College of Pilots

[cncpc]

Sorry Doc, but the quotes tell what the problem is:

That is the only agenda I have is to see a college in place that would provide some much needed oversight of our industry….

...not even the "majority" of 703 ops that are "bad". I’d say to be honest its about 65/35 to the good.

Who decides whether an operation or pilot falls on one side or another of the good/bad divide? Based on what? And having decided that, what exactly is meant by “oversight”? Is it worth wrecking the good 65 for the sake of the 35? What about when the split is 80/20, or 90/10?

I guess the answer to your question of who decides is, in the oilpatch at least, Contrail. Based on what? Arbitrary numbers.

You are reinforcing the point I was trying to make about the College having to consider the background of the industry itself, particularly the 703 fixed wing, and you are right that many pilots have jobs that don't need fixing and a sizeable number of companies don't need fixing.

[TomM]

Sorry for the delay in posting, I just got back from meeting with Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis in Area 51 and we have unilaterally decided where this needs to head. I'd have been back sooner but RL-206 was snagged with a rough running #2 Iroquois.

I hope you read that as a little humour to lighten the mood on here.

The discussion of the past few days reminds me of "Forrest Gump" when he was in college football. Just hand it to him and Run! Forrest Run!

No, we're not planning a College football team. Sorry, but it could round out the CFL.

A friend that spends more time here than me suggested that I should try to clarify things. That is what I have tried to do and despite my newly torn arse by some of you, I believe it has been an effective exercise on the whole (pun intended). I have also been contacted via PM and email by some people that I sincerely hope will help us to move this forward and help build this into something we can be proud of.

OK, on with the clarification.

1. I am using caps here for effect: THERE IS NO HIDDEN AGENDA. Period. The people I am working with on this project are all upstanding, honest and sincere. Again, to repeat myself, there has been no secrecy, just very slow progress due to the fact that we are volunteers with limited resources, families, jobs and personal challenges. Today was reason to celebrate in my home as my wife was given great news by her surgeon. It's been three years now and we are so relieved.

2. Drug testing- wow, where did that come from. Not on agenda, never discussed, not contemplated STOP GETTING WOUND UP ABOUT IT!!!! Run Forrest!!

Perhaps the confusion around this is that one of the items we hope to provide is "best practices" that are noted in point 4 below. At the airlines, we have access to alcohol and substance abuse support programs. They are wonderful organizations that help pilots in there time of need to get back on track. We want to share that expertise with all pilots.

3. I have said this before- NOTHING IS CAST IN STONE. This is a theme on the hidden agenda paranoia or that we're trying to ram something down your throats. I admit we do have a vision and I believe I have been trying to articulate that here. Please review my previous posts. One of the key components of the vision is that nothing is cast in stone. We intend to move this project to a democratic organization as soon as possible and at that point the direction will be set by the members. Assuming that this does stick as an organization, one of the key elements to success in the future is to constantly evolve and reflect on the moment, look into the future and adjust accordingly. You take a 10 degree turn 75 back from the CB as opposed to a 40 degree up close. That's just being wise.

Also, as I have said on here before, in many ways it is already democratic. You can decide this is the stupidest thing you've ever encountered and not join. That's a choice. Sounds like democracy to me. If you like what you see, YOU can choose your level of participation and help shape the vision.

4. Initially, the College will act as an information conduit, a place to share best practices, a place to join together in a slightly more formal way that beers at the pub with your peeps. All pilots that are members will be your peeps. We are also working on truly transportable insurance products that can follow you around wherever you are, from job to job. As the membership grows and the members steer the vision, then there is opportunity to expand into other things.

That's enough for now. I will add more soon. I've been on the road for a week and I'm happy to be home with my lovely bride and kids. If you have questions, fire away and I will do my best to answer them. Try to keep this discussion on track and the debate respectful. This is useful for all of us, even my newly torn arse.

Fly safe,
Tom

[contrite]

Once again, Contrails is a mere obfuscation in this discussion. Those customers that participate in the program are putting money into aviation operations’ and pilots’ accounts, and they are using that leverage to create a standard they feel comfortable with. Whether it is arbitrary or effective is not the point in the context of the college debate, and the device is common in aviation and in other industries. The college will not create direct revenue for anyone except the college. Since their proposed standards will be no less arbitrary, if one still insists on the comparison then an argument against Contrails is also an argument against the college; can’t have it both ways.

And what are we voting for and being asked to participate in again? Nothing is cast in stone, so anything is possible. There is no hidden agenda, because to this point there is nothing to hide because there is no agenda. We are supposed to be comforted by that? If there is not a clear statement of why we are doing this, then why are we doing this?

This democracy aspect keeps getting raised as well, speaking of arbitrary. The number of one-third has been chosen as sufficient support to constitute the college, which is not a majority, or plurality, or even a good consensus. Once constituted however, the college will take this tepid authority forward to regulators and the industry under the pretense of being the voice of professional aviators. Once this starts and if the college is subsequently recognized and enfranchised, it will only take a majority portion of that one-third minority to impose requirements on all of us. That is anti-democratic, if anything.

Tom, I respect your effort and attempt to improve things, but until there is a clear set of guiding principles and by-laws and code of conduct published in public for all to see, and then voted on by representation from all potential members as outlined in the by-laws, and until it takes at least a majority of potential members to constitute the organization and to make changes, I don’t see how this can advance without creating more problems than it attempts to solve. If in fact it should advance at all.

[Doc]

TomM, very happy your wife has good news. Puts everything else on the "back burner" for sure.
Hope you remembered it was Elvis's 77th birthday yesterday!
Looking forward to hearing more.....take care.
L

[trey kule]

First of all, Tom, you are big fat liar....there was absolutely nothing wrong with RL 206's engines.
After weeding through all the posts here (no pun intended), one of the challanges I see the college facing is the fact that , well, nothing is written in stone. Perhaps it would be a good start to determine the goals at this time, confirm that they are valid , and then post them clearly.

Doc makes a very valid point. It almost seems that the college is searching for a reason to exist rather than wanting to exist to address some areas....well except for the insurance thing, and maybe selling hats, sweatshirts, cups, and watches.

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps it is time to sit down and determine what exactly are the present objectives, and make certain they are valid. Then look at how to achieve them.
Post that, and I think the discussion would stay closer to the topic.

Gosh, it is easy to be a critic.

[TomM]

Thanks for the kind words Doc. Elvis and I shared a Jack n Coke and chipped ice off of Walt Disney's cryogenic chamber to put in the drinks!

OK, here's some tentative text for the hopefully soon to be rolled out, revised website:

Mission:
In the interest of public safety and in collaboration with all stakeholders, the College will oversee , maintain and promote the calibre of Professional Pilots in Canada.

Vision:
The College of Professional Pilots of Canada will be recognized world-wide as the "gold standard" for the self-governing model for maintaining pilot's credentials.

Values:
Safety is paramount
Peer based review maintains the best calibre
Open and honest communication
Transparent policy and finances
Democratic process
Continuous improvement- we recognize that change and refinement are essential
Always abreast of industry leading trends
Trusted advisor to all stakeholders
Provide our members group insurance products and other support programs
Promote interest in Canada's youth to choose aviation as their profession

Operational Scope

Currently, the College has no mandated powers of oversight and its members are truly pioneers in moving the endeavour forward. There are many waypoints ahead on the flightplan to achieve the destination of peer based review and self government.

The College supports a balanced approach of appropriate performance based measures in conjunction with prescriptive based regulations. The College intends to create opportunities for industry experts to share their knowledge and experiences with the express goal of creating best practices models and reference material pertaining to:

> maintenance of professional standards,
> advances in flight training techniques, crew resource management, threat error management, simulation technology and aircraft in-flight instruction,
> the technical aspects and scientific examination of the human aspect of flight operations, aircraft and human performance,
> programs for alcohol and substance abuse, critical incident response protocols and other support,
> the use of "peer based review" and effective mentoring to instill the desired behaviours in pilots without the need to use sanction or punitive measures,
> financial aid, scholarships, bursaries and promotional efforts to encourage new aviation professionals.

While a fully implemented professional College would require a sanctioning body or disciplinary review board and process, if the above points are utilized to their full potential, issues will be resolved in a proactive manner, rather than reactive.

The College is also working to establish a comprehensive, completely transportable group insurance plan that all members can access.


----

Constructive comments welcome.

G'nite

Tom

[Doc]

Sorry for the delay in posting, I just got back from meeting with Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis in Area 51 and we have unilaterally decided where this needs to head. I'd have been back sooner but RL-206 was snagged with a rough running #2 Iroquois.

I hope you read that as a little humour to lighten the mood on here.

The discussion of the past few days reminds me of "Forrest Gump" when he was in college football. Just hand it to him and Run! Forrest Run!

No, we're not planning a College football team. Sorry, but it could round out the CFL.

A friend that spends more time here than me suggested that I should try to clarify things. That is what I have tried to do and despite my newly torn arse by some of you, I believe it has been an effective exercise on the whole (pun intended). I have also been contacted via PM and email by some people that I sincerely hope will help us to move this forward and help build this into something we can be proud of.

OK, on with the clarification.

1. I am using caps here for effect: THERE IS NO HIDDEN AGENDA. Period. The people I am working with on this project are all upstanding, honest and sincere. Again, to repeat myself, there has been no secrecy, just very slow progress due to the fact that we are volunteers with limited resources, families, jobs and personal challenges. Today was reason to celebrate in my home as my wife was given great news by her surgeon. It's been three years now and we are so relieved.

2. Drug testing- wow, where did that come from. Not on agenda, never discussed, not contemplated STOP GETTING WOUND UP ABOUT IT!!!! Run Forrest!!

Perhaps the confusion around this is that one of the items we hope to provide is "best practices" that are noted in point 4 below. At the airlines, we have access to alcohol and substance abuse support programs. They are wonderful organizations that help pilots in there time of need to get back on track. We want to share that expertise with all pilots.

3. I have said this before- NOTHING IS CAST IN STONE. This is a theme on the hidden agenda paranoia or that we're trying to ram something down your throats. I admit we do have a vision and I believe I have been trying to articulate that here. Please review my previous posts. One of the key components of the vision is that nothing is cast in stone. We intend to move this project to a democratic organization as soon as possible and at that point the direction will be set by the members. Assuming that this does stick as an organization, one of the key elements to success in the future is to constantly evolve and reflect on the moment, look into the future and adjust accordingly. You take a 10 degree turn 75 back from the CB as opposed to a 40 degree up close. That's just being wise.

Also, as I have said on here before, in many ways it is already democratic. You can decide this is the stupidest thing you've ever encountered and not join. That's a choice. Sounds like democracy to me. If you like what you see, YOU can choose your level of participation and help shape the vision.

4. Initially, the College will act as an information conduit, a place to share best practices, a place to join together in a slightly more formal way that beers at the pub with your peeps. All pilots that are members will be your peeps. We are also working on truly transportable insurance products that can follow you around wherever you are, from job to job. As the membership grows and the members steer the vision, then there is opportunity to expand into other things.

That's enough for now. I will add more soon. I've been on the road for a week and I'm happy to be home with my lovely bride and kids. If you have questions, fire away and I will do my best to answer them. Try to keep this discussion on track and the debate respectful. This is useful for all of us, even my newly torn arse.

Fly safe,
Tom

Tom. You said nothing here. A long post. All "bun" no "meat". You're dealing with carnivores here. What IS your agenda? What shortcomings in the industry are you targeting? Literally, I have read your post four times. There is nothing there. C'MON MAN, what are your plans? Why should I support them. I've been taking hits left and right for my negativity towards a "college", but seriously, I have seen nothing to support?? The industry has ALWAYS had problems. Which ones are you targeting? Forget the long winded political "speeches". Where's the beef?

[snoopy]

Once again, Contrails is a mere obfuscation in this discussion. Those customers that participate in the program are putting money into aviation operations’ and pilots’ accounts, and they are using that leverage to create a standard they feel comfortable with. Whether it is arbitrary or effective is not the point in the context of the college debate, and the device is common in aviation and in other industries. The college will not create direct revenue for anyone except the college. Since their proposed standards will be no less arbitrary, if one still insists on the comparison then an argument against Contrails is also an argument against the college; can’t have it both ways.

And what are we voting for and being asked to participate in again? Nothing is cast in stone, so anything is possible. There is no hidden agenda, because to this point there is nothing to hide because there is no agenda. We are supposed to be comforted by that? If there is not a clear statement of why we are doing this, then why are we doing this?

This democracy aspect keeps getting raised as well, speaking of arbitrary. The number of one-third has been chosen as sufficient support to constitute the college, which is not a majority, or plurality, or even a good consensus. Once constituted however, the college will take this tepid authority forward to regulators and the industry under the pretense of being the voice of professional aviators. Once this starts and if the college is subsequently recognized and enfranchised, it will only take a majority portion of that one-third minority to impose requirements on all of us. That is anti-democratic, if anything.

Tom, I respect your effort and attempt to improve things, but until there is a clear set of guiding principles and by-laws and code of conduct published in public for all to see, and then voted on by representation from all potential members as outlined in the by-laws, and until it takes at least a majority of potential members to constitute the organization and to make changes, I don’t see how this can advance without creating more problems than it attempts to solve. If in fact it should advance at all.

EXACTLY! (deliberately quoted in entirety which is rare for me...)

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[snoopy]

Well TomM, at least we've come to expect grand sweeping statements from you, so the below is no surprise. I might strongly suggest you have a lawyer review your grandiose statements before you step too far off the plank. Free speech is one thing, false statements quite another - particularly when those statements may affect others.

Mission:
In the interest of public safety and in collaboration with all stakeholders, Define all. All stakeholders in the College? All stakeholders in the aviation industry? And just how much collaboration can you actually substantiate in your claim? the College will oversee , maintain and promote the calibre of Professional Pilots in Canada. Really. ALL Professional Pilots? So with no clear mandate, code of ethics and conduct; and without any kind of credibility, past experience or authority, the 10 of you are going to oversee, maintain and promote professional standards for every single professional pilot in Canada, regardless of whether you have our support or permission to do so. Once THAT gets quoted in the news media a time or two, you can bet you'll wished you consulted that lawyer.

Vision:
The College of Professional Pilots of Canada will be recognized world-wide as the "gold standard" for the self-governing model for maintaining pilot's credentials. Once again, I absolutely do NOT want any other agency than the Canadian Federal Government in charge of my internationally recognized (ICAO) Canadian licenses, or any aspect of issuing, renewing, endorsing and/or revoking them (now I KNOW I stated this already). Nor do I want any other method other than due process under federal law governing my right to work in my own country. You have zero authority over this pilot's credentials. I've been to Parliament twice and laid my career on the line more than once fighting for aviation safety and better standards - you can rest assured I'll personally fight that one tooth and nail.

Values:
Safety is paramount
Peer based review maintains the best calibre This just smacks of good ol boys club. No thanks. I'm proud of my professional standards and those of my colleagues that have earned my respect.
Open and honest communication
Transparent policy and finances
Democratic process
Continuous improvement- we recognize that change and refinement are essential
Always abreast of industry leading trends
Trusted advisor to all stakeholders I don't even know where to start with this one. Trusted? Are you kidding me? I don't even know you and I have a healthy distrust of the past three year pattern you seem intent on perpetuating
Provide our members group insurance products and other support programs
Promote interest in Canada's youth to choose aviation as their profession

Operational Scope

Currently, the College has no mandated powers of oversight and you have no business having any! Federal Law is just that, LAW. We don't need vigilantes thanks, just proper due process under the law....and its members are truly pioneers in moving the endeavour forward. There are many waypoints ahead on the flightplan to achieve the destination of peer based review and self government. More like landmines...

The College supports a balanced approach of appropriate performance based measures in conjunction with prescriptive based regulations. The College intends to create opportunities for industry experts to share their knowledge and experiences with the express goal of creating best practices models and reference material pertaining to:

> maintenance of professional standards,
> advances in flight training techniques, crew resource management, threat error management, simulation technology and aircraft in-flight instruction,
> the technical aspects and scientific examination of the human aspect of flight operations, aircraft and human performance, So, you have properly trained and accredited scientists and technical experts on staff? May we see their credentials?
> programs for alcohol and substance abuse, critical incident response protocols and other support,
> the use of "peer based review" and effective mentoring to instill the desired behaviours in pilots does this include brainwashing??? without the need to use sanction or punitive measures,
> financial aid, scholarships, bursaries and promotional efforts to encourage new aviation professionals.

While a fully implemented professional College would require a sanctioning body or disciplinary review board and process, if the above points are utilized to their full potential, issues will be resolved in a proactive manner, rather than reactive.

The College is also working to establish a comprehensive, completely transportable group insurance plan that all members can access.

Seriously. Are you for real????

[Doc]

Jesus Snoopy.....You are BANG ON!!!

My absolute favourite is the line...
"While a fully implemented professional College would require a sanctioning body or disciplinary review board and process,"

To sanction and discipline pilots who do/don't do what? Exactly?

[freakonature]

Something that was not becoming of a professional?

[Doc]

Something that was not becoming of a professional?

According to who's yardstick? Next we'll need malpractice insurance. Sure hope my Windsor knot is up to par.

[cncpc]

Something that was not becoming of a professional?

What? What do you mean?

A professional what? You mean a professional pilot, don't you? What would not be becoming of a professional pilot?

Not being the kind of person you are? Wearing women's underwear (well, not you Snoopy)? Mismatched socks? Bestiality?

Exactly what would be unbecoming of a professional pilot? And who decided that?

Is air safety compromised because pilots are unbecoming?

[Localizer]

I can only imagine that the people who fear the CPPC, are the ones that wouldn't or couldn't meet a potential standard. As for "federal law" and your "ICAO license" .. yikes .. TC has no obligation to you as a pilot .. hell they can't even violate you anymore as long as you fill out an SMS report. In reality there is no oversight in this industry anymore, no more accountability.

I also have to assume that most negative comments regarding the CPPC are coming from those that operate on the corporate side of the table .. Ops Mgr, CP's, or some level of managment. When a conversation regarding the CPPC comes up, most pilots seem to be in favour of what's being offered. (which is more then what's currently available)

I guess time will tell ..

Cheers.

[contrite]

It is probably more correct to say that those that oppose the college do not want to be forcibly governed by a small group of crusaders who think that anyone that disagrees with them is either incompetent or management or in some way in need of “re-education”.

[Beefitarian]

Either me or the people opposedt o this have the wrong idea. (probably me)

They see it as a governing body. Lurking with a pair of CPL scissors.

I see it as a more directly related to aviation extra like a Bsc. If you have it, you have an extra on your resume that may be a bonus to getting hired or paid more/promoted sooner. If you don't it does not take anything away from your CPL.

[Dayofthedogs]

Maybe I'm way off base here, but I'm going to take a stab at it.

To those who have continually spoken about the "hidden agenda" or back room dealings with which they assume the college would operate.... What exactly do the 705 pilots have to gain out of the college besides improved industry safety and the peace of mind that knowing they did what they could to improve the industry long after their hayday? That is an honest question, not a backhanded insult.

As it appears to me and although I do not know the demographic of the current 10 board members, any real gains and realizations made by the college would not end up benefiting them as it will be a slow process and they very well could be retired.....

I believe the "yard stick" to measure professionalism would be up to the members to decide once the group became a democratic entity. (yes I understand we have differences in what you "believe" is democracy).

Tom please tell me if I'm out to lunch here, but so far my understanding of what you have proposed is as follows;

-The goal of you and your board at the current time is to grow awareness and offer membership to all fixed wing/fling wing cpl and atpl holders sometime in the futur

-At reaching the goal of 7000 members yourself and the 10 person board (along with your hidden agendas!!!! ) that currently sits will step down allowing for democratic elections to be held.
-side point, for those that claim 7000 out of 23000 is not democratic I agree, however I'm assuming that Tom and the college are implying democracy with in the college and those who chose to be it's members, therefore if all the members of said college are allowed to vote or abstain for that matter it is democratic (probably more so) then the current form of national politics.

-Upon reaching the point where democratic elections are held, the college will then begin to seriously shape its vision and mission statement with the input of it's members

Tom, I'd like to thank you for your time and patience. Although I haven't decided where I stand on the college yet, In my eyes anyone who is trying to better the world of aviation without themselves receiving any sort of compensation or realized personal gain (unless I'm unaware of something) deserves a little more respect then you have seen here.

[contrite]

Your statements illuminate a big part of the problem. Despite each of us knowing exactly what we think ourselves, it is not possible to tell who has got the wrong impression of what the college is intended to be. Just when someone thinks they have a handle on it, the objectives change, the goals are modified, or a previously stated function is watered down in response to a posted objection. Despite this uncertainty, those that do not whole-heartedly endorse the entire vague notion are being told to just “trust” the good intentions of a handful of activists, and to stop being so difficult. Everyone should just blindly sign up now and it will all be figured out later.

All of that would be fine, but one of the few things that have been clearly stated is that the college intends to enforce an unknown code of conduct and have the power of oversight in the entire industry. So to simply say, if you don’t like it don’t join, is not a valid response to an opposing point of view, since at some point that minority intends to have authority over those that didn’t choose to participate initially.

If no one else sees the potential for catastrophe in that undefined path to restricting their ability to work, then I truly am insane and I will shut up now.

[Doc]

What the HELL is wrong with women's underwear??

[Cat Driver]

With the powerful emotions being displayed here in opposition to forming a new organization to work for the betterment of the industry I am sitting here trying to think of a reason I should become involved in this bitterness and decisive dialog.

Life for me after retirement should be pleasure...not despair.

[URC]

How much is this "College" going to cost, and who is going to pay for it ? It's bad enough that our taxes keep going up while the government continues to cut services and implement more user fees, now we have a bunch of pilots who want to play Government and create their own Bureaucracy to replace a system that is already paid for by the taxpayers !? How is this fiscally intelligent ? Is the current calibre of pilots really that bad ?

Also, is a quasi Government organization run by pilots even realistic ? It's clear from past experience, look at the breakup of CALPA, Age 60, seniority list mergers, base vs base, hats vs no hats, etc., that once pilots are organized into any type of semi-large group, and then presented with an "issue", they become disfunctional and divided. Will the attempt to organize them into a "College" just cause more problems and actually have the opposite effect of what's intended ? I suspect the answer is yes, if this thread is anything to go on. In any event, the "College" fees deducted from my paycheck will be worth the price of admission just to watch how this impending fiasco plays out. Good luck. I should've become a lawyer.

[confuzed]

Jesus Snoopy.....You are BANG ON!!!

My absolute favourite is the line...
"While a fully implemented professional College would require a sanctioning body or disciplinary review board and process,"

To sanction and discipline pilots who do/don't do what? Exactly?

That's exactly what I was getting at. Who decides what is/isn't professional? If something were ever to happen, what if there is a discrepancy between what the college thinks and what transport thinks? Whose decision is final?

That whole area of the college is what concerns me.

[Beefitarian]

Wouldn't the discipline be removal from the college? You're not in it now, so what are you so afraid of?

[dazednconfused]

The College of Professional Pilots of Canada will be recognized world-wide as the "gold standard" for the self-governing model for maintaining pilot's credentials.

Currently, the College has no mandated powers of oversight and its members are truly pioneers in moving the endeavour forward. There are many waypoints ahead on the flightplan to achieve the destination of peer based review and self government.

That long list is like a shotgun blast trying to cover every aspect you can think of, lots of fluff, including a plan to assume certain powers of Transport Canada? You think you'll phone them and they'll send over the database of commercial pilots and all pertaining details and magically you'll have oversight powers? I sure hope you have a multi-million dollar budget, annual, for the army of lawyers you are going to need, on top of all the other office staff. TC cant even afford to send out their quarterly safety newsletter in paper format. Pilots are struggling enough as it is, and you think they'll hand over annual dues, so my questions are where will you get funding from to achieve even one item from your list? How will you ever, in this lifetime, get oversight authority?

[Prairie Chicken]

Tom, given the good news in your household, what the HEL are you doing on this forum? Trying to bring your euphoria down? Go out & buy some good cava to celebrate with tonight!