Looks like I have expectations that are naive in this subject.
Seems like personal decision making and TCCA's oversight are doing a fine job in aviation and we do not need anything else.
I guess those old companies like Wapiti, Keystone and Sonic Blue to name a few were just unusual blips in the industry and these kind of operators no longer exist.
College of Pilots
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
First off, I kind of like a high horse. Great view from up here. In medieval times, knights used to ride "high" on "war horses", basically draft/cool blood horses...some police forced even use them today. They're very level headed and are calm in crowds.126.75 wrote:Doc, with respect, you are the one the is coming across on a high horse. The "Silent" majority seems to want some sort of group to be a part of with the goal of making aviation better.
How about the guy that feels pressured into flying a broken airplane, or right down snags on a Microsoft Word document so they don't ground their King Air. This guy may be "spineless" or what ever else you want to call him but the fact of the matter is: there are people in this industry who will be submissive to their boss and fly the broken airplane, or fly VFR to avoid the "hassle" of IFR
If this group could liaison with TC perhaps; you won't have to listen to someone bragging about "flying in ice" to see what it's all about, you won't have to play chicken with Caravans in IMC going into Red Lake or any other issue you have.
Have you actually spoken to the "silent" majority? I haven't. Perhaps they have an email addy we could use to contact them?
Your second paragraph addresses WORKING CONDITIONS. The "college" has plainly stated that this is a union matter. If you don't have a union....pity.
How is a "college" going to "liaison" with TC? Enforcement of CARS is, and always will be the responsibility of TC. I can't see that ever changing. Can you? Really? Or in a dream?
Re: College of Pilots
I come up with "silent" majority based on informal talks I have had with many people. Many people seem interested in different degrees to such an idea. More people I talk to are supportive of the idea than not.
If we have a group were pilots can turn to and say things like; my boss puts an extra 500 lbs in on every flight, my boss encourages us to fly with VFR reserves when the clouds are in the trees or anything like that they could then note complaints from the pilots and have it sent up to TC for investigation. They would not be doing their duty if they are aware and it is noted that they are away and imagine if there was an accident? I am sure TC would not want that type of liability. Now they turn a blind eye. If they had facts sent to them via registered mail and then an airplane went off the end of the runway - perhaps it might light a fire under their ass.
Perhaps in addition the college could screen for drug usage. Would be interesting to see if everyone left their weed back in high school or not. I personally would not want to get in an airplane of someone who has "toked" up the night before. Whether it impairs him or not it definitely is a good indicator of professional conduct and how seriously they take the job.
If we have a group were pilots can turn to and say things like; my boss puts an extra 500 lbs in on every flight, my boss encourages us to fly with VFR reserves when the clouds are in the trees or anything like that they could then note complaints from the pilots and have it sent up to TC for investigation. They would not be doing their duty if they are aware and it is noted that they are away and imagine if there was an accident? I am sure TC would not want that type of liability. Now they turn a blind eye. If they had facts sent to them via registered mail and then an airplane went off the end of the runway - perhaps it might light a fire under their ass.
Perhaps in addition the college could screen for drug usage. Would be interesting to see if everyone left their weed back in high school or not. I personally would not want to get in an airplane of someone who has "toked" up the night before. Whether it impairs him or not it definitely is a good indicator of professional conduct and how seriously they take the job.
Re: College of Pilots
But a college will do better? A college will never ever get any form of enforcement powers. The problem is the lack of oversight by the already ruling authority. If TC doesn't have enough money and manpower to do their job now, how can a loose knit college do any better? And by all means I'd love to see conditions improve. I'm wanting to leave my current career to be a commercial pilot starting at the very bottom. If anyone, it's the people just staring out that need a helping hand but i'm not going to put money into a college that has no legal power. And yeah it's scary to see companies like the ones you mentioned operating. But how will a college keep similar companies from happening again if the government can't do it? And if a pilot, member of the college makes a complaint, about the operator, what will happen? He'll probably lose his job, only to be replaced by another out of work pilot who is trying to make ends meet. Until TC is a serious threat, doing regular audits to operators who cut corners (i'm talking major financial penalties, criminal penalties and or removing their OC), we are fighting an uphill battle. How about we write our MP to give more funding to TC, increase penalties, and and increase random/regular audit frequencies of questionable operators instead of writing on this forum? I'd think the public would be on our side on this one.Cat Driver wrote:Looks like I have expectations that are naive in this subject.
Seems like personal decision making and TCCA's oversight are doing a fine job in aviation and we do not need anything else.
I guess those old companies like Wapiti, Keystone and Sonic Blue to name a few were just unusual blips in the industry and these kind of operators no longer exist.
Re: College of Pilots
"How about we write our MP to give more funding to TC, increase penalties, and and increase random/regular audit frequencies of questionable operators instead of writing on this forum? I'd think the public would be on our side on this one."
Now there's a good suggestion! Not only write to the respective MP, but recruit at least 5 friends or family to do the same and copy the media on each letter.
Kirsten B.
Now there's a good suggestion! Not only write to the respective MP, but recruit at least 5 friends or family to do the same and copy the media on each letter.
Kirsten B.
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
Well lets examine this from the standpoint of operations managers and chief pilots who belong to this " college " their duty is to the safe operation of the company that TCCA approved them for.And yeah it's scary to see companies like the ones you mentioned operating. But how will a college keep similar companies from happening again if the government can't do it? And if a pilot, member of the college makes a complaint, about the operator, what will happen? He'll probably lose his job, only to be replaced by another out of work pilot who is trying to make ends meet.
A given company is intimidating their pilots to fly outside of the regulations and also holds the threat of loss of job if the Ops manager / chief pilot stands up to the company and backs up their pilots as the law requires them to.
They inform the college of their situation and the college digs into the allegations and finds that the company in fact is trying to operate outside of the law.
If the company goes ahead and wrongfully fires one of their managers would it not stand to reason the college now has some power to help change the industry........because of the size of their membership and the fact that the college directors really do know what they are doing......
........would you like to go up against Doc if you were trying to screw with the law and he had some power to intervene and help force compliance with the law?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
The issue in this thread, that of forming a College, has to be considered against the backdrop of the aviation industry itself.
The major part of the 703 fixed wing industry is dysfunctional in terms of professional management and its structure. Its managers are almost entirely pilots. It is worth saying that no other business anywhere employs pilots as managers. In business terms, senior managers are those with technical skills, normally the prime skills for front line managers. They are not people with the two most important skills of top level managers, those being conceptual skills and planning skills. Many of them also lack the most important mid level manager skill, that of human relations.
Structurally the 703 fixed wing industry is a scattered, highly disorganized group of marginal operations struggling to survive. Some within that have a barely functional system of accounting and almost no financial management, or financial management that operates on the basis of wrong assumptions about financial management. All of this leads to desperation and bottom of the barrel approaches to providing service. With pilot supply exceeding demand at this level, and human relations skills either low or non existent in management, pilots are looking at very poor compensation for their work.
Small pilot managed operations are very vulnerable to larger, better financed new entrants coming into their territories with much better economies of scale across multiple base, centrally administered, operations. This is well advanced in rotary operations, and management is much more professional in those operations. The reason for that is that there is much greater capital required, more is at stake, and bad management is very costly compared to bad management in fixed wing. Hence the demand from shareholders for better professional managers.
One statistic that would be very interesting to have would be the cost of statutory managers per flight hour in individual companies across the industry. I am sure that statistic will demonstrate that maintaining these positions for a three or four aircraft fleet is very cost ineffective compared to what it is in companies such as Borek or Sunwest, for instance.
I don't think that the College is going to make any difference in the lives of pilots working in these small inefficient operations. For the larger, more professionally managed operators however, I think that there would be an advantage to working together with the College, in the event that the College produces a higher standard of pilot and the operator is willing to pay for that higher standard. I do think that if the College were to gain a foothold as a certifier of quality in the industry, it would be the end of many of the smaller operators whose management either didn't want to differentiate their service on quality, or didn't have the management skills to do so.
I think that for many people the issue with the College that Tom has to clarify in the next day or so is this...are those behind the scenes, as Doc so rightly comments on, going to publicly announce that the College now and forever abandons any pretence of replacing TC as the licencing authority, or of having some authority to stop people flying for the very vague reason of having committed a "faux pas", which could mean that the College proposes to examine personal characteristics beyond flying. Would pilots prior to entry to the college have to take a urine test, have a credit and criminal record check, or believe in God? These are all things that would be quite effective in reducing the supply of pilots, but would have nothing whatever to do with the issue of whether the candidate was a good pilot or not.
If that isn't clearly denied by Tom in the next two days, then I think this idea should die.
The major part of the 703 fixed wing industry is dysfunctional in terms of professional management and its structure. Its managers are almost entirely pilots. It is worth saying that no other business anywhere employs pilots as managers. In business terms, senior managers are those with technical skills, normally the prime skills for front line managers. They are not people with the two most important skills of top level managers, those being conceptual skills and planning skills. Many of them also lack the most important mid level manager skill, that of human relations.
Structurally the 703 fixed wing industry is a scattered, highly disorganized group of marginal operations struggling to survive. Some within that have a barely functional system of accounting and almost no financial management, or financial management that operates on the basis of wrong assumptions about financial management. All of this leads to desperation and bottom of the barrel approaches to providing service. With pilot supply exceeding demand at this level, and human relations skills either low or non existent in management, pilots are looking at very poor compensation for their work.
Small pilot managed operations are very vulnerable to larger, better financed new entrants coming into their territories with much better economies of scale across multiple base, centrally administered, operations. This is well advanced in rotary operations, and management is much more professional in those operations. The reason for that is that there is much greater capital required, more is at stake, and bad management is very costly compared to bad management in fixed wing. Hence the demand from shareholders for better professional managers.
One statistic that would be very interesting to have would be the cost of statutory managers per flight hour in individual companies across the industry. I am sure that statistic will demonstrate that maintaining these positions for a three or four aircraft fleet is very cost ineffective compared to what it is in companies such as Borek or Sunwest, for instance.
I don't think that the College is going to make any difference in the lives of pilots working in these small inefficient operations. For the larger, more professionally managed operators however, I think that there would be an advantage to working together with the College, in the event that the College produces a higher standard of pilot and the operator is willing to pay for that higher standard. I do think that if the College were to gain a foothold as a certifier of quality in the industry, it would be the end of many of the smaller operators whose management either didn't want to differentiate their service on quality, or didn't have the management skills to do so.
I think that for many people the issue with the College that Tom has to clarify in the next day or so is this...are those behind the scenes, as Doc so rightly comments on, going to publicly announce that the College now and forever abandons any pretence of replacing TC as the licencing authority, or of having some authority to stop people flying for the very vague reason of having committed a "faux pas", which could mean that the College proposes to examine personal characteristics beyond flying. Would pilots prior to entry to the college have to take a urine test, have a credit and criminal record check, or believe in God? These are all things that would be quite effective in reducing the supply of pilots, but would have nothing whatever to do with the issue of whether the candidate was a good pilot or not.
If that isn't clearly denied by Tom in the next two days, then I think this idea should die.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
Re: College of Pilots
Cat, the most direct, most effective approach from those not in ownership positions in the industry to improve those things the College says it will improve is to focus on the roles of the ops managers, CP's, and maintenance managers/DOMs. There is nothing the College proposes to do that could not be done by empowering these statutory positions with real power. Ideally that can be done by TC, but it can also be done by the legal system and by market forces. I do think this needs an association of people in these positions, and a certification beyond TC's, all voluntary, but carrying sufficient weight in market opinion that there will be a preference for operators that employ such certified managers. I can't see it being a College right now. Let's not forget the College is a college of pilots, not operations managers or CPs or DOMs.Cat Driver wrote:Well lets examine this from the standpoint of operations managers and chief pilots who belong to this " college " their duty is to the safe operation of the company that TCCA approved them for.And yeah it's scary to see companies like the ones you mentioned operating. But how will a college keep similar companies from happening again if the government can't do it? And if a pilot, member of the college makes a complaint, about the operator, what will happen? He'll probably lose his job, only to be replaced by another out of work pilot who is trying to make ends meet.
A given company is intimidating their pilots to fly outside of the regulations and also holds the threat of loss of job if the Ops manager / chief pilot stands up to the company and backs up their pilots as the law requires them to.
They inform the college of their situation and the college digs into the allegations and finds that the company in fact is trying to operate outside of the law.
If the company goes ahead and wrongfully fires one of their managers would it not stand to reason the college now has some power to help change the industry........because of the size of their membership and the fact that the college directors really do know what they are doing......
........would you like to go up against Doc if you were trying to screw with the law and he had some power to intervene and help force compliance with the law?
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
Once again, in over half a century of working in this industry I have not seen the above improve the way the industry works.Ideally that can be done by TC, but it can also be done by the legal system and by market forces.
In fact TCCA has moved even further away from improving the industry, unless SMS is now working at the 703/704 level of aviation and I am just out of touch with reality.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
There are, what? 23000 CPL's of higher in the country? You've talked to more than half? That's a majority BTW. "Many people seem interested..." is NOT a majority!126.75 wrote:I come up with "silent" majority based on informal talks I have had with many people. Many people seem interested in different degrees to such an idea. More people I talk to are supportive of the idea than not.
If we have a group were pilots can turn to and say things like; my boss puts an extra 500 lbs in on every flight, my boss encourages us to fly with VFR reserves when the clouds are in the trees or anything like that they could then note complaints from the pilots and have it sent up to TC for investigation. They would not be doing their duty if they are aware and it is noted that they are away and imagine if there was an accident? I am sure TC would not want that type of liability. Now they turn a blind eye. If they had facts sent to them via registered mail and then an airplane went off the end of the runway - perhaps it might light a fire under their ass.
Perhaps in addition the college could screen for drug usage. Would be interesting to see if everyone left their weed back in high school or not. I personally would not want to get in an airplane of someone who has "toked" up the night before. Whether it impairs him or not it definitely is a good indicator of professional conduct and how seriously they take the job.
"my Boss puts an extra 500 pounds in on every flight......" I say again: WORKING CONDITIONS! The pilot is breaking the law, BTW. Not the Boss? If a pilot is incapable of saying "NO", how is his paying dues to a "college" going to make him any braver?
A College can "screen for drug usage......" What are YOU on? Do you find many pilots "toked up from the night before...? I have NEVER come across that. I've been a CPL or higher since 1969!!!! While we're on "toked up"......C'MON MAN!
Re: College of Pilots
126.75 wrote:Perhaps in addition the college could screen for drug usage. Would be interesting to see if everyone left their weed back in high school or not. I personally would not want to get in an airplane of someone who has "toked" up the night before. Whether it impairs him or not it definitely is a good indicator of professional conduct and how seriously they take the job.
Really?!? You seriously just said that?? WOW
You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
I am in the process of communicating directly with Tom and the other people who are involved with the college idea.
It will take some time for me to find out if I have anything that could help the industry.
Let's put it in it's most simple basic terms.
If I can be part of a process that improves the working conditions for the 703/704 pilots and help bring the industry into compliance with the rules thereby saving lives, both literally and career wise and every operator who uses these people and intimidates them into flying outside the rules go out of business then I will die in peace knowing I used the lessons aviation taught me to help others.
I would like to think I survived to be able to give back.
. E.
It will take some time for me to find out if I have anything that could help the industry.
Let's put it in it's most simple basic terms.
If I can be part of a process that improves the working conditions for the 703/704 pilots and help bring the industry into compliance with the rules thereby saving lives, both literally and career wise and every operator who uses these people and intimidates them into flying outside the rules go out of business then I will die in peace knowing I used the lessons aviation taught me to help others.
I would like to think I survived to be able to give back.
. E.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
What about being part of a process which proposes to demand samples of bodily fluids to see if someone "...left their weed back in high school"? You going to be part of that, .?Cat Driver wrote:I am in the process of communicating directly with Tom and the other people who are involved with the college idea.
It will take some time for me to find out if I have anything that could help the industry.
Let's put it in it's most simple basic terms.
If I can be part of a process that improves the working conditions for the 703/704 pilots and help bring the industry into compliance with the rules thereby saving lives, both literally and career wise and every operator who uses these people and intimidates them into flying outside the rules go out of business then I will die in peace knowing I used the lessons aviation taught me to help others.
I would like to think I survived to be able to give back.
. E.
I don't smoke weed, and of course I don't advocate that anybody come on duty impaired in any way by any thing. I personally don't think that flying and being a weed user on anything but a most casual basis is a good idea. But not doing that is the same as complying with the booze rules, and I don't see this 126.7 whatever guy talking about breathalyzers to see if pilots left their booze back in high school. Being impaired for flight duty is against the regs. That is primarily a TC enforcement issue, but ok, I can see where the College might take an issue with that. Fair enough. But finding out if someone has left their weed back in high school, and snooping into people's private lives for behaviour that has nothing to do with an avaition prohibition, and doing so on the basis of upholding "professionalism" by snooping into someone pee is just, well, that's it.
Tom, if this 126 speaks for the College, say so and say goodbye. If not, say so.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
Cncpc your I find your questions to be bordering on the absurd and probably not worth replying to.
But for your enlightenment I wish to point out that I had one of the most successful careers anyone in aviation could ever hope to have.
I worked for Companies most pilots would never even get near employment wise......therefore I am insulted by your mindset.
Don't bother saying anymore as I will not respond further to such ignorance.
. E.
But for your enlightenment I wish to point out that I had one of the most successful careers anyone in aviation could ever hope to have.
I worked for Companies most pilots would never even get near employment wise......therefore I am insulted by your mindset.
Don't bother saying anymore as I will not respond further to such ignorance.
. E.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
That wasn't aimed at you mate. Relax. It was a question from 126.7......in my general direction. We're having a wee debate.Cat Driver wrote:Cncpc your I find your questions to be bordering on the absurd and probably not worth replying to.
But for your enlightenment I wish to point out that I had one of the most successful careers anyone in aviation could ever hope to have.
I worked for Companies most pilots would never even get near employment wise......therefore I am insulted by your mindset.
Don't bother saying anymore as I will not respond further to such ignorance.
. E.
Take care
Re: College of Pilots
The College of Pilots, version 1, killed dead by one paragraph by someone who probably thinks "Gee, I know quite a few pilots smoke pot. I know they don't smoke and fly, or fly impaired, but what the heck. If we can somehow kill off these people's jobs by getting a College to equate professionalism with piss tests, then maybe I can get a job".confuzed wrote:126.75 wrote:Perhaps in addition the college could screen for drug usage. Would be interesting to see if everyone left their weed back in high school or not. I personally would not want to get in an airplane of someone who has "toked" up the night before. Whether it impairs him or not it definitely is a good indicator of professional conduct and how seriously they take the job.
Really?!? You seriously just said that?? WOW
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
How's things going Doc?
I am on a four month holiday at present and as soon as it gets cold here I'm heading south in the motor home.
I am on a four month holiday at present and as soon as it gets cold here I'm heading south in the motor home.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Beefitarian
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Re: College of Pilots
I'm not sure what you're in a high dither about here, but this had nothing to do with you. It had to do with someone up above making a proposal that would kill dead this College idea, a proposal for piss tests for professionalism. I simply asked you if you were on board with that.Cat Driver wrote:Cncpc your I find your questions to be bordering on the absurd and probably not worth replying to.
But for your enlightenment I wish to point out that I had one of the most successful careers anyone in aviation could ever hope to have.
I worked for Companies most pilots would never even get near employment wise......therefore I am insulted by your mindset.
Don't bother saying anymore as I will not respond further to such ignorance.
. E.
Balance edited as inappropriate.
Last edited by cncpc on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
Re:
Which makes it Okay for a "college" to wander onto the scene and make it SOP? How paranoid are we becoming. To be honest, if I had a job installing drywall, I'd probably be strung out on drugs to get through the day!Beefitarian wrote:I have had to provide a urine sample for many of the worst jobs I have had including delivering drywall. Just a hunch but the Airlines probably are allready doing this.
