College of Pilots

[Doc]

Cat, with all due respect mate, they are not crazy about you. I wonder how many young pilots have tried to contact them, and what the results were? Subjects like being "pushed" you your employer?

[Prairie Chicken]

I wonder how many young pilots have tried to contact them, and what the results were?

Doc, if your question is how many young pilots contact TC with fears of unsafe operations ... I don't know. Likely not many. Some of the more senior people would talk things over with their ops inspector and try to find resolutions there. I do know very, very few contacted TC Enforcement directly. I could tell you more but it really would be off topic.

You're right though. If TC were on task we wouldn't be having this thread about the College.

[Beefitarian]

Pilot's are terrified of Transport, everything is the responsibility of the pilot in comand. No one wants to tell you they flew over wieght because they were afraid to get fired because they know you're just going to fine them or take away their license. People in this thread wrote about how they are afraid the College is going to take away their license and it doesn't even exist yet.

I'm interested in how many of you have written to TC directly to address your concerns. All the safety related issues that have been listed here are within the realm of TC's jurisdiction.

I'm also curious as to how many of you have "blown the whistle", found yourself fired, filed a complaint with the Ministry of Labour, and did not get some sort of satisfactory resolution.

I think that's part of the theoretical concept of this College thing here. They hope to make it easier for new pilots to know what employers to flat out avoid before it gets to the point where someone needs to "blow the whistle". No one wants to risk being known as a tattle tale that was fired. How do you explain that on your resume?

My reward for trying to correct a wrong with TCCA was they blacklisted me in the industry and I had to leave Canada to earn a living in aviation.........best thing that ever happened in my career and I would rather work in Nigeria than Canada in aviation.

I'm really genuinely sorry and disappointed to hear that. I guess the next level up would have been to sue the employer directly for wrongful dismissal, although I understand that can be a financial sink-hole without guaranteed results.

I believe he was the employer in his situation. I might be mixing up the story though.

[snoopy]

Where do you get this "pilots are afraid of Transport" from???? That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on here recently! Maybe those pilots that haven't got a clue how to read/comply with CARS or pass a check ride?

I suppose if you're flying overweight and breaking other rules maybe you should be terrified of Transport, but then, why would you be doing such things? Certainly a professional pilot would have nothing to fear from Transport Canada, or anyone else for that matter.

Its OPERATORS who are afraid of Transport Canada, and rightly so - and not for the reasons they SHOULD be afraid of Transport Canada (ie if Transport Canada was actually conducting anything remotely resembling oversight). Someday if you operate an air service, or take on a management position, you'll understand my prior comments about bullying, regional disparity and personal interpretations of Federal law by untrained people who don't have half a grasp of the Federal Laws they are supposed to be administrating.

And why the heck do we need a College to educate new pilots as to which companies they should avoid????? If there are companies out there so bad as to need avoiding (and there are) then SOMEBODY (hint... federal government) isn't doing their job!!!! Wouldn't a better answer be to get the federal agency that has the proper jurisdiction and authority over such matters to be held accountable for the existence of those companies and make that agency do their job????

And "how do you handle that on your resume"? Well, you don't need to "tattle" on a company. You need to do your job properly - like a professional pilot would. If you get fired for it, YOU TELL THE TRUTH on your resume, and/or in the interview. You don't tell your perspective employer what a rotten, dirty scumbag company your ex-employer was (that just makes you look bad) - you tell them the circumstances of the flight or incident, and simply state that your employer did not support or agree with your decision(s) and/or professional conduct and terminated your employment. End of story.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Beefitarian]

Yeah, cheers.

[Doc]

It's that whacky tobackie talking......again.

[trey kule]

I

Jesus mate, the Titanic is looking for a new Captain as well.....

do you have the contact names and numbers? I know there are 50 guys who will take the job lined up, so I want to make sure they know I will pay for all my training, sigh a 30 year amortized bond, and if it will lead to a flying position I will work for nothing. Oh, and I can start immediately , as my present employer will certainly understand that Imust advance my career.
That seems to pretty much cover what most employers are looking for.

Now,back to the topic of the college..Snoopy, you are a breath of fresh air. I do hope those that are promoting the college so vigoursly will give your comment some fair consideration.
I think you actually may speak for the majority.

[flyinthebug]

Someday if you operate an air service, or take on a management position, you'll understand my prior comments about bullying, regional disparity and personal interpretations of Federal law by untrained people who don't have half a grasp of the Federal Laws they are supposed to be administrating.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

Although I do not agree with your position on the college Snoopy, I will have to conceed (twice in one week) that this comment of yours is spot on correct! Doc brought up in another thread "what can we do" and he seemed almost completely "lost" as to what to do next? You have pointed out the problem we ALL face, and that is the constant misinterpretation of the CARs by each individual inspector. Some are very good at what they do and understand the CARs, while others have no understanding whatsoever of what they are attempting to enforce. Even the ones that understand the CAR, often have varying interpretations of what the CAR means. Its varies broadly from region to region. Things I could do with the Prarie region, were completely stomped on by the N. Ont region. It is this lack of understanding of our CAR system that is a BIG problem in our industry. If we could at least have the same standard(reg) for ALL regions, and some consistancy with their decisions, that would be a BIG help.

My concern was with the rest of your post. How could a college NOT have a positive effect on the industry? Maybe they will have a place in our industry, with the function of a sort of ombudsman? A body that could mediate and mentor. A place where pilots could turn when they are in need of advice (mentoring).

We all agree that we need change in the industry. But when some people step up to implement change, they are attacked and chastized for their efforts. I believe we have our answer why we never learn from our mistakes...its our inability to accept change. This group of people is offering change that would bring positive outcomes to the industry as a whole, and many of us dump on them and tell them how wrong they are. I believe this kind of stance is why accidents keep happening and we dont seem to learn.

We have to support positive changes in our industry, not attack those with the vision of how to improve an industry that obviously needs an overhaul.

I remember you putting your career on the line to speak at parliament. I respect you for that. You were onside with the idea of an assoc a few years back...may I ask why the change now Snoop? Im sure the board of this new college could use your input and advice as they build. Its people like you that we need to support these ventures, and your voice to forward them. Why are you so against this idea now Snoop? This is an honest question and I hope you will point out why you are so against it?

Thanks.
Fly safe all.
FTB

[trey kule]

FTB

To quote you.

How could a college NOT have a positive effect on the industry? [/quote

That almost sounds like a conclusion, and I have to ask, on what basis. Or ask the question, of exactly how the proposed college will have a positive effect. I have seen nothing on this whole thread that is a concrete example that could be at least considered an answer to your question.
And I think others feel similiarily.

You then posted.

This group of people is offering change that would bring positive outcomes to the industry as a whole

Exactly what concrete changes are they proposing that are valid and would allow you to come to that conclusion.

This is not about good feelings or optimism..It is about exactly what they plan to do, and if successful, what positive changes would occur.

Whenever I read people with good honest objectives, being told they are just resistant to change, I have to wonder if the suggester is simply ignoring good advice, by rationalizing it this way. So, what exactly do you find just to be a resistance to change in Snoops and Docs posts, rather than valid concerns?

[flyinthebug]

FTB

You then posted.

This group of people is offering change that would bring positive outcomes to the industry as a whole

Exactly what concrete changes are they proposing that are valid and would allow you to come to that conclusion.

This is not about good feelings or optimism..It is about exactly what they plan to do, and if successful, what positive changes would occur.

Whenever I read people with good honest objectives, being told they are just resistant to change, I have to wonder if the suggester is simply ignoring good advice, by rationalizing it this way. So, what exactly do you find just to be a resistance to change in Snoops and Docs posts, rather than valid concerns?

trey kule...

If you will accept that this group is in its infancy, then you may also accept that it is only at the concept stage. The absolutism that bothers me... is those opposed to the college who dismiss it with as much passion as I (may decide) to support it. How can you simply dismiss an idea with as little knowledge as I have, in regards to what they may do for us all. I will use TomM`s words to finish my point.

Point 4 in Toms post suggested the College may...(Tom`s words in bold )
Initially, the College will act as an information conduit, a place to share best practices, a place to join together in a slightly more formal way that beers at the pub with your peeps. All pilots that are members will be your peeps. We are also working on truly transportable insurance products that can follow you around wherever you are, from job to job. As the membership grows and the members steer the vision, then there is opportunity to expand into other things.

Note the underlined/italic text as its a very important piece of this idea...MEMBERS STEER THE VISION. I like that idea!

Then he goes further and says...
Mission:
In the interest of public safety and in collaboration with all stakeholders, the College will oversee , maintain and promote the calibre of Professional Pilots in Canada.

and...
The College supports a balanced approach of appropriate performance based measures in conjunction with prescriptive based regulations. The College intends to create opportunities for industry experts to share their knowledge and experiences with the express goal of creating best practices models and reference material pertaining to:

then he goes on to list several areas of our industry that the college would assist with.

I conceed there is very little "substance" at this point. I also understand the opposition to this idea as it does initially come across as another layer of bureaucracy.

What im preaching is not an blanket approval of this board or idea...I AM asking people to please start a dialogue with TomM and see if maybe he can enlighten you on things I at this time am not pervy to. Im only asking good pilots like yourself, Doc, Snoop etc to please at least give this group our attention. Hear them out and listen to what they have to say. I know it may not fly, or even get off the ground. But we ALL agree we need positive change...so why not at least hear these guys/gals out on their proposal and see if maybe there is something positive that can come from a college. God knows the way things are going now is not the direction any of us wish to take.

I agree that its hard to sink your teeth into fluff...but if a group of like-minded pilots are getting together on their own nickel...to TRY to improve our industry, how can we not at least ask questions and listen to the answers? How could something not postive come from this type of undertaking? I know there is not the "concrete" answers you and others are seeking, but at this early stage, I would suggest that is a wise step on the part of the college board. They are asking for OUR input to help them mold their vision. I am not saying its concrete and solid...but I am suggesting it could become so.

Thats all I got for now.
Fly safe all.

*Edit to fix quote*

[trey kule]

My point was simply how can you support it wholeheartdly when you, as you admit, no so little about it. Asking apple pie and motherhood questions like..how can you not support it, and not valid arguments. that is they type of question that no one will answer that they will not support something that has at its goal positive changes..But then, the issue becomes are their proposed goals addressing the necessary issues, and are they valik.
As to our agreement on the need for positive changes. As others have pointed out, which , inmy opinion, are the correct areas that need change, are not being addressed by the proposed college, not does the college seem to appear to have an interest in addressing them. And I must be a bit hazy on this claim, as Tom;s post was a bit hazy on exactly what the college will address.
First, there must be agreement on what must be changed to have a positive effect. Then the proposed objectives must be examined to determine if they actually adress those issues.
Do that, and they will get my support.
But after three years, I do not see where they have done that at all, and when people bring up clear and precise areas to address, and then they are not considered, I have to wonder.

It is never popular to point on that an objective in not vaild or addressing the real problems, as can be seen from the reaction to some of the posts..Things like I agree....but....followed by a feel good, be part of the team solution question...dont address the issues at all.

Quite frankly, I still see it as an organization that is looking for a reason to exist, and is trying to sell the doesnt everyone agree change is needed line, when the suggetions for what really needs to be changed, or left alone, are ignored.

[TomM]

Well,

This has been an interesting, enlightening exercise. Messy, but interesting.

Perhaps the way to move forward with this discussion is for me to reiterate some of the things that I’ve already said and add a few more observations and comments.

There is a great desire from many of you to have me to go into detail on various elements of this effort. The reason that I haven’t gone into detail is not because I won’t, it’s because I can’t. At this point in this venture, we believe that it is our job to identify areas of interest, topics to pursue, but not to dive into detail over those items. That would be the job of subsequent boards to create detail or discard topics. I'm sorry if you aren’t satisfied by that.

This isn’t about the 10 of us that sit on the board. We have gathered together because we have somehow gotten to know each other through our own networks of friends and colleagues in the business. We have no intention of a secret agenda or trying to ram anything down anyone’s throat. The reason I came in here to AVCanada was to explain what we are up to and to seek advice and expand the College’s network and knowledge base. I believe that is happening and that I am making contact with people that I wouldn’t have otherwise.

It has been suggested that the College will interfere with a person’s ability to obtain a CPL or ATPL. This isn’t true. To clarify, there have been advances in training techniques and simulation that would make wonderful additions to the development of the CPL going forward. I have also said here that the industry has observed and commented that candidates for positions arrive “ill prepared” for that first job out of flight school. There is an initiative that is being put forward by industry to identify how that may be addressed. An organization such as what we are proposing would be a logical group to participate in such an endeavour to ensure any changes proposed make practical sense.

Some have commented here that the College could, in essence, and I’m paraphrasing here; create a “class structure”. If you’re in, you’re special. I don’t like that characterization. I have discussed it with our VP and Treasurer and they don’t like it either. I also agree with the posters here that have said in essence that “being a member of the College does not ensure that someone is a professional”. A College that we propose will promote professionalism and provide resources to promote it. These resources will come in the sharing of knowledge and expertise. Resources that can be read, watched, listened to or in the form of recognized experts in various facets of the industry. The board is not those experts. As our network expands we hope that those experts will present themselves.

Many posts have caused me to pause and reflect. Thank you for that. That was the intent of coming in here. Thank you for providing alternate points of view that are helping shape the vision.

Fly safe,
Tom

[flyinthebug]

First, there must be agreement on what must be changed to have a positive effect. Then the proposed objectives must be examined to determine if they actually adress those issues.
Do that, and they will get my support.
But after three years, I do not see where they have done that at all, and when people bring up clear and precise areas to address, and then they are not considered, I have to wonder.

Trey...
I abbreviated your post as I respect much of what you said. I only wanted to point out that this "new" college board is not 3 years old. Maybe closer to 6 months old. I believe it is a fully revamped board, consisting of several new members. I also believe they have a few (3 of 10) that were from the original board. Overall, its a new team and new ideals.

I also wanted to say that the 1st part of your post is all that anyone should ask of you. I concur.

Im not one to "follow the group". You can ask Doc or anyone that knows me. I am usually the one that goes against the grain...especially if I feel its an important issue. I would not blindly join or support anything. All I asked of you and others...you have offered to do. Thats good enough for now.

Fly safe.
Regards. FTB

[snoopy]

I remember you putting your career on the line to speak at parliament. I respect you for that. You were onside with the idea of an assoc a few years back...may I ask why the change now Snoop? Im sure the board of this new college could use your input and advice as they build. Its people like you that we need to support these ventures, and your voice to forward them. Why are you so against this idea now Snoop? This is an honest question and I hope you will point out why you are so against it?

flyinthebug,
If you've ever carefully read anything I've ever written on the subject, both past and present, you would know that I have never been in favour of an association - we are not yet ready for one. It was a major point of division between myself and Kirsten Stevens with the safeskies venture which we were partners in creating; and one of several reasons we separated.

Freedom is won through hard work and sacrifice of individuals who believe strongly in what they are fighting for and are prepared to sacrifice everything to get it. When an individual, or group of individuals decides that freedom and/or change is required and/or important, they step outsides the bounds of being sheep, and take a stand. Eventually others join and the force grows - personal sacrifice is reduced and cohesion develops naturally. Working together AS A GROUP for a common cause, an association is then possible, developed of its own natural accord - by the people and for the people.

We all have the capacity to effect change, but as stated before, it takes energy and personal sacrifice to make it happen.

The majority of this industry is in sheep mode - follow the flock and accept fate. It's EASY to sit around in a group of like-minded friends or anonymous users of this forum and complain freely about this or that problem in the industry, or call others to action change. There is no personal risk, and lots of agreement. It's HARD to actually get off your ass and fight for something. It means breaking rank with the sheep, and going forth and taking action on the strength of YOUR beliefs. It means facing criticism, maybe even outrage or ostracism from all quarters, and despite this, unwaveringly taking a personal stand. That is real courage, leadership and being part of the solution - it also leads to real change and improved conditions when enough people are prepared to make this sacrifice.

So a person can glom onto the latest and greatest association, throw money at it and donate a few hours of time from the comfort of one's home or office; but all that's going to do is feed the complacency with the sense that one did something. In reality it will change very little.

This particular version of an association is very dangerous, for reasons I'm not going to keep repeating. My opinion is clearly stated throughout this and the previous thread on the topic, which is linked near the beginning - should anyone care to consider my thoughts with an open mind.

Anyway, it isn't my place to tell you what you should do, or how you should feel about it. I've explained my position to the best of my ability through these forums, public speaking, writing and general conversation. I've shouldered plenty of criticism, outrage and in some cases ostracism, but overall it was worth it, and I'm proud not to be a sheep.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Beefitarian]

My point was simply how can you support it wholeheartdly when you, as you admit, no so little about it....

Things like I agree....but....followed by a feel good, be part of the team solution question...dont address the issues at all.

Quite frankly, I still see it as an organization that is looking for a reason to exist, and is trying to sell the doesnt everyone agree change is needed line, when the suggetions for what really needs to be changed, or left alone, are ignored.

Why not support it and help it become a really positive thing.

Transport is supposed to exist to address "issues".

It's just an embrio, so it's not looking for a reason to exist but is certainly going to take some time to learn what specific things it can affect.

Why does the idea that pilots can and maybe even should get together and help each other including using numbers to bring down the cost of some form of "Loss of license/medical insurance." seem bad? I sounds like a good idea to me.

[flyinthebug]

Snoopy, thank you for your reply. It really did make me stop and think. I answered each of your comments below (in colour)...

I remember you putting your career on the line to speak at parliament. I respect you for that. You were onside with the idea of an assoc a few years back...may I ask why the change now Snoop? Im sure the board of this new college could use your input and advice as they build. Its people like you that we need to support these ventures, and your voice to forward them. Why are you so against this idea now Snoop? This is an honest question and I hope you will point out why you are so against it?

flyinthebug,
If you've ever carefully read anything I've ever written on the subject, both past and present, you would know that I have never been in favour of an association - we are not yet ready for one. It was a major point of division between myself and Kirsten Stevens with the safeskies venture which we were partners in creating; and one of several reasons we separated.

I apologize for this comment. I was told by someone you were working with, that you had originally been in favour of an association. My mistake. Bad information.

Freedom is won through hard work and sacrifice of individuals who believe strongly in what they are fighting for and are prepared to sacrifice everything to get it. When an individual, or group of individuals decides that freedom and/or change is required and/or important, they step outsides the bounds of being sheep, and take a stand. Eventually others join and the force grows - personal sacrifice is reduced and cohesion develops naturally. Working together AS A GROUP for a common cause, an association is then possible, developed of its own natural accord - by the people and for the people.

I agree with every word you wrote here. Its much like what is going on with the USA and their politics right now. I look at Dr. Ron Paul as a person who could be a poster child for what you just wrote. My question is simple though...what makes you think these 10 people are not that type of person(s)? Maybe they are people ready to rattle some cages and make some noise? Maybe they are willing to fight for their beliefs. Maybe they are willing to put their careers on the line for the betterment of our industry? If you notice, there seems to be more against the college at this point than for it. I base my initial support based on what TomM has shared with us here and in PM with him. I believe they are a group that is willing to do exactly what you suggest needs to be done here. I dont believe we are all that far apart. TomM has already taken a risk by outting himself on this public forum. That in itself could have a negative effect on his career. So I see these people as ones that are ready to NOT accept the status quo and may just be willing to make a true stand...but they need OUR support if they are going to have any chance. Again, all im asking is take a look at this new group and see if maybe they are willing to take the chances you`ve outlined in your post. As for me personally, I outted myself way back in 2001 here on this board and again in 2004. Some know who I am and I stand by my comments on here or in person. I am anything but one of the sheep you refer to. Those people annoy me as much as they do you. I just want you to see what they have to say. I dont disagree with a word you typed here though. I do hope to remind you that Tom has said several times, that they want, desire & need our input.

We all have the capacity to effect change, but as stated before, it takes energy and personal sacrifice to make it happen. Agreed.

The majority of this industry is in sheep mode - follow the flock and accept fate. It's EASY to sit around in a group of like-minded friends or anonymous users of this forum and complain freely about this or that problem in the industry, or call others to action change. There is no personal risk, and lots of agreement. It's HARD to actually get off your ass and fight for something. It means breaking rank with the sheep, and going forth and taking action on the strength of YOUR beliefs. It means facing criticism, maybe even outrage or ostracism from all quarters, and despite this, unwaveringly taking a personal stand. That is real courage, leadership and being part of the solution - it also leads to real change and improved conditions when enough people are prepared to make this sacrifice.You certainly have the right to make these comments, as you are one of the few that actually stepped up. I respect all your efforts when you were part of safeskies.ca and forward. I again see this group as somehow a bit different as they meet at neutral place and all fly in for meetings on their own dime. They are facing our critisism here and on other forums. Are those traits not ones you would be seeking from people that want real change? They are showing an effort beyond just typing from the comfort of their homes, and Tom was brave enough to post under his real name. Im only asking for the appropriate amount of respect for their efforts thus far...and maybe an open dialogue so we can all learn more about the direction (they are still developing).

So a person can glom onto the latest and greatest association, throw money at it and donate a few hours of time from the comfort of one's home or office; but all that's going to do is feed the complacency with the sense that one did something. In reality it will change very little. That sounds like the current situation with the GOP in the States.

This particular version of an association is very dangerous, for reasons I'm not going to keep repeating. My opinion is clearly stated throughout this and the previous thread on the topic, which is linked near the beginning - should anyone care to consider my thoughts with an open mind. Although I dont always agree with you, I always consider your posts to be valid and ones I consider "serious and from a professional perspective". I will read back more of your posts on this issue to see where you feel the danger is coming from, and get back to you.

Anyway, it isn't my place to tell you what you should do, or how you should feel about it. I've explained my position to the best of my ability through these forums, public speaking, writing and general conversation. I've shouldered plenty of criticism, outrage and in some cases ostracism, but overall it was worth it, and I'm proud not to be a sheep. Many of us are proud of you for having the courage it took to do what you did, so I understand your passion about things requiring sacrifice.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

You really did make me stop and think for a min with this post. I will be asking more questions myself. Maybe nothing will come of this, and maybe it will. Time will tell. Thanks for the (well written) reply.

Fly safe all.

[loopy]

I'm a proponent of some sort of organization that answers to professional pilots and is a voice and advocate for those of us who work in this goofy business, which I love.

Having said that my issue is with the term "college". If you consider professions that have colleges, such as doctors and psychologists, they have both colleges and associations. The college regulates the profession and sets the requirements for entry to the profession. The association advocates on behalf of members of the profession, who have been admitted by the college.

The role of the college here is already taken by TC. Say what you will about them that is there role. Yes they are short staffed, yes hey do a tough job, yes...

The associations advocate on behalf of the pros, supporting efforts to change education, continuing education opportunities and suggesting changes to regulations and standards, and supporting individuals that have issues with the college, etc.

In our case that "association" would lobby for improving regulations and standards and supporting pilots and shining on the light on the lousy operators. You could say that is similar to what a pilots association for a given airline, in some cases union, does for the pilot corp of that airline. What we need is a greater voice for the industry as a whole. We are a collective stakeholder in ths industry and need a voice.

TC has had a recent history off spinning of certain divisions, ie NavCanada and the 604/POC program. With increased constraints of staffing and budgets, maybe they will go that way with licensing, but I'm not sure that should be our primary purpose. Having said that they, TC is backtracking and taking back responsibility for 604/POC. I highly doubt they are going to let go of licensing.

Does anyone else have an issue with the term "college"? I'm all for what is being proposed here, but I think our messaging may be wrong, especially as we seek legitimacy as an organization.

[cncpc]

Does anyone else have an issue with the term "college"? I'm all for what is being proposed here, but I think our messaging may be wrong, especially as we seek legitimacy as an organization.

The role of the "College" isn't taken by TC. The role of the degree granting educational institution is taken by TC, if you use the analogy of the existing Colleges of thisandthat.

Every other College seeks and has the right to restrict the ability of otherwise qualified members to practice whatever it is that the College governs. And that is what the original group had in mind. In fairness, its is not clear that this group thinks the same way.

This process has become like herding cats.

[TomM]

Loopy:

Your comments are correct in assumptions about "Colleges" vs "Associations". Some questions though:

1. Which came first for the other groups, the colleges or the associations?
2. Are the colleges headed up by administrators that have never practiced the profession that they represent?
3. Through attrition, TCCA are replacing pilots with non-pilot administrators. How do you feel about that?

Please don't interpret the above as an attack, I'm just asking.

CNCPC:

We have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in limiting the number of entrants into the industry. We do wish to uphold the standard but nothing more. Please stop making that assumption.

[URC]

We have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in limiting the number of entrants into the industry. We do wish to uphold the standard but nothing more. Please stop making that assumption.

Maybe YOU don't but once this College gets legislative approval they might (like Doctors) actually have the power to do this in the future ? Who is to say a future BOD would not go down this road, which I think you would agree would be a mistake. Pilots as a group have proven in the past they are incompetent and become disfunctional when trying to manage their own affairs, ie: CALPA breakup, ACPA vs ALPA, AC vs CP merger, Age 60, UAL buyout, etc. Giving such a group the legislative power the word "College" entails would be a huge mistake. I'm not knocking individual pilots here, it's just that the competitive nature of the industry is not condusive to the "College" model. The honourable goals you are trying to accomplish would be better dealt with inside the framework of a union, certified lobby group or Professional Association. IMHO.

[TomM]

Fair enough URC

One point to consider. The College envisioned will be a peer based, democratic association. So, you are correct, perhaps that is something that the membership would choose to do, except something of that magnitude would require a vote of the members.

Cheers

[Beefitarian]

Maybe YOU don't but once this College gets legislative approval they might (like Doctors) actually have the power to do this in the future ? Who is to say a future BOD would not go down this road, which I think you would agree would be a mistake.

Who is to say a meteor would not hit the earth or all the humans won't get wiped out by a pandemic, which I think you would agree would make it tough to get a job as a pilot.

Hugs and sunshine,

Beef S.

[Prairie Chicken]

Snoopy & fly have been debating their positions here & I've been reading with interest. I share fly's position and perhaps a lack of understanding. I too have respect for Snoopy's experience & contributions in the past. However, I've been surprised by her vehement opposition to this idea from the start. For that reason I have carefully read her posts & either am missing the source of her concern or she has further info she isn't sharing here. Yes, I read the fears of a non-gov't. entity affecting her licence but it just isn't adding up to me.

I really see this College idea as an opportunity to make positive change which, heaven knows, the industry needs. We have experienced individuals here who are giving their own time to get it started--why not get behind the idea? And if you are too busy with your own lives, why oppose those who are willing to contribute?


And changing direction entirely ....
I was thinking about the Northern Air Transport Assn. That group came together to lobby for mutual change in their geographic region. They've been around for a long time and as far as I know, were pretty successful in a lot of their endeavors. If competing operators can come together for mutual benefit, one would think pilots could too.

[Beefitarian]

I realise we need to be cautious.

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However I agree with these.

I really see this College idea as an opportunity to make positive change which, heaven knows, the industry needs.

If competing operators can come together for mutual benefit, one would think pilots could too.

I'd like to think pilots are able to trust each other enough to get together to help each other. This thread does have spots that make it sound like there's no way.

[Prairie Chicken]

I agree with Loopy regarding the term college, and the potential activities of the 'college' he envisons. I do have a problem with the term 'college'. I would be more comfortable with another term which may be more appropriate to a group without authority over members. I can't say if that is because I really don't see TC delegating authority, or because I've never been associated with a college. Perhaps the term, and the implications, are why the idea is getting so much push-back here. The term college would be more appropriate if and when TC actually did delegate any authority to the organization; in the short term, I'd be more comfortable with an Association.