Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[cdnpilot77]

Well said flyinthebug

[Flightnurse1]

Good Day members
I am glad to see the posts are now more professional and business oriented rather than name bashing and slander. Again, lets remember who is involved in this incident.
I spoke with a cousin of one of he victims and he is devistated. As close as he is to the situation he is not pointing fingers at anyone. He said he will wait to see what facts come out of the investigation. Wise words dont you think?

[Cat Driver]

Sure flightnurse, we should just keep quiet and bury our heads in the sand and everything will get better.

[Duukar]

This is a free market.. If a company has a poor track record or a reputation for unethical practices they are supposed to be dealt with by the market.

Except in the case of aviation where all the negative elements of a company are discussed in hushed tones behind closed doors. This is simply due to the fact that being a whistle blower in this industry is EXTREMELY risky. Especially because the employees of most small operators are so broke even missing one pay cheque means missing bills.

So one operator makes alot of enemies in the industry by behaving in an unethical manner consistently. Those people can only hear so many stories until they have had enough. They are sickened. Then something like this occurs and people boil over.

The operators have enough support (the best lawyers money can buy). Who watches out for the the little guy? Transport? Laughable..

I think alot of people around here have decided it's time for some operators to go the way of the do-do, regardless of what comes out of an investigation. Regardless of what caused an accident we all have a pretty good idea of what's been going on behind the scenes with regard to company culture.

Im sure alot of people are sitting on some pretty damning stories, and have been doing so for ages.

They have had it. Why should they take it easy on these guys? Why shouldnt they criticize and condemn? They have had enough..

I say let the free market do its work. The consumer has the right to decide. To do that they need information. I say we give it to em.

The public will only see one side of this story. Why have we allowed our hands to be tied like this?

I dont believe for one second that the blame for this wont be squarely placed on the shoulders of the pilot.. Most of us know, that isnt even close to the whole story.

Professional or not, Im angry!

[WileyCoyote]

Why are these companies in business, and who is working for them with their track records?
Would anyone put up with the kind of crap that goes on in these companies if it wasn't in aviation?
Pilots keep blaming Transport, or management, but really we should be pointing fingers at ourselves. We know who "not" to work for. When will we realize flying for a living isn't worth dying trying to make a living? God men, stand up for yourselves, and if it means loosing your job, it wasn't worth working there in the first place. Go learn to drive a truck or something for a while till you find a decent operator, at least you'll still be alive.(And make more money...)
With the constant threads and information, both on here and the real world, about certain operators with poor cultures, bad maintenance, etc, why are people still working at these places? Shiny plane syndrome is killing us!

[Doc]

Good Day members
I am glad to see the posts are now more professional and business oriented rather than name bashing and slander. Again, lets remember who is involved in this incident.
I spoke with a cousin of one of he victims and he is devistated. As close as he is to the situation he is not pointing fingers at anyone. He said he will wait to see what facts come out of the investigation. Wise words dont you think?

I see my response to your last "lets wait and see....and lets be all warm and nice..." post was removed. Guess I wasn't "gentle" enough for you?
Lets see, bad weather, IFR trip to a VFR airport with no published approach? (before you get all touchy feely on me....these ARE facts)
Company has history of pushing. Again, a fact.
I don't refer to totally avoidable accidents resulting in deaths as "incidents". They're far more serious.
But, by all means, lets sit around the camp fire and sing Kumbaya! Then, we'll all feel warm and fuzzy. By all means, lets all sit on our hands. It's sure to be Okay.
So, I've posted nothing but facts.....you can go ahead and complain again.

[razorblade]

Here's the link to the TSB website, with 4 pictures of the wreckage.
http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/majeu ... 2c0005.asp

Pics courtesy of TSB.

[Beefitarian]

Why are these companies in business, and who is working for them with their track records?
Would anyone put up with the kind of crap that goes on in these companies if it wasn't in aviation?

Unfourtunately yes. The construction industry hurts people often and the worst companies keep on operating and sometimes eventually someone dies then we wonder why they had not been shut down long before instead of just fined.

Everyone says they understand "You have the right to refuse any job that is unsafe." too often someone is doing many of those jobs.

[FISH-FLY]

The news article mentioned that the pilot had only 150 hrs with the company. Was this his first job with a flying service? I realise that he had between 2-3000 hrs, but were these instructing hours, or applicable commercial experience. Not trying to rag on the guy, I'm just curious what his previous experience looked like. I know for a fact that Keystone has regularly put ex-instructors with anywhere upward of 800 hrs ("VFR" initially) into the left seat of the PA31, without any northern co-pilot experience in say a BE20 or something (which is very helpful and I would even argue integral to a safe and successful first captaincy on an IFR twin in the north). Just curious if this may have been the case in this situation.

[goldeneagle]

Here's the link to the TSB website, with 4 pictures of the wreckage.
http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/majeu ... 2c0005.asp

It may just be the angle , not completely clear in the shot you posted, and still not definitive in the ones at the tsb link. But, it does appear the propeller blade sticking up from the left engine, may be in the feathered position....

[Dayofthedogs]

So someone got into North Spirit a VFR only airport with no published approaches at 1300 CST to medevac the survivor out. According to the GFA that has been posted on this thread for 1800Z, that would have been a far worse time for wx.

Could it be that the WX was localized? That the GFA was wrong? or maybe the pilot had different WX information when he flight planned at no one really knows what time?

Queue the specualtion sh** storm in 3,2,1........

[Bond_James]

There's a lot of hate here based on little information.

Yes, I hate to read about these accidents.

Yes, I've heard all the bad stories about Keystone.

These stories are not true, they are just made up by people who hate Keystone?

But a crash could happen to anyone even if you follow all the rules.

Really? you are telling me that the chances of crashing are the same if you follow the rules as if you don't?

I learn something new here every day.

You are reading a too much into what I wrote. I'm not denying the that Keystone has a bad track record. That is a fact. There are court documents detailing the past crashes and the problems with their corporate culture. What I am trying to get at, is wild claims are being made without a lot of information. How can we learn and prevent future accidents with just conjecture?

Breaking rules intended for your safety will not leave you with the same odds of living as if you choose to follow the rules. I'm sure you know this. Flying is inherently dangerous though. We can try to make it safer with rules and regulations, but parts fail, and as humans we sometimes make mistakes. No one is invincible. Well, maybe you are.

[MrWings]

I'm not denying the that Keystone has a bad track record. That is a fact. There are court documents detailing the past crashes and the problems with their corporate culture.

If this is indeed true, then TC should be called onto the carpet.

That said, expect the TSB to go after pilot decision making to deflect the lack of enforcement.

[Cat Driver]

No one is invincible. Well, maybe you are.

I hope I do not come across as thinking I am invincible because I am not.

I am still alive though and considering how long I have been flying and what I flew has to count for something.

Personally I think the level of safety in aviation is decreasing rather than getting better.....and there are many factors that are at play here... there are to many companies and pilots still out there that disregard all the rules and lessons that have been learned over the decades.

[red run river]

Aircraft filed IFR ywg-kq3 crashed at 1000, reported to have left ywg at 0715. (once again 2h45....roughly a 90 kt groundspeed for a pa31-350??)

IFR flt plan with interim stops? Not common but I'm sure it can be done.

You can file interim stops on an IFR itinerary. I do it all the time - much easier than trying to open flight plans in between remote sites. As long as you don't enter or exit controlled airspace more than once, you can do it.

[razorblade]

Here's the link to the TSB website, with 4 pictures of the wreckage.
http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/majeu ... 2c0005.asp

It may just be the angle , not completely clear in the shot you posted, and still not definitive in the ones at the tsb link. But, it does appear the propeller blade sticking up from the left engine, may be in the feathered position....

Excellent observation. I would agree it looks like it's feathered. But it is hard to tell for sure.

[GravelOpsRock]

All I know is Ive heard these hooligans flying around the past several days, and every time I hear that name on the radio it makes me wanna puke....

Any pilots who work there... its time you stand up for yourselves and end this $hitshow of a company before anyone else loses their life....

[cncpc]

Sometimes impact can do that.

There is something that doesn't add up about those pics. It looks like the aircraft was under control at impact, and that the impact must have been shallow. No evidence of spinning in, from what I can see. I'm wondering what would have caused a fire in that type of accident. I can see it in a steep angle impact, but it all seems pretty well together just burned out and lying there. Maybe gear puncturing the aux? Or on fire when it went in? The whole nose seems to be burned out. Janitrol?

[lilflyboy262]

Is it possible that the left tank may be empty? Doesn't look like much of a fire except around the rear of the engine.

[Just another canuck]

All I know is Ive heard these hooligans flying around the past several days, and every time I hear that Keystone name on the radio it makes me wanna puke....

Any pilots who work there... its time you stand up for yourselves and end this $hitshow of a company before anyone else loses their life....

Easy there pal... think before you type.

[DHCdriver]

GravelOpsRock wrote:
All I know is Ive heard these hooligans flying around the past several days, and every time I hear that Keystone name on the radio it makes me wanna puke....

Any pilots who work there... its time you stand up for yourselves and end this $hitshow of a company before anyone else loses their life....



Easy there pal... think before you type.

I agree, lets wait till TSB completes there investigation before we throw a rope in the tree.

[cdnpilot77]

Clearly I am no accident investigator but wouldn't the left prop have more of a bend in it like the right one the it was under power or spinning on impact? The blade sticking up does not appear to have too much damage...but I am looking at it on my iPad so the picture is not that big or it could just be the angles.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Pretty much every accident I can think of in the last 15 years, to your typical Northern airport where the aircraft was lined up with the runway but crashed short involved either a GPS on OBS mode Bullshit approach to a non IFR airport.... or a descent below MDA. Both IMO ultimately speak to the company culture. If the CP says don't fly over gross, or take insufficient fuel or descent below mins and don't be doing any home brew approaches, and fires the first pilot that leaves over gross, or lands at an airport in below IFR minimum conditions or a VFR airport that has IFR weather, then I bet you won't be getting a lot of risk taking. On the other hand if the CP publicly melts down on the pilots who bump cargo in order to carry enough gas or who turn back or don't get in when he thinks they should have......well you get a (insert name of at least 7 existing 703 operators I could name off the top of my head) which has in the past killed people and will likely do so again in the future...........

[flyinthebug]

Pretty much every accident I can think of in the last 15 years, to your typical Northern airport where the aircraft was lined up with the runway but crashed short involved either a GPS on OBS mode Bullshit approach to a non IFR airport.... or a descent below MDA. Both IMO ultimately speak to the company culture. If the CP says don't fly over gross, or take insufficient fuel or descent below mins and don't be doing any home brew approaches, and fires the first pilot that leaves over gross, or lands at an airport in below IFR minimum conditions or a VFR airport that has IFR weather, then I bet you won't be getting a lot of risk taking. On the other hand if the CP publicly melts down on the pilots who bump cargo in order to carry enough gas or who turn back or don't get in when he thinks they should have......well you get a (insert name of at least 7 existing 703 operators I could name off the top of my head) which has in the past killed people and will likely do so again in the future...........

Well said again BPF!
9 pages and you are the 1st one to suggest what I believe occured all along. He was likely flying a BS GPS approach, and thats what bit him. How else was he lined up with the centre line on impact?...following the GPS CDI is my guess. Im NOT slagging on the pilot as where else would he learn that he can even shoot an approach with his GPS? Someone taught him this DANGEROUS method of BS approaches. I have 3 guesses and the 1st 2 dont count as to where he learned this.
The more I consider this crash, the more angry I get! But thanks for being the 1st to point out the obvious to those of us that have been there and done that!

Fly safe all.

[justaguy]

Has anybody else heard that the pilot had to circle waiting for the plow to finish clearing the runway? Heard that he was told by the plow guy that it might be 10 minutes before the runway was usable. Story goes that the pilot made a second "more urgent" call saying he needed to land rightaway. I'm not trying to stir the pot. Just heard this story going around in certain circles.