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Independence
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Anyone had experience hauling fuel drums in a Cherokee 6? Looks like 3 drums is possible on short legs with the 260 hp model. Is that possible physically while still staying within cg limits?
Any experience with vg's on the Cherokee 6? Do they really reduce the take-off roll?


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Liquid Charlie
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:22 pm 
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I assume you are referring to 405L drums - why would you want to even think of that - beat the crap out of the airplane - likely exceed floor loading let alone the hazmat issues -- if it's for personal fuel cashing -- plastic in 22L - - a question asked without enough information


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FlyGy
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Liquid Charlie wrote:
I assume you are referring to 405L drums - why would you want to even think of that - beat the crap out of the airplane - likely exceed floor loading let alone the hazmat issues -- if it's for personal fuel cashing -- plastic in 22L - - a question asked without enough information


Not to mention the weight of 3 full drums that size is over 1900 pounds, full tanks and a pilot, you'd be lucky that the landing gear doesn't collapse on the ramp. :)


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Northern Flyer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:06 pm 
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FlyGy wrote:
Liquid Charlie wrote:
I assume you are referring to 405L drums - why would you want to even think of that - beat the crap out of the airplane - likely exceed floor loading let alone the hazmat issues -- if it's for personal fuel cashing -- plastic in 22L - - a question asked without enough information


Not to mention the weight of 3 full drums that size is over 1900 pounds, full tanks and a pilot, you'd be lucky that the landing gear doesn't collapse on the ramp. :)


I have never seen a 405 L drum. And I have never flown a Cherokee 6. I however used to fly two 205 L drums in a 185. It was a real PITA. I would put two empty drums in the plane, and pump them full of fuel, put the bungs on and haul them to the lake I was hauling into. There would be two empty drums waiting there. You had to pump the fuel out of the drums in the aircraft into the two empties on the dock. Now throw the two emptied drums out of the plane onto the dock for the next trip.

3 drums of avgas would run about 1150lbs.


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Bede
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:52 pm 
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I've done 3 drums in a C206 and C207.

I've never heard of a 405l drum. Neither has google.


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Independence
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:47 pm 
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As Northern Flyer said 3 drums of gas in thinwall drums would be in the 1150 pounds range, so it would be below max t/o weight. The question is can it be kept within c. of g. limits. Unlike the Cessna there is the spar sticking out of the floor so I doubt a drum could go up by the pilot so the next question is, is there enough room in the "6" to stand up drums so you can get them side by side and hence keep the weight forward?


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FlyGy
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:39 pm 
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Northern Flyer wrote:

I have never seen a 405 L drum.


Neither have I. 45 gal is the biggest i've seen. I responded too early in the morning for that one, didn't catch the barrel size properly.


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sheephunter
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:51 am 
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Hauled lots with a PA32-300 version but it was quite a while ago and if I recall correctly, I would haul two 205 ltr drums, full fuel in the wings (54 US) which I think my useful was slightly over 1200 lbs??. I siphoned off what I didn't need out of the wings and go for another load. That's the nice thing about low wing. Was hauling off decent strips into dirt strips loaded and out light. The drums will not stand up. I also cut out a 3/4" plywood floor to make the entire back flat and wedges for the drum to keep them from rolling as well more effective tie down locations but to be honest, if you need very much fuel moved, it isn't a very effective method to move a lot of fuel in a hurry. To move 6-8 drums isn't a big deal. The aircraft is actually nice to load, even by yourself. If you have not flown this plane at gross and/or high altitude and in the heat, pay attention. Even though the numbers are very similar to a 206, they sure don't fly the same. The number that made me try was the price tag of a Cherokee Six compared to a C206. Also had bigger tires and the larger nose fork and tire. They do a lot of hauling with these on the AK Peninsula. That's where I got the idea to try it from. Get up early and fly before it gets too hot.


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Doc
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:17 am 
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Two words. Gerry Cans. Easier to handle. You can tailor your weight better. Way easier on the airplane. Drums? In a 6? Why?


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DHCdriver
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:23 am 
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Doc wrote:
Drums? In a 6? Why?


That's what I'm thinking, WHY? DHC


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Redneck_pilot86
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:24 am 
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There is also a 10G keg for fuel that would be easier than 45G. But again, why?


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Independence
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:11 am 
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Why drums? Because that's what the customers use. Try telling the helicopter pilot that you have left his 180 gerry cans beside the strip or tell the driller he will just have to move his fuel line to a new gerry can every 27 minutes.
I figured 2 would be no problem, just though someone may have found a creative way to do 3.


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chesty
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:24 pm 
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If you need the advice from avcanada on this, you probably have no business flying fuel!


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Cough Syrup
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:26 pm 
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:roll:


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sheephunter
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:28 pm 
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I didn't have that many jerry cans nor the manpower to guard every cache so bears didn't eat them. I think your usefull load will dictate what you will be carrying. I just don't have that exact number in front of me (1200ish??) I'm going back 10 or 11 years. And why is it harder on the six to haul drums than a beaver on floats? It's an airplane with a nice big cargo door that isn't much more than 20" off the ground and I could get two drums in there and strapped down easier than one 450 pound person. Jut make sure your bungs aren't leaking before you get them in there. At half the purchase price of a 206 I thought it was worth the try and until the bear went through it, everything was fine. I'm sure a more experienced pilot than I was at the time would have been even easier on it. If money never came into the equation, I'd opt for the 206.
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chesty
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:23 pm 
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A beaver was built for hauling drums a cherokee was not.


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Beefitarian
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:43 am 
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chesty wrote:
A beaver was built for hauling drums a cherokee was not.

Is the beaver about the same price as a 206?


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ragbagflyer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:17 am 
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Never stepped into a Cherokee 6, and by the looks of it not many here have worked them commercially. Is this aircraft already operating commercially? If you have access to it go find three drums and see what's involved in fitting them into the cabin. Figuring out the C.G should be a piece of cake once you get them in place. See if you can find the limitations for pounds/sq foot of floor space. I imagine the only time it would be an issue is when you are moving the drums (have them lifted with all the weight on one rounded edge). I have no idea what the floor of the 6 is like - is it flat, does it have rails, tie downs etc. If it's flimsy see about replacing it with aluminum checker plate. If you can stay within C.G. Remember that diesel is quite a bit heavier than gas, and antifreeze is WAY heavier. If it fits make sure the tie downs are bomber. Don't listen to the naysayers! There's a lot of planes flying around in environments they were not designed for. If you make it work post some pics! If three won't fit perhaps 2 and a couple of 10 gallon kegs will do the trick. If the dual controls are removed (always a good idea with cargo), you can often slide a 10 keg into the right seat foot well, and it helps with your C.G.

As to the vg's, I'm sure they will help and I guarantee they won't hurt.


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Doc
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:16 am 
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Simply put, 45 gallon drums will rip the shit out of your airplane. I'd let the contract go and save the airplane. Otherwise every dollar you make will be used to repair the damage. Sub-charter.


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Independence
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:37 am 
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It is the pilots not the drums that do the damage. A pilot who treats their machine with respect and uses a freight floor can haul drums with minimal damage. I see planes around the field here that have been hauling drums (in addition to every other type of freight) for over 20 years and are just fine.
I find moving drills the most damaging.


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SheriffPatGarrett
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:34 am 
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Indy, finally someone not speaking through his hat!

This is a wide lil airplane, almost as much as a Beaver, much wider than a cessna, one drum fit well next to the pilot.
Cabin not very high but high enough...wide, low entry door...four old pallets stacked
just outside and a couple of planks
to roll them in...when inside, flip them over your plywood subfloor, one by the pilot
and two in a row behind. Now, just figure tie downs for the nets and the drums.

The Cherokee six WAS designed to be also a freighter!
What do you think the wide cargo door in the back is for?

A highly profitable airplane.
Image
If you can seat three abreast comfortably, room is not a problem.
Pipers are very durable, if no where as much fun to fly as a Cessna or DeHav.


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Independence
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:47 am 
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Thanks Sheriff, that is the answer I was hoping for. It won`t be the primary mission but it is nice to know it can go and help our bigger airplanes with a fuel move.


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sheephunter
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Exactly, I put 300 hrs alone on a Cherokee one season hauling nothing but frieght and primarily fuel, propane and lumber and it is one of the easiest planes there is to load drums by yourself or unload. Meaning you don't need extra weight in the plane to get a job done. The key is it does need the subfloor as it is not flat/level and you may as well keep that nice carpet looking good. With just a little wee bit off care you will not even know you've been hauling drums. You will need your AME to put "better" tie down points and you're good to go. If I recall, the seats go in and out easier/quicker than my C180. Also, you have the storage in the nose for up to 200Lbs? so that was where I kept my emergency stuff and refueling gear so I knew it was always with me. It was before I had digital so I'm trying to find photos of it loaded. I just wish my memory was better. But what is accurate is my logbook which has flight after flight indicating "drums". Also found 3400 - 1788 = 1612 useful. So weight on short hauls is definitely not the problem. I'll keep looking as I wouldn't be surprised I don't find a W&B sheet which would remind me exactly how I loaded and what. For the non-beleivers, yes they are way nicer aircraft for going from paved airstrip to paved airstrip but as an owner operator, they make money hauling and are used extensively on the Alaskan Peninsula for a lot of reasons other than being profitable.


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Independence
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Thanks Sheephunter. I hope the insurance covered your "6" and didn't consider the bear an 'act of god'.


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sheephunter
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Unfortunately not covered. Mostly all cosmetic. Seats were destroyed, front windshield, back door, head liner and a few bites here and there. Transponder cable was chewed but otherwise none of the panel, controls were damaged. The bear made it right the tail of the plane after he ripped out the hat rack. Pretty much looked like a bomb had went off. Why do I remember this event so well?


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