Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
And I know we should be running in free mode, but we don't.
You're right. Nobody is there "holding a gun" to the pilot's head. Nobody should work for a company that even comes across that way. So, why is it happening? Even I (of "it's always the pilot's fault" fame) am starting to believe there is something in "blaming the company culture".....and I just don't understand it. And right now, understanding it, is paramount in bringing this kind of a thing to an end. How DO companies accomplish the feet of "forcing" pilots in absentia into pushing weather to this extent?godsrcrazy wrote:Out of respect i will say what i feel on this forum. As much as some here beleive pilots are forced into bad situations i say that is BS. We all have voices and back bones. I have yet to find an employer that has held a gun to my head and threatened me or my family if i don't fly. I have met a few that threatened my job and to them i say F off. The fact is we all have the right to say NO. The sad part is for every one out there that says NO there is those out there that say i could have done that. Seems there are some on this forum that want to blame employers for every thing. Maybe its time some look in the mirror and say there is no job or morgage worth risking my life or anyone elses for.
It just amases me that without proper facts people are running around placing blame wether it be employer or pilot.
Doc wrote:You're right. Nobody is there "holding a gun" to the pilot's head. Nobody should work for a company that even comes across that way. So, why is it happening? Even I (of "it's always the pilot's fault" fame) am starting to believe there is something in "blaming the company culture".....and I just don't understand it. And right now, understanding it, is paramount in bringing this kind of a thing to an end. How DO companies accomplish the feet of "forcing" pilots in absentia into pushing weather to this extent?godsrcrazy wrote:Out of respect i will say what i feel on this forum. As much as some here beleive pilots are forced into bad situations i say that is BS. We all have voices and back bones. I have yet to find an employer that has held a gun to my head and threatened me or my family if i don't fly. I have met a few that threatened my job and to them i say F off. The fact is we all have the right to say NO. The sad part is for every one out there that says NO there is those out there that say i could have done that. Seems there are some on this forum that want to blame employers for every thing. Maybe its time some look in the mirror and say there is no job or morgage worth risking my life or anyone elses for.
It just amases me that without proper facts people are running around placing blame wether it be employer or pilot.
As far as "placing blame" without the "proper" facts.....bad weather, company mouth piece says weather flyable, no approach published, descended below ground level....what "proper facts" are you waiting for? And from where will they come?
Unfortunately those of us who are harsh on some employers and T.C. are in the minority which is one of the reasons the industry is so poorly regulated.There are some off you how are harsh on employers and harsh on Transport Canada.
I agree with most of what you say here Bushav8er but I would suggest there is a time when risking your life flying is worth it...and that is when on medevac. I recall an incident when I was flying as a co-pilot for a medevac op in MB. I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc. The CP said, I wouldnt normally ask this, but this patient is going to die if we dont get them to YWG in the next 3 hours(all our other aircraft were out or had no crews). We felt a moral obligation to do the flight. So we did. When we landed in YWG and the patients family thanked us so much etc, it kinda made it worth it. We were dog tired and had worked 20 hrs straight by the time we hit the hotel in YWG. In that instance, when a life is at stake...I feel its morally something you cant ignore. I know the operation should have adequate crews and in most instances they do. From time to time in the medevac world, you sometimes have to push yourself in order to save another persons life.Bushav8er wrote:Changing the political party in charge is one thing, the problem is changing the bureaucrats that actually run things.
I have yet to see, or hear, of ANY flight that was worth risking a life over...nothing is so important it can't happen another day - period
We were hardly trying to be heros. The wx was legal and although we were dog tired, we knew we could complete the mission with very little additional risk. Again ill stress the importance of having 2 crew! SPIFR I wouldnt have even considered it...as the wx was bad but legal. We just wanted to do the right thing, and in this instance, it involved breaking a duty time reg. No other regs were broken or bent in the making of this (true) story.Bushav8er wrote:Flight duty aside I'll ask;
1) was the weather legal and Yes
2) excluding the patient, how many were on board?2 pilots, the patient, flight nurse 4 total.
I go ahead with this knowing that an argument may be made for such a case but...
Assuming the weather was legal, you took the usual calculated risk for the flight - doesn't apply to the 'being pushed' scenario. If it wasn't you are saying that trading x number of lives for 1 is a balanced measure of risk? No sir. Im suggesting that if we didnt do the flight, the patient would have died. That left us in a moral dilemma.
Moral obligation may be felt, may even make one feel good if they succeed, but what-if the flight hadn't worked as planned and x number plus the patient are now dead - worth the risk? How much are dead heroes worth?
flyinthebug wrote:I agree with most of what you say here Bushav8er but I would suggest there is a time when risking your life flying is worth it...and that is when on medevac. I recall an incident when I was flying as a co-pilot for a medevac op in MB. I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc. The CP said, I wouldnt normally ask this, but this patient is going to die if we dont get them to YWG in the next 3 hours(all our other aircraft were out or had no crews). We felt a moral obligation to do the flight. So we did. When we landed in YWG and the patients family thanked us so much etc, it kinda made it worth it. We were dog tired and had worked 20 hrs straight by the time we hit the hotel in YWG. In that instance, when a life is at stake...I feel its morally something you cant ignore. I know the operation should have adequate crews and in most instances they do. From time to time in the medevac world, you sometimes have to push yourself in order to save another persons life.Bushav8er wrote:Changing the political party in charge is one thing, the problem is changing the bureaucrats that actually run things.
I have yet to see, or hear, of ANY flight that was worth risking a life over...nothing is so important it can't happen another day - period
My 2 cents.
Fly safe all.
CP was in YWG...hence why he called us...we were based in YCR and the patient was in YTH. It was time sensative and even if he jumped in the Cheyene and came up, it would have been too late for the patient (transplant patient and the organ was waiting in YWG). It was not an option for the CP to take the flight.godsrcrazy wrote:One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.
Nobody's going to bust a duty day launching from their home base? That would be very bad form. And indefensible. You'd get your ass violated for sure for that one. (home base is usually where the CP is)godsrcrazy wrote: One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.
Doc wrote:Nobody's going to bust a duty day launching from their home base? That would be very bad form. And indefensible. You'd get your ass violated for sure for that one. (home base is usually where the CP is)godsrcrazy wrote: One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.
I wasnt clear until my 2nd post that our base was YCR not YWG (where our CP was based) I did say in my original post that our CP "called" us and needed us to go. I didnt specify we were based in Cross Lk and he in YWG.godsrcrazy wrote:Doc wrote:Nobody's going to bust a duty day launching from their home base? That would be very bad form. And indefensible. You'd get your ass violated for sure for that one. (home base is usually where the CP is)godsrcrazy wrote: One would question why didn't the CP releave at least 1 of you. This would have maybe put 1 fresh set of eyes and brain in the front.
Then why did Flyinthebug write if nobody's going to bust their duty day from their home base/ base
If you re read this quote, you will see Doc wrote that comment not me.
I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc.
No way I would have don that trip. Under any circumstances. Your CP should never have put the pressure on you by even asking. There are no "unforeseen" circumstances here. None. You put yourself in a totally indefensible position. You're at 14.5 hours. You have to turn the airplane around, file, check weather, fuel.....You'd be at 15 plus hours before you even sparked up. This exactly the BULL SHITE we talk about when we talk about bullying in the industry.godsrcrazy wrote:
I had just flown 14 1/2 hours non stop back and forth from YTH-YWG in poor weather. We landed back at the base both exhausted. The CP calls us as we walked in the office and told us we had to go back to YTH and pick up a patient for emergency transfer to YWG. We initially said no we cant were dutied and tired etc.
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