But Africa remains the most fascinating, interesting place on the planet that I worked in.

Going through my passports and records I flew in twenty six different countries in Africa and did thirteen different rotations there over the years.

I miss it.

[ybwflyguy]

At the TC office in Calgary stuck to the front desk "So you want an ATPL?" - This offers guidelines on getting your log book ready. It specifically states instrument time is "IN OR ABOVE CLOUDS". Pretty clear what their interpretation is here in Calgary. Now obviously they can pull up METARs from your previous flights to see if you were bullshitting (cue log book audit time), but I guess flying over a layer of fog counts as instrument time according to this definition.

I'd also assume if every IFR-filed flight you did is logged as "actual instrument" they'd have something to say.

Having said that, there are still instructors getting ATPLs who often haven't flown many real-IFR hours so I guess the TC guys don't normally look too close.

[Cat Driver]

Once one gets comfortable with flying on instruments with no outside visual clues to the airplanes attitude with the horizon it is far easier than looking outside.....it is all the rules and proceedures that are part of IFR flight that require real work to become proficient at.

[FL280]

I talked to a TC guy in TBay a couple of years ago, all he said was that it had to be IN cloud to be counted as IFR, simply filing it as IFR has nothing to do with it. Guess he's never flown in the north at night.

[Rowdy Burns]

What if it's VMC but you are filed IFR, but it's night and you can't see a thing out the window?

Then it's not really VMC is it?

602.114 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within controlled airspace unless

(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;

[...]

602.115 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within uncontrolled airspace unless

(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;

[...]

602.117 An aircraft may be operated in special VFR flight within a control zone if

(c) the aircraft is operated clear of cloud and with visual reference to the surface at all times

[Cat Driver]

If you are flying at forty thousand feet in a large jet and you decide to disconnect the autopilot and hand fly it for the rest of the trip by looking outside on a clear day with no reference to the inside of the airplane ( I was going to say " instruments " but the last jet I flew didn't actually have " instruments " in it it had a multiple color flat screen device ) how accurate will your flying be?

Would you even want to try?

[loopa]

CAR 400.01(1) defines:

"instrument time" means

(a) instrument ground time,

(b) actual instrument flight time, or

(c) simulated instrument flight time;

So. Are you experiencing actual instrument flight time,
or not? My rule of thumb is to log instrument time
whenever I would be unhappy to lose my attitude
indicator when I am filed IFR.

Filed IFR, flying on top of a defined layer in the bright
sunshine, I do not need an attitude indicator, so I
don't log instrument time.

Filed IFR, flying at night with no lights on the horizon,
I would be in deep kimchee if I tried to hand-fly without
an attitude indicator (ask JFK, jr about that) so I log
instrument time.

Use your conscience, and your common sense. And
yes, if you have your ATPL, you can log whatever you
want, we know that already.

While I hear what you're saying CS, who's to say that the flight you flew wasn't spent inside the flight deck scanning your instruments? Where I work the PF typically lowers the seat to be completely inside while the PNF remains higher to be outside unless it is straight IMC in which case both are inside. So as the PF, why couldn't one log "simulated instrument" if you are flying off the instruments regardless of the meteorological condition?

Cheers!

[Meatservo]

Frankly, I'm not too bothered about it. I don't really keep track of much anymore, except the things that are required for currency. But if I was being punctilious about logging "IFR" time, I don't think I'd be bothered to bring a stopwatch with me so I could press the button on it the minute I entered cloud, and release it whenever I popped out. Chances are a guy has filed IFR because at least part of the flight is going to take place in controlled airspace where flight with reference to the surface of the earth will not be possible. Also, the regulation quoted above says "Visual reference to the surface", therefore, when in VMC above the clouds, you are NOT VFR. (I suppose Transport Canada could include a definition of "Surface" which included the top of a layer of clouds if they wanted to be specific, but they don't). I figure if Transport Canada is going to be at turns ridiculously concerned with the letter of the law on one hand, and then incredibly vague on the other, the least we can do is behave the same way, that is, to nit-pick like I just did with regard to the definition of "The Surface", and then log the whole damn flight as "IFR" since the point of "IFR" is being able to safely enter instrument conditions via an approved procedure and then exit the conditions again via an approved procedure. Who cares if you could see out the window during the intervening period. Really, most pilots in the intervening period are conducting the flight with reference to a good book or the back of their eyelids because they have an autopilot, or it's not their leg to fly. If you are to use your "conscience", like the Colonel advises (which I wholeheartedly agree with: conscientious behaviour is one of the cornerstones of our society, inconveniently for some).., then I think you should log IFR time any time you are doing something that would be illegal to do if you didn't have an instrument rating. (But legal WITH one, I hasten to add... popping into the clouds in your Beaver on the way to a lake and logging those minutes as instrument time is cheating too!)

[justwork]

Can you or Can you NOT log instrument hours if you are in the IFR environment but flying in VMC conditions? I hear one thing from licensing office in the country and something else from another licensing office. The Prairie region says yes, that IFR in VMC is counted as Simulated Instrument which counts towards the 75 hours of instrument time for the ATPL. Then I call ON and BC and the say otherwise. Which is it? You guys got any clue?

I would say that anytime you're filed IFR and using instruments to navigate then it is safe to log instrument time regardless if you're in VMC conditions or not. If you're in a training environment and simulated IFR then it's safe to log it. Screaming VFR conditions, but you're at FL250... Well I logged it as IFR and never heard anything about it. You start flying with reference to the horizon and before you know it you're +- a couple hundred feet and a mile off track.

[Liquid Charlie]

I can remember many years ago when one of the f/o's goes into wpg to get their ATP and he had his time questioned because he had logged 8 hours of instrument time in one day - I had signed and certified his book so I got involved - since it was just within a few months I told the TC guy to pull the wx records for that day -- NWO was covered with a low cloud deck topped topped above fl 200 -- his problem -- he didn't think anyone could fly 8 hours of IMC in one day -- I know we did -- I was there -- so it all depends on who is looking at your book and decides to pick pepper out of fly shit

Oh ya -- no stinking autopilot -- lmfaoooooooo

[old_man]

You start flying with reference to the horizon and before you know it you're +- a couple hundred feet and a mile off track.

But isn't that also the case with flying VFR. If you don't cross check your altimeter it will be +/- a couple hundred as well?

Also, I think people tend to forget that even if they file IFR and operate in VMC that they, depending on what airspace they are in, can be responsible for their own separation from VFR traffic. That means you have to look out the window. (Thus the suggestion of wearing a hood if you are the only one on board being frowned upon)

[TopperHarley]

I logged only the time in IMC. I would not log instrument time in VMC just because you're filed IFR. If you need to fly with reference to your instruments, then you should be logging it as such.

It only matters when it comes time to applying for your ATPL, and theoretically, once you have the time for it, you should have the necessary instrument time. Personally I stopped logging instrument time years ago.

[Big Pistons Forever]

For lack of any better direction I use the "can't see the ground" test. If I am in cloud or on top of a solid deck on an IFR plan then it is logged. For any given flight I make a off the top of my head guess at what percentage of the flight fit the test take that percentage of the air time. On Most flights it will be considerably less than the total air time. In any case chief pilots are not dumb. If they see a resume with 1000 hours TT and say 600 presented as "instrument" time they are going to call BS and bin it. If you are pursuing a commercial flying career better to understate instrument time, it will increase your credibility.