Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[CL-Skadoo!]

SMS doesn't prevent accidents all by itself but it does keep the executive accountable. If the axes comes down this time it will come down squarely on the executive.

I wish someone was on the scene to tell the people trapped in the plane that. Hey you guys, its ok, that nasty ol' accountable executive will get a nice slap on the wrist and told not to play with planes anymore for being so naughty. We've gone to the step of charging pilots with criminal negligence, I don't see that fate for a single accountable executive in this country.

I'm all for this level of outrage, it's healthy and creates awareness. People are generally aware how many organizations conduct their business in NW Ontario and N. Manitoba. So even if this accident was a completely unavoidable series of unfortunate events (a novel fairy tale), that whole goddamned area needs to be held up to the light and examined quite closely.

[flyinthebug]

Nice little lynch mob forming here. Maybe you guys should chill a few days and wait for details before you destroy people's lives on this forum. Aviation in Canada is a relatively small community. Posting names in this very negative manner should be reserved for cool heads and the dissemination of facts.

As far as SMS and "oversight" goes, no program can prevent every accident. Operators have been doing stupid things as long as aviation has been around.

SMS doesn't prevent accidents all by itself but it does keep the executive accountable. If the axes comes down this time it will come down squarely on the executive.

As ive stated..I am usually 100% in agreement with you that we should wait and see before we all armchair quarterback any accident.

In this particular case though, the "accountable executive" has a proven track record of bullying pilots, flying heavy, pushing weather daily. It was just a matter of time before something like this would happen. Those of us with this passion against him, are people that know him...or have flown for him or dealt with him in business. He deserves all hes getting and then some.

With this one CID, it becomes OUR responsibility to advise the public that this person and his air service *cough again* is dangerous and WILL kill more people if hes allowed to keep working. Its time for this guy to be brought down, tried in court, and sent to prison for quite some time to come. It wont bring back all the people whos lives he personally has destroyed...but justice WILL be served. The whole "karma thing" is coming around to bite this guy right square in ass and its LONG overdue.

My 2 cents.
Fly safe all.
FTB

[Prairie Chicken]

they have a restraining order against t.c.

Can anyone elaborate?

[Dayofthedogs]

So much we don't know, so much speculation

Left YWG 0715 went down in KQ3 at 1000..... 2h45??? 90kt groundspeed?

Some residents say there were blizzard conditions and couldn't see in front of their faces. A resident says they saw the plane make a sharp bank. One resident says it was so bad they found the plane because they followed the black smoke. Another said they could see the accident from their house. Residents claim they heard the plane make "put put" noises........
Huh?

RIP

[Doc]

To all making negative comments re Keystone Incident;


In my experience, a mature, professional and seasoned pilot would not make these comments without waiting for more information to come to light. It should be a wake up call and reminder for us all. This could happen to any one of us and we should show a little compassion and not jump to conclusions.
My sympathies to all involved

FlightNurse1

NEWS FLASH!!! A "wake up call" is when you scare the crap out of yourself! NOT when you KILL 4 people! This company has had MANY a "wake up call"! I am a fairly "mature, (sometimes professional) and seasoned pilot.....this aircraft was dispatched from Winnipeg to North Spirt Lake in (to be kind) questionable weather by a company that has a reputation for "pushing" pilots into poor weather and low fuel situations as a matter of course. A company who's operational control is under the watchful eye of an ex Transport Canada Inspector (enforcement, I believe?) who has NO excuse to act all innocent in this matter. FACT: the weather was reporting low ceilings and freezing precipitation. FACT: North Spirit Lake has NO IFR approach published. FACT: This ex inspector IS fully aware of this. FACT: Your remark that "this could happen to any of us....." is PURE BULL SHIT!!!

[grimey]

Does anyone else think that Keystone managed to keep their AOC was because their Ops Manager used to be head of enforcement at TC.

http://www.keystoneair.mb.ca/Management.html
Operations Manager: Ed Ratzlaff
This Guy was never in TC. Where are you getting your info from?

http://www.avaerocouncil.ca/index.php/e ... cilitators
quoted from above:
"Ed Ratzlaffed ratzlaff

Ed Ratzlaff is the General Manager for Keystone Aircraft Maintenance Ltd. at the St. Andrews Airport in Manitoba. He has been with Keystone since 2004. Before that he worked as pilot and mechanic in all sizes of aviation companies from local flying school to a national airline. Ed has served on the Manitoba Provincial Trade Advisory Committee for the AME trade and recently participated in CCAA’s working group for the development of short courses. By trade Ed is a licensed AME and commercial pilot. He also holds degrees in education and arts. In addition to English, he is fluent in German and Spanish. Ed lives in Winnipeg where he volunteers on boards and committees in the not-for-profit sector."

Hmmmm wonder what he really does there. Ops-Manager / PRM of the Air Service and the GM of the maintenance. Wow there is a conflict of intrest.

The Ops Manager most people are referring to is George Riopka, the former Ops Manager, former TC inspector, and the person the company has chosen to be the spokesman for the latest crash (I won't say accident, because I don't believe that covers what happened here). At the time Tayfel crashed on Logan Avenue which is what Bede is referring to, Riopka was the man in charge.

[CpnCrunch]

Maybe someone should track down that pilot that got fired and offer them a job (assuming he/she normally practices those kinds of good decisions, and assuming that's really why he/she got fired)? That's how you stand up for, and support good decision making.

Exactly. I don't understand why some companies think it is good business to fly in below-legal weather. Sooner or later you're going to have a crash, with all the resulting lawsuits, insurance premium increases, negative publicity and other shit that results in. Flying safely makes good business sense.

Unfortunately it seems that the only way these companies will be stopped is if they get sued out of existence.

[Doc]

2/ many companies have ops spec for reduced vfr however usually requires a detailed training program and 2 crew .

Seriously? I've never heard of this. Helicopters, maybe. Fixed wing? Under what circumstances would you require this. I seem to think it would be a little foolish?

[Les Habitants]

Almost every pilot in Winnipeg knew it was only a matter of time.

How much are we to blame for not burning this company to the ground?

How would we even go about doing so without losing jobs and being blacklisted in the industry.

Im sure every person who moved through this company has several horror stories to tell. Is it not time for the truth to come out?

If we stay silent wont the poor pilot get the blame? Once again..
Evil exists.. Because we stand by and let it..

Im very upset about this. I feel very sorry for the families who lost loved ones.

Im getting a nasty feeling that the pilot will carry all the blame..

This is EXACTLY what upsets me. The brass there are spineless. I've seen them say to my friends SO many times "Well I flew it with that much fuel." or "Well just call it ____ (way under) amount of pounds of cargo thats on board." Or "You can easily fly through that icing, I do it all the time." or my favorite "Why are you snagging this? You're just trying to get out of work." And yet when something happens and TC goes after them, they point the finger at the pilots and say "well it was his decision, we didn't tell him to do it, in fact we didn't even know he was doing it and we wouldn't ever have him do that."

They pressure the pilot with threats of firing them or never upgrading them or not giving them their bonus, but when they do do something and it goes wrong, they don't back their pilots up one bit. Rather, they throw them under the bus.

I agree with a previous poster who said let's wait for more details before we rag on the pilot, but this crash certainly is bringing to light the company culture at Keystone. And it NEEDS to change!!!!!

[Les Habitants]

they have a restraining order against t.c.

Can anyone elaborate?

.


PC, I believe it means TC cannot show up at their door for an inspection without a days notice. They kept doing surprise visits and inspections (and frickin rights too!) so C got tired of it and had a restraining order put up against them. Now they have to be given 48 hours notice to clean up their act before TC shows up. Thus, TC is prevented from doing their jog again.

[cncpc]

So much we don't know, so much speculation

Left YWG 0715 went down in KQ3 at 1000..... 2h45??? 90kt groundspeed?

Yes, good observation. Something doesn't add up there. It's 166 statute direct.

On another front, I understand the anger, but until we have some idea of the total picture, some posts are putting this forum in legal danger. It's all well and good if the worst case scenario advanced here proves to be true, and each individual who is identifiable (people with initials and job titles clearly are identifiable) has culpability. Anything else, and its defamation.

[FISH-FLY]

Keystone has consistently put very low-time pilots into the left seat of the PA31, often flight instructors coming off of a Cherokee or a small Cessna, with less than 1000 hrs TT (under the guise of flying "VFR" only). I am not saying that this was necessarily the case with yesterday's pilot, but it has been a consistent practice in the past. They then push these young guys with little to no northern experience, and little to no IFR experience into IFR weather, with VFR fuel on a VFR flight plan. Not to mention being single pilot, with no auto-pilot.

Other Manitoba companies that compete with Keystone in the air charter business have had way more attention from Transport in the recent past, mainly over paperwork issues, but because Keystone had all of their i's dotted and t's crossed, they were mainly left alone. But the real issues that endanger lives, like pushing bad weather, penny-pinching every drop of fuel that is put into an aircraft, and "calling" freight whatever number you need it to be, were only prevalent at Keystone, and everybody knew it. Not to mention all of this completely unneccessary long-range "VFR" flying in an IFR capable aircraft, for the purposes of allowing lower time pilots into the left seat and taking less fuel and more freight. I can't count how many times I have heard a position report from a close-by VFR Keystone flight at 4500 feet in solid IFR weather.

I feel sick about this one...as I have been in the Manitoba flying business since I began my career, and everyone knew this type of thing was coming. I know what it is like to be worried about losing my job and starting over, especially as an up and comer in the industry, so I feel for the employees of Keystone right now. However, this place has to be shut-down. There are other very safe and legitimate 703/704 companies close by to pick up the slack and hopefully the good employees caught up in this mess.

[CID]

CL-Skadoo, it doesn't help to make this an emotional issue. It really does cloud the real issues which I think are accountability and education. Transport Canada can not guarantee a pilot won't do something stupid no more than the police can guarantee nobody will ever drive while impaired or run a stop sign.

Laws and regulations do not prevent crimes and historically, no matter the situation, often don't offer much of a deterrent except for the most level headed people.

Education helps prevent accidents such as this and an accountability framework helps prevent people from ducking responsibility. How many people have we seen in the past avoid any jail time even though they bankrolled and controlled an operation?

And in this case the operators may well be part of the responsibility chain but we can't ignore the pilot who is always ultimately responsible for the safety of his passengers.

[snoopy]

2/ many companies have ops spec for reduced vfr however usually requires a detailed training program and 2 crew .

Seriously? I've never heard of this. Helicopters, maybe. Fixed wing? Under what circumstances would you require this. I seem to think it would be a little foolish?

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... 4-1425.htm

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... tm#723a_28

723.28 VFR Flight Minima - Uncontrolled Airspace

The standard for reduced VFR limits of one mile in uncontrolled airspace is as follows:

(1) Aircraft Equipment

The aeroplane shall be equipped with the following equipment:
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(a) an artificial horizon;
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(b) a directional gyro or gyro compass; and
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(c) a Global Positioning System (GPS) navigation receiver.
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(2) Pilot Experience

Before conducting operations at reduced visibility, pilots shall have achieved at least 500 hours of experience in Part VII or equivalent operations in the same category and class of aeroplane for which the authority is sought.
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(3) Airspeed and Configuration for Operation in Reduced Visibility

Aeroplanes shall be operated at a speed such that obstacles can be seen and avoided. Aeroplane configuration for operations in reduced visibility shall conform to the Aircraft Flight Manual recommendations.

(4) Pilot Training

Pilots shall receive training as follows:
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(a) initially and every three years thereafter, pilot decision making training which shall include the following topics:
(amended 2000/12/01; previous version)

(i) the decision making process, including modules on factors which affect good judgement;
(amended 2000/12/01; previous version)

(ii) human performance factors, including modules on physical, psychological and, physiological phenomena and limitations; and
(amended 2000/12/01; previous version)

(iii) human error countermeasures and good airmanship;
(amended 2000/12/01; previous version)

(b) one hour initial flight training and one hour annual recurrent flight training in basic instrument flying manoeuvres and flight at reduced airspeed; and

(c) initial training and annual recurrent training in the use of all equipment specified in subsection (1) above, and in all procedures specified in the Company Operations Manual for low visibility operations.

(5) Company Operations Manual

The Company Operations Manual shall contain the following information:
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(a) a company-established minimum safe operational IAS and configuration for reduced visibility operations for each aeroplane type for which this authority is sought; and

(b) company low visibility operational procedures and considerations including, but not limited to:
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(A) wind,

(B) gross weight and weather considerations,

(C) route/terrain knowledge and/or restrictions (availability of forced landing areas, potential for white-out, etc.),

(D) time of day restrictions (e.g., no low visibility operations at dawn or twilight), and

(E) communications.

[Doc]

1 mile a and clear of cloud is pretty much the norm in uncontrolled. I was thinking there was a ops spec for something even lower.
Cheers

[sky Rookie]

Before i say my two cents my thoughts go out to all involved in this tragedy


This comment isnt going to make me popular and dont take it as insensitive

Why is everyone saying keystone! keystone! keystone!
I did my stint there as well, never found to be pushed to go. we as pilots made the decisions and checked the weather.

If keystone has ten flights in a day the cp or owner are not going to check the related weather for all the areas and micro-manage everyone, thats not at all practical.

If this was nothing but weather related than the responsibilty of what happened is the pilots. Inexperienced and made a decision to fly into terrible weather to an airport with no approach. Descending below msa=illegal for a reason

I hate to speak ill of the departed, especially because i heard that he was a great guy. but this is not the result of a bad company (keystone) its the result of a bad pilot

Our jobs can be dangerous it we make a series of bad decisions, take a second and think before you go, or before you descend

and ask yourself

WHAT THE FU*K AM I DOING?

[SnotRocket]

Regardless of whether this crash was the result of the pilots poor decision and/or company pressure, it will hopefully open up investigation that will finally shed some more light on this company's poor practices, maintenance failures, and management failures.

Some of the smartest pilots I know came from Keystone. The ones that quit quickly.

[snoopy]

1 mile a and clear of cloud is pretty much the norm in uncontrolled. I was thinking there was a ops spec for something even lower.
Cheers

It's not the norm without the Ops Spec... not the legal norm anyway - unless you're one of those that supports selective rule-breaking. It's one mile for helicopters, 1/2 with the respective Ops spec.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#703_28

VFR Flight Minimum Flight Visibility - Uncontrolled Airspace

703.28 (1) Where an aeroplane is operated in day VFR flight within uncontrolled airspace at less than 1,000 feet AGL, a person may, for the purposes of subparagraph 602.115(c)(i), operate the aeroplane when flight visibility is less than two miles if the person

(a) is authorized to do so in an air operator certificate; and

(b) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

[ei ei owe]

I'll bet you Cliff and his son are both pee-ing their pants right now.

I bet you they're not. That's the sad part.

[126.75]

I did my stint there as well, never found to be pushed to go.

With a straight face could you tell us you were never forced to fly a broken airplane? I don't mean an airplane you "thought" you could fly, but one that would not meet the minimum legal requirements for flight? SPIFR with no AP, Attitude Indicators not working, de-ice boots that are ineffective going into known icing? I don't know what the PA31 AFM says but for what I fly anything in "visible moisture" below +10 counts.

Could you also state that you never flew with VFR fuel reserve while flying IFR?

If you can truthfully state you never cut these corners - congrats! You are better than the others - I know some of them and there are corners being cut.

EDIT: Choice of words

[SnotRocket]

Before i say my two cents my thoughts go out to all involved in this tragedy


This comment isnt going to make me popular and dont take it as insensitive

Why is everyone saying keystone! keystone! keystone!
I did my stint there as well, never found to be pushed to go. we as pilots made the decisions and checked the weather.*

If keystone has ten flights in a day the cp or owner are not going to check the related weather for all the areas and micro-manage everyone, thats not at all practical.

If this was nothing but weather related than the responsibilty of what happened is the pilots. Inexperienced and made a decision to fly into terrible weather to an airport with no approach. Descending below msa=illegal for a reason

I hate to speak ill of the departed, especially because i heard that he was a great guy. but this is not the result of a bad company (keystone) its the result of a bad pilot

Our jobs can be dangerous it we make a series of bad decisions, take a second and think before you go, or before you descend

and ask yourself

WHAT THE FU*K AM I DOING?

*Results Not Typical
The typical Keystone experience: Young inexperienced Captains with no support from seniority. If you're unsure about the weather the answer is "Go anyway, just OBS the runway." Have a snag? Call the CP and your answer is "Go anyway." Actually snag it and you get a threatening phone call from the president: "We do not snag things here, we want to fly it while we order the part." or "You're fired." Refuse bags, and you either get put on the shit list, or they fire you when the customer complains.

[spaner]

Every time, you guys go round and round. The fact is that things are the way they are, because everyone wants it that way. The guys on the inside know the truth, but they don't speak up. The guys on the outside don't know the differance. I've been there, after a situation, thanking my lucky stars but acting like everythings normal to passengers and others. Why? because this is how it is, the crew are resposible to complete the mission, and it's ugly. I didn't make it ugly, I came into this industry and it was ugly when I got here. From time to time I tell a manager or boss to frack-off, when I've had enough, and they call someone else in to do the mission, if the mission blows, nothing is said, but I'm in the s*it house. If cowboy makes it in, I'm looking for a new job. Same mentality applies to all aspects of the industry including snags, wx, duty/rest, days off, fuel loads, cargo loads, should I go on? I've even had a manager on occation tell me that I "missed" because I just wanted to prove him wrong, when he "insisted" that the flight go. WTF? Just like any shady industry, there are two sets of books(rules/regs) the nice clean book for the media and oversite and then the real book, the one that is 100% verbal, never written down and the one the pilot is responsible for following. The second will get you killed, and the first is the one that the management dusts off for presentation at the inquiry. If you know of any 03/04 company that does not work like this, let me know so I can go there, willing to move anywhere. I've had 7 contracts and they're all the same.

*Frack* their feelings.
Alonzo: You're not making them feel like you're part of the team.
Jake: The team? You guys are frackin' insane. All right, I'll go back to the Valley. I'll cut parking tickets. Why does it have to be this way?
Alonzo: I'm sorry I exposed you to it, but it is. It's ugly, but it's necessary...

I didn't make this industry, I just work here.

[Doc]

Every time, you guys go round and round. The fact is that things are the way they are, because everyone wants it that way. The guys on the inside know the truth, but they don't speak up. The guys on the outside don't know the differance. I've been there, after a situation, thanking my lucky stars but acting like everythings normal to passengers and others. Why? because this is how it is, the crew are resposible to complete the mission, and it's ugly. I didn't make it ugly, I came into this industry and it was ugly when I got here. From time to time I tell a manager or boss to frack-off, when I've had enough, and they call someone else in to do the mission, if the mission blows, nothing is said, but I'm in the s*it house. If cowboy makes it in, I'm looking for a new job. Same mentality applies to all aspects of the industry including snags, wx, duty/rest, days off, fuel loads, cargo loads, should I go on? I've even had a manager on occation tell me that I "missed" because I just wanted to prove him wrong, when he "insisted" that the flight go. WTF? Just like any shady industry, there are two sets of books(rules/regs) the nice clean book for the media and oversite and then the real book, the one that is 100% verbal, never written down and the one the pilot is responsible for following. The second will get you killed, and the first is the one that the management dusts off for presentation at the inquiry. If you know of any 03/04 company that does not work like this, let me know so I can go there, willing to move anywhere. I've had 7 contracts and they're all the same.

*Frack* their feelings.
Alonzo: You're not making them feel like you're part of the team.
Jake: The team? You guys are frackin' insane. All right, I'll go back to the Valley. I'll cut parking tickets. Why does it have to be this way?
Alonzo: I'm sorry I exposed you to it, but it is. It's ugly, but it's necessary...

I didn't make this industry, I just work here.

"I didn't make this industry, I just work here....." Also known as....."I was just following orders......"
I will toss out the cliche, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem...."
When I get the the point that I truly believe that....."It is the way it is....." I'll toss in the towel and do something else. Perhaps that time has come for you? As far as the "Adventures of Alonzo and Jake", I have NO idea where you were going with that one.

[razorblade]

I just got an email from a Winnipeg Free Press reporter, asking me to call him back so he can ask me questions about the incident, the pilot's family and all that.
Now I have all that info (I knew him - we weren't close or anything). I just didn't think the media guy would be as retarded to ask someone for that info - there's a reason that info has not been released - there's something called privacy, people!

Hi: I'm a Wpg. Free Press reporter working on a story about yesterday's
crash. We are hoping to be able to do a story about who the pilot was,
where from, family, and any other info we know what questions to ask to
Keystone. Can you help me? xxxx 204-xxx-xxxx

Edited for grammar.

[ywg9]

Les Habitants is exactly right about the restraining order and guess who's brain child that was...GR's. this accident only proves that the company should be shut down regardless of what they find. if you had a good experince working there you are one of a very few that I know of, cause what you describe wasnt my experince there