Where is the Chief Pilot?!

[Colonel Sanders]

Ok. I keep reading post after post in various forums here about 703/704 accidents, blaming:

1) low-time bullied pilots who don't know what PIC means, and have no morbid fear of death,
2) evil, homicidal management who want more than anything to kill young pilots
3) indifferent or even evil TC, who either ignore or even assist evil management in their genocide

I will not dispute any of the above as factual.

But what is amazing to me is that there is nary a complaint here about the Chief Pilot, who is supposed to be the person the young, suicidal pilots go to when the wx is sh1t and they're afraid to go.

Is the CP part of the evil management in all cases? Or just weak, or even completely absent?

I see a strong CP as the solution to the problem - not 5,000 hr entry-level pilots, not nailing the evil management to any nearby cross, or the usual indictment of a disinterested TC.

If the evil management fires the strong CP because they don't support him trying to stop the young pilot from committing suicide, well, they're out of business until they get another - preferably weak - CP.

And they can't get another CP unless one of YOU agree to be the weak CP.

When a young pilot goes to the CP and says that he's nervous about the wx, the CP should either agree with him, and support him in cancelling the flight, or offer to fly left seat on the flight, and teach the young pilot in the right seat about handling the local conditions.

I'm not as bright as most of you people here, but I know one thing about leadership: Never ask anyone to do anything that you wouldn't do.

[Doc]

Ok. I keep reading post after post in various forums here about 703/704 accidents, blaming:

1) low-time bullied pilots who don't know what PIC means, and have no morbid fear of death,
2) evil, homicidal management who want more than anything to kill young pilots
3) indifferent or even evil TC, who either ignore or even assist evil management in their genocide

I will not dispute any of the above as factual.

But what is amazing to me is that there is nary a complaint here about the Chief Pilot, who is supposed to be the person the young, suicidal pilots go to when the wx is sh1t and they're afraid to go.

Is the CP part of the evil management in all cases? Or just weak, or even completely absent?

I see a strong CP as the solution to the problem - not 5,000 hr entry-level pilots, not nailing the evil management to any nearby cross, or the usual indictment of a disinterested TC.

If the evil management fires the strong CP because they don't support him trying to stop the young pilot from committing suicide, well, they're out of business until they get another - preferably weak - CP.

And they can't get another CP unless one of YOU agree to be the weak CP.

When a young pilot goes to the CP and says that he's nervous about the wx, the CP should either agree with him, and support him in cancelling the flight, or offer to fly left seat on the flight, and teach the young pilot in the right seat about handling the local conditions.

I'm not as bright as most of you people here, but I know one thing about leadership: Never ask anyone to do anything that you wouldn't do.

Oh thou of the "Rose" coloured glasses! You are absolutely correct! Question is: Who would even want to take on this position KNOWING the climate/attitude, of the owner's/big bosses, etc.? Not I, that's for sure. But you speak the truth. A CP is the "go to" guy for young pilots.
A CP position require TC approval. It requires a little exam of things like CARS. It requires a certain level of experience on the type or class of airplane, and operation. There is NO requirement for a SPINE!

[CID]

Doc, I read your reply here and all of your vitriol in the accident forum and with all due respect, you're just deflecting blame away from where the ultimate responsibility lays. Namely in the middle of the cushion in the left seat. What kind of moron straps himself in to a seat of an airplane and places his own ass in danger by doing something completely stupid like conducting an approach to a VFR airport in IMC? What kind of break-down in self preservation occurred?

Do we blame the local police when drunk drivers get in an accident? Do we blame the government when someone murders a person with a gun?

You can conjure all sorts of laws and regulations and people will still do stupid things and place themselves and those in thier direct care at risk.

The answer is not scape-goating the organization. The solution is education and (belieive it or not) accountability which is something that SMS brings to the equation.

SMS does not directly prevent accidents. It's merely a framework for a safety system and accountability. The guy with the operation's bankroll is now ultimately accountable.

Regardless of the accolades we've read about the pilot in this accident, all the evidence so far points to him screwing up royally and essentially ignoring all the training associated with obtaining an ATPL. It's a little premature to viciously attack the operator or even the chief pilot's role while almost completely ignoring the pilot's apparent extremely poor judgement and apparent criminal behaviour.

Let's not remove the ultimate responsibility for the care and control of the airplane and the responsibility for the safety of passengers from the left seat.

[JWflightcrew]

You are correct, the CP has a significant role and the Pilots should be coming forward if they are in question or don’t feel right about something. I am a CP, I always tell the pilots that my cell phone is on 24/7 and they can call ANY time. However the CP has a lot of other duties and responsibilities to complete and can’t always be in the flight planning room or on the flight line. Other major considerations are: company safety culture needs to be priority, and I believe in having a great training program so the pilots don’t just do the minimum to get through the PPC ride.

As CP, you hire and train Captain’s to be in that role because you believe in their abilities and most importantly their decision making. We can’t be in the cockpit for every flight, but we can believe and trust our Captains are going to make the best decisions with the information available and their number one value is Safety of crew and passengers.

[Doc]

CID, I made absolutely NO references to the accident on another thread.

CP's of late have NOT been the people pilots could go to. They have become the puppets of upper management. If you have'n noticed this....well, I know you have.

As far as my "vitriol" comments go....bloody right. Time to stop pussy footing around on these things. IMHO, at least. Or, are you Okay with them? I'm NOT.....and I take no prisoners as far as avoidable accidents go. Nor should YOU.

In a company LIKE the unnamed subject on another thread.....SMS is THE BIGGEST JOKE yet to come down the pipe!

I do agree with you on one very important point. The final blame does lie with the PIC. BUT.....

[Doc]

You are correct, the CP has a significant role and the Pilots should be coming forward if they are in question or don’t feel right about something. I am a CP, I always tell the pilots that my cell phone is on 24/7 and they can call ANY time. However the CP has a lot of other duties and responsibilities to complete and can’t always be in the flight planning room or on the flight line. Other major considerations are: company safety culture needs to be priority, and I believe in having a great training program so the pilots don’t just do the minimum to get through the PPC ride.

As CP, you hire and train Captain’s to be in that role because you believe in their abilities and most importantly their decision making. We can’t be in the cockpit for every flight, but we can believe and trust our Captains are going to make the best decisions with the information available and their number one value is Safety of crew and passengers.

Very well put. And you are "there" 24/7 if needed. You summed up the duties and expectations of a CP very well. You obviously don't work for an organization with the "climate" of the one in question. Our CP is very much the same way. I've yet to see him not back a decision one of our guys made. The guy is totally behind us. He still balks at loaning out the airplane for weekend trips to Nassau, but other than that, he's great to work with...
Of course, we don't have any guys with 150 hours of PIC on type, that we send off into harm's way either. A CP charged with an inexperienced flock has slightly different responsibilities. Shall we say, a more mentoring position? He needs to be able to give advice on a more regular basis than probably yourself, and certainly our CP. In a case like this,the poor CP is in a position of being a wee bit of a baby-sitter, instructor and referee.

[flyinthebug]

Another good thread...if we can keep it civil.

Like in any other industry, we have good and bad CPs. They are middle management and are supposed to liase between the pilots and management. They have a HUGE responsibility and its a difficult job at the best of ops.

I have personally had good CPs and bad ones. I have been a CP for 2 different ops and I hope I was some sort of roll model during that time.

I hope its ok to share a personal story, as sometimes I get slagged for "telling my life story" on here. So ill keep it brief and vague.

A certain CP from the west coast in the 90s of a large DHC2 op...

I walked up to him with YVR harbour completely fogged in. You couldnt even see the Gate from the harbour. I declined to do my scheduled flight at 0830 and asked if if he minded me waiting at least until I could see the top of the gate. I was even willing to fly over the fog (I know, I know, but I was young and eager to please) because it was quote "normal practice on the coast". Nanaimo was SKC. He flipped out and started throwing shit around the pilot room...swearing and pacing in some kind of mindless rage. He went into the planning room and asked another pilot if he would take the flight...he agreed to do it and made me look like a punk.

CP`s words to me were that I better grow some balls or I wouldnt last long with his company. Later that week, one of the more seasoned drivers, hauled off and punched him square in the mouth, told him to @#$! off, and quit that day. I saw that as my inspiration and about 3 weeks later I taxied out (Nanaimo) and winds were 40 gusting 50 and it was 400 ft and maybe 1/2 mile. I taxied back and he flipped on me again, and got some poor kid to take them to YVR in the 185. I told him to shove his job and his reckless attitude.

I went on to find out that this same CP was involved in a fatal accident back in the late 80s where 6 pax were killed and only the pilot survived. It was this guy and this guy was angry at the world and had no business in a leadership role. I shudder when I think back to the things we ALL did to please that idiot.

Anyways, he is retired now thank god and wont be pushing young pilots anymore.
It is also important to note that I flew for some GREAT operators on the coast...not all were like this guy. As an aside, the Ops Mgr was a decent man, just not really involved in the day to day ops (as he should have been and once was).

In keeping with this thread...not all CPs should be CPs and not all management is evil and out to kill young pilots. Many of "us" care deeply about the well being of our less experienced crews and do whatever we can to accomodate them and support their decisions.

Fly safe all.

[patrickairlie]

Support your Chief Pilot!

It is the toughest job in the industry. The answers aren't always clear, the pay increment doesn't make up for the increase in workload and you get "it" from above and below.

[CID]

Doc, you state that SMS is "THE BIGGEST JOKE yet to come down the pipe" but the facts are that the overall safety figures are improving and the majors have had SMS for years.

I think many just want to deflect blame back to the regulator. It's nothing new. I remember all those people who said the CARS would be the end of aviation in Canada. I also remember people warning about deregulation. SMS is just the latest bogey man to blame for all of our short comings.

[trey kule]

The guy with the operation's bankroll is now ultimately accountable.

Horsefeathers...
.Give me a couple of examples to prove me wrong. This is public record stuff, so no foul..No corporate penalties....actually where the accountable executive was personally held responsable.

And while you are at it, explain exactly the correlation between SMS and an improved accident record.

We have been having all our pilots drink at least one bottle of beer every night, and we have at the same time seen a decrease in problems in the last few months...By your reasoning that is significant!
And maybe we should demand an increase in the beer intake.

Correlation does not imply causation or effect.

I am going to try and add a little balance to this thread. To many new pilots who dont have the neccesary abilities or experience seem to be looking to their CP to make their decisions or support them. If a company is going to hire a new CPL with a multi IFR that has never flown in cloud they must accept the reality that the pilot can not do the job they are supposed to until they have been
closely supervised to allow them to get the experience without killing themselves.
But to take the position that the PIC ALWAYS MAKES THE CORRECT DECISION, and needs backing up
is unrealistic, and unfair.

I agree with the col..You dont ask or expect anyone to fly a mission you would not do
, and in many cases you should not expect them to even fly a mission that, as CP, or as an experienced pilot you might consider routine. That is the reality of hiring inexperience. On the other hand, there is a very common perception from new CPLs that the company's main objective should be to provide them with training and experience, mentoring and love. Companies have other objectives.
and when a pilot gets pulled off a flight and a more experienced pilot replaces them , they suddenly get their little feelings hurt. They simply cant get it through their heads that a particular flight requires two experienced crew, and is not an opportunity for them to learn at that stage,
And , while I am trying to bring some balance to the ....its someone else's fault crowd, as someone mentioned...It is the PIC who makes the ultimate go/no go...NO ONE ELSE..and claiming you were pressured after the accident is just an excuse.
I have posted this many times before, but the biggest challange with the new young pilots is keeping their egos in check and stopping them from putting themselves in a postion to have an accident.
In so many situations, they just dont realize the potential dangers.

But having pilots not want to depart with a 5 kt crosswind is super frustrating.

In the past I have read post after post about how the Captain should listen to the FO..True enough.
But oddly, not one post (other than mine) that the FO should listen to the Captain...Sometimes things are done a little differently than inflight school. Most FTUs have so many restrictions, in the interest of safety, that a new CPL simply has never flown, or is capable of flying to the CPL standard.

These threads are interesting enough, but it is a good idea to explore both sides of the issue.

[Colonel Sanders]

there is a very common perception from new CPLs that the company's main objective should be to provide them with training and experience, mentoring and love

I have to agree with you on that, TK: it's amazing how many under-1000TT pilots seem to view their first job with the expectation that the company is now going to finally teach them how to fly, which I find bizarre.

If someone has 1000TT I should be able to point them at an airplane and tell them to take it to BC, Florida, California or Guatemala without it being a suicide trip, even if they've never flown the type before (but are rated on class - SEL, MEL, SES, MES, etc).

Maybe I'm expecting too much, but ... a while ago, a instructor with around those hours was afraid to teach on a Cherokee. I am not making this up. I told him I could check him out in 60 seconds on a Cherokee - it has a right/left fuel selector (no both) and don't slow it down below 80 mph on final because of the induced drag of the hershey bar wing. Fer crissakes, now go fly it.

I realize there is zero tolerance towards bending airplanes during training these days, but what you end up with when you carry that Fisher-Price playground mentality too far, is a pretty useless product. And when people build hours, they often do simply that - they don't have 1000TT, they have 100 hrs, ten times over.

[Doc]

Doc, you state that SMS is "THE BIGGEST JOKE yet to come down the pipe" but the facts are that the overall safety figures are improving and the majors have had SMS for years.

I think many just want to deflect blame back to the regulator. It's nothing new. I remember all those people who said the CARS would be the end of aviation in Canada. I also remember people warning about deregulation. SMS is just the latest bogey man to blame for all of our short comings.

It might very well work for the majors, but for the small operations....well, you just keep drinking that Kool Aid there, CID. The regulators are counting on it. More sunshine. That's the ticket. It ain't working sport. Oooooh, we did a booboo, better write ourselves up, maybe sing a few folk songs around the camp fire and promise not to do it again....next time, we'll do something else wrong.....who'll ever know? It's a cop out by TC. At least I can see it for what it is. Keystone is the number ONE airline in the country because they adopted SMS! Don't take my word for it. Ask them.

[Just another canuck]

What's SMS?

Never mind, I googled it... what a fantastic idea... I will suggest this to my boss. I'm sure it will help change the way my company has done things for 30 years.

[Doc]

What's SMS?

Never mind, I googled it... what a fantastic idea... I will suggest this to my boss. I'm sure it will help change the way my company has done things for 30 years.

Forget about the warm and fuzzy SMS...just get out there and do that trip! Hanging around avcanada! C'MON MAN! The wx is up to 75 and 3/8 of a mile....git 'er dun!

[Cat Driver]

We seem to be slipping back into the old Avcanada extremism again where every conversation just deteriorates into mindless arguing over the same issues.

703 and SMS, T.C. and all the other feel good useless subjects that add zero to safety.

[grimey]

Cat, look at a certain airline's key personnel. When you see that the President/CEO/Owner and the Chief Pilot are related, you have to wonder where their priorities lie. IMO, that alone should be a red flag due to conflict of interest, but maybe that's just me.

[Colonel Sanders]

the President/CEO/Owner and the Chief Pilot are related

Don't go to a place like that. Like a small southern town where the Sherriff,
Judge and Mayor are the same person, don't drive through main street of
that town at 70 mph and expect to have a nurturing experience.

If you're a inexperienced/weak pilot, you don't want to work somewhere
if the Chief Pilot isn't going to back you up (and yes, help you learn).

[2.5milefinal]

I find it funny that I never hear the maintenance guys complain that "the CE is forcing me to sign the plane out when its not ready to go". I have seen this kind of thing in the past (and refused to take the plane until the maintenance tasks where complete. The CP didn't like me much that day either.) I think that problem is as bad or maybe even worse then the CP problems.
I know there are a lot of pilots out there that have blind trust in the system, if there is a signature in the book it must be good to go.
Am I saying you should question every thing maintenance does...all depends on who you work for and with.
Ohhh yeah I wrote a sms report. And where do you think that report ended up ? hmmmm.

[CID]

Let's get a few things straight. I never said that SMS correlates to an improved safety record. The safety of air travel has improved over the decades in spite of whatever safety management system is in place. I stated that "SMS does not directly prevent accidents. It's merely a framework for a safety system and accountability."

There are few examples of the ultimate accountability at the executive level because SMS is still pretty new among the smaller operators.

Having said all that, let's talk about pilots....and truck drivers...and doctors. When there's a blizzard on the highway, the police will generally close the road and impose a barricade. Why? Because there will always be a few who will throw caution (and common sense) to the wind and risk the trip. This is the police trying to protect drivers from themselves.

Truck drivers and every other motor vehicle driver on the road are known for their ability to drive long distances. Not for effective risk management. On the other hand, pilots will be the first to announce to news reporters that they are highly trained to be effected risk managers.

Doctors (the medical ones) are trained to manage risks too. Major life and death decisions are made by some doctors on a daily basis. So what is the difference here?

Truck drivers are not bound to a special code of ethics and they are not quite as regulated as airlines. Furthermore, they are not any better at managing driving risks than the average soccer mom. They tend to need direct oversight to prevent them from hurting themselves and the public in general.

Doctors are bound to a code of ethics and must be part of a professional society to practice. If they screw up, they are not only accountable to the criminal laws, they are are accountable to their professional society/association that licenses them. They can not only be charged under the provincial and federal laws, they can lose their license or face other sanctions from their professional group.

Now what about pilots? Pilots are not professionally bound to a code of ethics and they are generally only scrutinized against the aeronautics act. Mark Tayfel's recent brush with civil law was a rare exception. Furthermore, the various pilot's associations, societies and unions almost ALWAYS side with the pilot in this cases and never impose sanctions. Not that they would have any clout. Look at all the pilots and pilot groups that ran to Tayfel's defense when the was facing civil charges. The various pilots groups are in adversarial positions against the operators and the regulator. Professional societies tend to strike a better balance between fair representation and sanctions when appropriate.

Pilots are supposed to be masters of risk management. That's what the average pilot will tell you. They are highly trained to not only follow the regulations but to work under pressure to resolve issues. But what are the real consequences if they fail? Besides the obvious consequences if they happen to be injured (fatally or otherwise) in the outcome.

In the case of the Keystone crash, we see the template emerge. Pilot's place the blame on the operator and the regulator and all the way to the direct link to "management", the CP.

If the Keystone pilot was a doctor, and he survived, he would likely lose his license to operate, face financial sanctions and face civil suits from the various families of the passengers. The operator may also suffer sanctions as a registered operator if they were proven to have a role. As a pilot, he would be much less likely to suffer anything more than a predefined fine against the Aeronautics Act and that is what I think is unfortunate.

Under the current system, pilots are one step above truck drivers when it comes to accountability but the public is lead to believe they are maybe a half step below a doctor.

Cat, "extremism"?? Really?