Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[Dayofthedogs]

The cadors
http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... =0&accatcd

Aircraft filed IFR ywg-kq3 crashed at 1000, reported to have left ywg at 0715. (once again 2h45....roughly a 90 kt groundspeed for a pa31-350??)

reported to have left ywg at 0715. If the aircraft did leave ywg at 0715 and went direct to kq3 at 170kts it should have arrived roughly at 0835 making the gfa's everbody is using to base their assumptions on roughly 3 1/2 hrs out of date. I checked the metar at yrl around 1300 local and it showed 500ft and 15+ -SN the previous metars were 800ft 15+ -SN. kq3 is 100 sm north of yrl roughly 020. Does anyone have a little more relevant data on the WX? GFA's are notoriously inaccurate at times, (thanks nav can) if the WX in YRL was good for around 0800-0900 and the GFA was showing 3000 for bottoms in front and behind the one band of cloud that had 800-500ft ceilings and anywhere from 1 1/2 to 5 vis is it unreasonable to think the low ceilings and vis were localized?

I hate to break up the slagging party on Keystone, but how much do we really know about the accident itself? Maybe the chiefs in MB have a point about getting proper WX observers further north. Keystone pilots do have the option to request a co pilot, and have done so with no recourse. I don't work at Keystone and I have no vested interest in their operation in any way.

[2.5milefinal]

Flight 231, crashed into North Spirit Lake at about 10 a.m.
...taken from a news article, for what it is worth (?)

We really can not keep pretending that FAs work for making good sound go no-go weather decisions.
BTW the chiefs have it completely correct. We need more weather reporting stations.

[Dayofthedogs]

I got 1000 from the cadors, trenton confirmed the elt went off around then.

the 0715 dept time I got from the news, wich is why I wrote reported in my post.

once again I'm just trying to point out that we know little about the facts. Maybe Keystone doesn't have the best culture, I have no idea myself. however it's hard to say how much all these guys are dumping on keystone know about the operation in the last 7 years. I've read a post from a former employee who said it wasn't such a bad place to work and did not feel pressure to fly. Also heard from a guy who was flying in the area later in the day and had cloud bases at 3000, so maybe the WX was localized.

Hell even the residents can't make up their minds about what the WX was doing that day if you have read most of the media reports (see my earlier post).

Who knows if the pilot was in legal vfr after descending to MSA (2700 I think) and while setting the flaps on approach only one side came down and lost control?
Likely.... no! But what do we really know?

If we want to learn from this it would help if we got some more facts.

[ditar]

Flightaware shows a 7:51 departure time.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KEE213

[SnotRocket]

BTW the chiefs have it completely correct. We need more weather reporting stations.

Granted, but it still doesn't stop operators from encouraging busting minimums or "OBS the runway and descend till you see something" like this operator. An inexperienced captain needs support from senior captains and management, good training, and a non-punitive reporting system when it comes to snags, bags, and weather. Unfortunately you get none of this at this company, but luckily most guys get through by the skin of their teeth with nothing bad happening. They probably had a few good scares along the way.

Sure things have changed a bit there. You no longer have to call management to tell you how much fuel you can put on, but lets get real. Lets ask some simple questions? How are they doing Kelsey runs with full pax, and not requiring a fuel stop in a 200? How are they loading 6-7 fishermen with gear, and supplies to some of the lodges in IFR weather and be able to take IFR fuel without stopping? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to discover some of what going on observing from the outside. Just imagine what going on behind closed doors. They get the junk no other operator will accept.

Regardless of the cause, hopefully it will give TC opportunity to open up what is really going on on the inside and prevent more of crap from happening.

[TheStig]

It's hard not to speculate given the circumstances outlined thus far given the name on the side of the aircraft, so I'll do my best not to. We've all made mistakes and by one means or another averted disaster; equipment, experience, skill, corporate culture, weather, and dumb luck all play a role in our lives everyday.

To all of the 702-704 types reading this forum, please don't tell yourself this couldn't happen to you, it could. The following sentences will alway remove any resistance from your passengers for cancelling/delaying a trip.

"I don't believe it will be SAFE to conduct this flight given the weather information I've been provided."

All you need next is a CP that will back you up.

employerofchoice, heck of a first post, hope to read your second soon. Passion is what will be needed if we are going to prevent the same mistakes from happening again. Look at Widow has been able to achieve.

My condolences go out to those who have lost their loved ones in this accident.

[cdnpilot77]

This ^ post did remind me that I would ask one of the mods to please edit the title of this thread to (4 dead 1 injured) from 5 dead as was the original report. It may seem like a small detail but one that I feel should be addressed correctly. Thank you.

I was thinking this last night, thank you for addressing it.

[cncpc]

I got 1000 from the cadors, trenton confirmed the elt went off around then.

the 0715 dept time I got from the news, wich is why I wrote reported in my post.

once again I'm just trying to point out that we know little about the facts. Maybe Keystone doesn't have the best culture, I have no idea myself. however it's hard to say how much all these guys are dumping on keystone know about the operation in the last 7 years. I've read a post from a former employee who said it wasn't such a bad place to work and did not feel pressure to fly. Also heard from a guy who was flying in the area later in the day and had cloud bases at 3000, so maybe the WX was localized.

Hell even the residents can't make up their minds about what the WX was doing that day if you have read most of the media reports (see my earlier post).

Who knows if the pilot was in legal vfr after descending to MSA (2700 I think) and while setting the flaps on approach only one side came down and lost control?
Likely.... no! But what do we really know?

If we want to learn from this it would help if we got some more facts.

Some good observations there.

I think the operating assumption is impact under control and that probably comes from survivors of the impact, but unfortunately not of the fire for four of them. I can't but say I certainly have a bad impression of Keystone from reading this thread, but the facts when known may not justify this incident being used to support the bias against Keystone. This time. Or they may.

Anyways, wise post.

[2.5milefinal]

SnotRocket
Granted, but it still doesn't stop operators from encouraging busting minimums or "OBS the runway and descend till you see something" like this operator. An inexperienced captain needs support from senior captains and management, good training, and a non-punitive reporting system

Agree

[trampbike]

The cadors
GFA's are notoriously inaccurate at times, (thanks nav can)

GFA's are produced by meteorologists working for Environment Canada, in Environment Canada offices, not NavCanada.

[Dayofthedogs]

Thanks environment Canada. Sorry Nav Can.

Just curious, who`s call is it on airfield WX reporting equipment and where trained weather observers are stationed?

[trampbike]

I'm not sure that I understand your question, but if you want to have an idea of how many weather stations there are in eastern Canada, you can take a look a this surface analysis/observations chart (the dots, most of them are solid blue because clouds cover the sky right now, represent a weather station. Some of them are automatic, some have a weather observer, like a FSS):
http://meteocentre.com/analyse/map.php? ... size=large

It's pretty obvious how scarce the stations are when you go North.
Same goes for radar coverage (gray circles are areas covered by a weather radar): http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/radar/index_e.html

Too bad we don't have that many weather ballons, because the information provided by such graphs: http://meteocentre.com/upper/rs_skewt.p ... &stn=71722 would be very usefull for pilots.

More pilots could gain a lot if they acquired better knowledge about weather (I'm not saying a lack of knowledge was related to the accident, it's strictly as a general case), especially about the tools they could use (how and when to use them, where to find them).
If anyone is interested, this site http://meteocentre.com/home_e.html regroups most of the usefull charts, models, graphs and reports that are available for free on the internet. Since it's hosted by a Montreal university, most of the link for regional stuff is for Quebec and Eastern Canada, but you can easily find the regional infos for your region.
PM if you have any questions, or start a new thread in Flight Training!

Sorry for the thread hijack!
My sincere condoleances to the family and friends of the victims.

[Back Course]

The pilot was a good man. He was whitty and funny. The kind of funny that would have your stomache hurting and your eye's watering. He lived in many counties, worked many different jobs, and had a well rounded life experience. He will be missed.

[Kzanol]

deleted

[Cat Driver]

(all you stupid ****ers who say he should never have taken off are idiots)

Can you educate some of us idiots who are not as smart as you?

What do you figure caused the crash?

[cncpc]

The wx for the that flight was forecast to be VFR conditions at the time of arrival according to the GFA. (all you stupid ****ers who say he should never have taken off are idiots) How do I know this? Because I took off on a VFR flight to Keewaywin at 9 am that morning. The weather was fine (roughly 1000' and anywhere from 5-10 miles vis) until I got past the Berens River. At this point the weather dropped to roughly 500' and anywhere from 1-3 miles vis (still VFR for you stupid ****ers). At Sampson lake(roughly 25nm south of KQ3) at approximately 9:30 I encountered freezing drizzle at which point I turned around and returned to Red Lake. This statement has already been given to the OPP and TSB (FYI).

Were they upset at being called stupid ****ers?

Couldn't resist. Thanks for that info.

Anybody figured out why that trip would have taken 2 hours and 9 minutes? I take it it is IFR till overhead and descend to MSA and hope for VFR?

[2.5milefinal]

I have said this before. Here it is again.
If this was family, a friend or a fellow employee. Please Do not come here to avcanada.
All it will do is get you upset and make you at the very least, loose sleep.
Go be with your family and friends.
About 10 years ago I had 2 friends that where involved in a very bad crash, they where lucky, they survived.
I stopped looking at aviation forums for 6 months.

[2R]

How common is it for Navajo operators in CYWG to dispatch aircraft single pilot without the autopilot working fit for purpose?

[flyinthebug]

The pilot was a good man. He was whitty and funny. The kind of funny that would have your stomache hurting and your eye's watering. He lived in many counties, worked many different jobs, and had a well rounded life experience. He will be missed.

Thank you for sharing Back Course. As we get wrapped up in these threads, we forget sometimes that we are talking about a person. Its cool to hear he was a happy guy, made people laugh, and had seen alot of the world. Im sure he will be missed by many. My condolences to you and the entire pilot group at KA.

May he RIP. GBNF.

Fly safe all.

[DHCdriver]

Hopefully!,Hopefully! This will be the end of Keystone. DHC

[cncpc]

I think maybe we're crossing time zones in making those time calculations, or the 10 am time comes from Trenton, which means the takeoff was at 8:51.

[old_man]

Reading the cadors it looks like JRCC Trenton, at 1620Z, confirmed the plane crashed. Not that the plane crashed at 1620.

[Otterflogger]

Sad tragedy. Wait for the facts, folks, don't lynch anybody yet. Engine failure in an overshoot? Possibility, amongst others.... Goddamn weather......

Steve

[flyinthebug]

deleted

Too bad "cowboy"... I was hoping to discuss what you had typed out! You seem to have all the answers (especially in regards to whats VFR and whats not) so I was hoping you could enlighten us more? After all, we are all looking at the same GFA arent we? Anyways, regardless of your piss poor attitude, im pleased to know you were smart enough to turn around when you hit the freezing rain.

[Bond_James]

There's a lot of hate here based on little information. Yes, I've heard all the bad stories about Keystone. But a crash could happen to anyone even if you follow all the rules. Keystone is certified for IFR ops. You are allowed to transition from IFR to VFR. As we all know, weather is unpredictable. Some days the forecast is really bad and the weather is great. Other days the forecast is good and the weather is terrible.

We don't even know if weather was a factor though. What if there was a mechanical problem? We should wait for the investigation before we lay blame. Right now we are all just couch flying keyboard jockeys. We weren't the ones at the pointy end. And it's easy to say what we would have done when we can create our own scenario.

I flew with the pilot once. As others have said, he was a great guy. A lot of people liked flying and working with him. I'm sure his family misses him a lot. My deepest sympathies go out to them.