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Colonel Sanders
 Post subject: Winter Aircraft Handling
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:39 am 
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Something that continually puzzles me is that many pilots
are unhappy operating off an icy surface. You're Canadian.

My home airport has one 4000 foot runway, and it is
frequently icy - it is right now, actually. That's just what
happens when water gets cold in winter.

Recently was talking to another pilot, and he considered
a 12 knot crosswind on the icy runway a "no-go", which
amazed me. That's not much crosswind, and I'll tell you
a secret: when you're landing on ice, you can throw out
all that figure-skating crap about sideslipping to straighten
out before touchdown.

With a crosswind on ice, you're going to weathervane
during the rollout anyways, so why not just land in a
crab? It's not going to hurt anything on ice.

And the takeoff is a joke on ice. Lots of prop blast
over the tail feathers means lots of control authority.

Even supposedly highly-experienced pilots with boatloads
of northern experience seem to struggle with ice. I was
amazed that one of these guys with rows of logbooks was
unfamiliar with the use of differential throttle on ice to stay
out of a snowbank. Easy as pie, and pretty natural if you've
ever driven a boat with two engines/drives. I think ice is a
hoot!

This doesn't seem to ever get talked about, for some
reason, but lots of pilot lose it when the runway isn't
perfect, and wreck a perfectly good airplane in the process.

I have a theory about this. There are two kinds of pilots.
When you were a kid, and it snowed:

1) you quietly took your mom's or dad's car "to the library"
and spent the evening sideways on the snow and ice in a
deserted parking lot, steering the rear end with the throttle
with rear wheel drive, and using the handbrake to get and
stay sideways, and master the bootleg 180 turn, or

2) you grew your hair long and hung out at Starbucks

You can guess what kind of kid I was. The advantage of
having a misspent and vaguely redneck youth is that it's
really no big deal being sideways on the ice at 50 mph, or
even 100 mph for that matter (after touchdown in the
C421, or any other larger twin).

If you're the sort of person that gets upset when you
get sideways in your car, you're probably going to find
operating an aircraft off ice pretty frightening, and that's
a pity, because there's an awful lot of ice in Canada in
the winter.


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azimuthaviation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:26 am 
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Colonel Sanders wrote:
so why not just land in a
crab? It's not going to hurt anything on ice.


Yeah, until you hit a section with traction.


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:01 pm 
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If the runway is 100% (or nearly) ice, that's not a
problem. Only if there are significant bare & dry
patches (as well as shiny ice) is this a problem, and
it's not much of one, really.

In a light single, you will weathervane with a crosswind
on ice. Remember to get the stick/yoke all the way
over into the wind, to create adverse yaw to your
advantage, to oppose weathervaning. You would be
amazed how many 10kTT and 20kTT pilots don't
know this, or do this.

In a twin, simply use differential power to oppose the
weathervaning. Bonus points for remember these
things called "ailerons" on the rollout :roll:

If you're flying tailwheel (single or twin) on 50% wet,
shiny ice and 50% bare & dry pavement with a howling
crosswind, well, welcome to the big leagues :wink:


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Beefitarian
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:28 pm 
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The problems with the bare patches only happen when you're skidding. The tires slide nice on the snow and ice, it's kind of like being in the air, you don't get any traction there. Then if the tires are not going in a fairly forward motion so they can roll they will grab and then the plane is going to want to tilt. Drag a wing and you'll be unhappy.

This big league thing is where I'd love to have some really great rudder authority, especially in a single.


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Shiny Side Up
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Quote:
Recently was talking to another pilot, and he considered
a 12 knot crosswind on the icy runway a "no-go", which
amazed me. That's not much crosswind, and I'll tell you
a secret: when you're landing on ice, you can throw out
all that figure-skating crap about sideslipping to straighten
out before touchdown.


I think it deserves to be said though that taking off and landing are the easy parts about dealing with this sort of ice, the scary part in most cases is taxiing. Depending on your airplane, 12 knots might be enough to get you moving from a stand still if you're not tied to the ground in some fashion. A 150 which has the close to the same ammount of sail as a 172, becomes quite a bit more skittish, where having say 600 lbs less weight with the same contact patches, makes a big difference. Depending on how far you have to get from your tie down spot to the runway, I could see where one might be reluctant, especially where your taxiways are narrow.

It should be said as well that landing is no big deal, its just the getting stopped part of it, where realistically your stop distance becomes a big unknown. I will say here that ice is significantly worse than a known ammount of snow, though your worst case scenario is a combination of both.

Quote:
Something that continually puzzles me is that many pilots
are unhappy operating off an icy surface. You're Canadian.


Its not such a puzzle, just because one is Canadian doesn't mean one has to have some great love of ice and snow. I will plainly admit that while I am not unhappy flying an airplane off of an icy runway, I would still much prefer to be flying off of a runway that is preferrably near a place with a swim up bar. :wink:


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Beefitarian
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Shiny Side Up wrote:
I would still much prefer to be flying off of a runway that is preferrably near a place with a swim up bar. :wink:

I used to think that was why I needed to get an airplane. Now I have kids.


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Quote:
the scary part in most cases is taxiing


Sure. The aircraft will obviously want to weathervane into wind, and with minimal friction, it certainly will try!

Sooner or later you're going to end up pointed at a snowbank. There is no shame in this - I have been there and done that in different types of aircraft. When that happens, shut it down, get it out and reposition it by hand. You many need some help moving the aircraft by hand - I once had this happen to me in a jet. Couldn't turn around on a skinny runway. No big deal. Just don't put it into the snowbank. If you must put it into the snowbank, mags off in a single to stop the prop.


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Shiny Side Up
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:03 pm 
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Quote:
Just don't put it into the snowbank. If you must put it into the snowbank, mags off in a single to stop the prop.


One should say here that airplanes and snowbanks is probably the number one cause of bent aluminium I've seen. I would say kill the mags as well if you have more than one engine since snowbanks are often a lot tougher than one would think and have a nasty tendancy to collapse nose wheels.

Quote:
When that happens, shut it down, get it out and reposition it by hand. You many need some help moving the aircraft by hand - I once had this happen to me in a jet.


A little bit of a PDM discussion is in order here one might say. It wouldn't be the first time I've come to the airport in the morning to find a mysteriously abandoned airplane on the side of the runway or taxiway. Usually with one or more wheels in the snow - though once was interesting where the nose was stuck in a drift right up to the fuselage. The point of the matter is that in winter flying one might encounter all sorts of troubles, and its a really good idea to plan ahead. When one runs the possible risk of getting stuck in snow, for example, one might want to make sure that they have possible help available to extricate oneself from the situation. At the very least, bring one's own toque and gloves.


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Bushav8er
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:13 pm 
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What I find interesting is it appears that only the 'older, higher time' guys are commenting :roll: Prehaps the subject scares the younguns?

Ice is to be respected but not feared. I always found that in 'interesting' situations it is best to 'fly' the aircraft, even if on the ground.


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cdnpilot77
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Bushav8er wrote:
What I find interesting is it appears that only the 'older, higher time' guys are commenting :roll: Prehaps the subject scares the younguns?


Not necessarily the youngins, but rather the passengers as we are screaming bloody murder while sliding down the runway sideways. :mrgreen:

Our runway is paved, narrow (45') and long (3775') but tightly enclosed by buildings, trees, hills, and a 2' high steel fence 10' off the side of the rwy. X-winds in themselves in winter do not present much problem for us, but rather the swirling winds we get whenever the winds are above 10kts and more than 20deg off the runway and also minimal rwy maintenance. One of the downfalls of a private runway I guess. I walk out and do a walking visual inspection of the rwy every time I depart just so I know what I am dealing with, but it doesn't stop me...the owner on the other hand...

Fly safe
CP77


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Big Pistons Forever
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:53 pm 
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My aviation goal was to never have so much practice at,

-Deicing by hand
-placing and removing wing and engine covers
-preheating engines
-scraping frost off the inside of the windshield
-trying to tune the radios while wearing thick gloves, and
-taxiing,takeoff,landing on icy runways

That I got really good at all the above. 30+ years flying and Mission Accomplished

However I did once watch an episode of "Ice Pilots" while staying at a Holiday INN, so what more do I need :mrgreen:


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Doc
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:39 am 
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Sitting in JFK one icy morning waiting my turn to depart. A 747-400 landed and slid down the runway at about a 30 degree crab. Came to a stop and replied....."Now I know how a curling stone feels...."
Reminds me of Paul Simon's song, Slip Sliding Away......
Personally, I enjoy a bit of "slip sliding away", but then I like a good strong cross wind as well. And long walks on the beach, candle lit dinners, and world peace.....
Sometimes we have to deal with ice on the runways. Sometimes we have to deal with inflight ice. We shouldn't seek it out.


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Read the middle column, page 57 AOPA January 2012.

PS Flew a taildragger today on an ice-covered runway
with the windsock straight across. Still don't know what
the big deal is about landing on ice. Stick over, wing down.
Got some really nice wheelies.


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Geo
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:46 pm 
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This seems a good place to note the Lac La Biche Fly-In in March. They have an Ice Runway. (Actually I think it's an Ice Festival on the lake - but it includes an Ice Runway)

http://www.classicwheels.org/new_page_1.htm
http://www.classicwheels.org/Doc2.htm

g


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GGCC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:28 am 
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I've flown wheel and or ski equipped light aircraft both tail dragger's and trikes off of and onto solid ice, snow covered ice and ploughed ice strips and the one thing i recall is that one has to handle the engine and flight controls with, shall we say, alacrity....

Regards;
Dave


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Ref Plus 10
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:03 am 
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Location: Wherever the winds may take me...and the paycheque
I've heard stories of an IL-76 landing at Patriot Hills (Antarctica) one particularly nasty day. On touchdown, the aircraft spun a full 180, and rather than panic an freak out, the (presumably) Russian captain calmly took the engines out of reverse and pushed them forward to stop...then of course the shots were poured. As one of the "youngins" who does have what I consider to be a fair amount of polar experience, operating from both icy runways, and just ice, it's not the sliding that scares me, it's the unknown spots where you will stop sliding and ruin something. Even on glare ice, you'll still find traction where you least expect (or want) it. The biggest thing, as always, is knowing your aircraft's capabilities, as well as your own.

Ref


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just curious
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:16 am 
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Quote:

My aviation goal was to never have so much practice at:

-Deicing by hand
-placing and removing wing and engine covers
-preheating engines
-scraping frost off the inside of the windshield
-trying to tune the radios while wearing thick gloves, and
-taxiing,takeoff,landing on icy runways
That I got really good at all the above. 30+ years flying and Mission Accomplished
However I did once watch an episode of "Ice Pilots" while staying at a Holiday INN, so what more do I need











Thanks BPF. I wish you had been flying five years earlier, when I was setting my aviation goals. :oops:


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Beefitarian
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:48 am 
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Sort of related to the OP. I found out my wife's 06 Avalanche has a computer over ride on the throttle. When you go to do power slides and donuts in the empty parking lot instead of the driver controlling the power, it cuts to 800RPM. I stood on the pedal and that was all you can get. Sort of like ABS for the engine.


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Operated two different piston twin types off ice yesterday. Hardest
part was moving them out of the hangar. Don't understand what
the big deal is, esp when you have differential thrust. Intentionally
spun the second one around on the icy ramp when I got home so
that it could go into the hangar tail-first. Pumped the inside brake,
outside throttle and around it went.

If you comprehend the tiniest amount of high school physics - a
mass in motion tends to remain in motion, and the difference in
the coefficient of friction between static and sliding - it's really
just a trivial physics problem.


Had an "engine failure" (if you could call it that :roll: ) coming home.

Descending out of 7.5, 200 mph on the ASI, 200 knots on the
GPS. Nice. Then THRUM THRUM THRUM. Poor guy in the left
seat just about went through the roof. I wasn't much help - I
was laughing too hard in the right seat. It's not like we had to
do anything in a hurry. With that much energy, if Bob Hoover
had feathered both engines, he could have done aerobatics for
a good 5 minutes before landing.

All that had happened was that the left engine had run the aux
tank dry - it just needed to be switched over to the main tank,
which had plenty of fuel. It's not like the prop was about to
stop windmilling, at 200 mph!

Most of the time, piston aircraft engines, if you feed them air
and gas, will burn it and turn the crankshaft. This did not occur
to the poor guy that stuffed the Comanche with the brand new
paint job into the fence at Rockcliffe, who simply ran a tank dry
and didn't bother switching to the other tank that did have gas.

Again, this is not rocket science.

I might be wrong, but in good weather, taking an aircraft off,
flying GPS direct, straight and level, to another airport and then
landing, should not pose an intellectual challenge if most of the
big pieces stay on the aircraft.


Free advice, worth what you paid me for it: fast hands, ablur
in the cockpit, make me nervous. If you're moving fast in the
cockpit, you're probably not doing it right. Plan ahead. Stop
and think about what's going on, and what you're going to do
about it.


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trey kule
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Quote:
Don't understand what
the big deal is,


Neither do I , which begs the question as to why anyone would start a thread about it.


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Are there more than two pilots (me and TK) in Canada?

Hold on a sec - there's at least three (SSU):

Quote:
One should say here that airplanes and snowbanks is probably the number one cause of bent aluminium I've seen


Nope, no problem here TK! Everything is hunky-dory.


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trey kule
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:23 pm 
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I think you missed my point
You started a thread , and then you post...."its no big deal"...Now, to add confusion , the sense I get is you are saying it is a big deal....
Which is it...Is it a big deal for the below meridian pilots but not for super pilots? Is that it?
Maybe I just did not understand what you meant by posting "its no big deal"
BTW..Most snowbank accidents I have seen had nothing to do with landing on ice as the cause..
It is winter in Canada, and there are rows along the edges and ends of the runways, which can be a bit unforgiving if you stray off the centerline...Nothing to do with ice and everything to do with proper control on takeoffs and landings.


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Colonel Sanders
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Operating off ice, like flying "fire-breathing dragon" tailwheel
aircraft, or float flying, or IFR (etc ad nauseum) is no big
deal, if you think a little bit about the theory, perhaps get
some instruction, and acquire some experience.

Nothing p1sses me off more than say, a dentist, standing
in front of his pride and joy in a flight suit, posturing that
you have to be a hero to fly it. Nonsense. A nine year
old could probably fly it.

So much (intentional) obfuscation and nonsense in aviation,
and when you call them out on it, they become enraged.

There was a warbird website with so much crap on it ...
some poor guy was being milked by some *sshole IP
whom after 6 flights, still wouldn't let him practice taxiing
it because it was "so hard".

Obviously the *sshole IP in the flight suit was getting
free stick time - and getting paid big bucks to do it!

So I waved the bullsh1t flag and wrote out on one page
what he needed to know, to fly his "warbird".

All the *sshole IP's on the warbird site were enraged that
I deflated their hero status and stripped the mystique from
what they were doing - ripping off the rich guys that bought
warbirds.

According to them, you needed at least one kill over Iraq
to "really know how to fly a warbird".

What nonsense is continually spewed in aviation, and how
enraged people are, when you call them out on it. No wonder
the newbies crash so much, with instruction like that. There
is more nonsense in aviation than any other human endeavour,
with the possible exceptions of child rearing and offshore
boat racing.

Back to the point. You can fly off ice. You do not have
to have a combat kill in Iraq to do it, either :roll:


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LousyFisherman
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:33 pm 
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Colonel Sanders wrote:
I might be wrong, but in good weather, taking an aircraft off,
flying GPS direct, straight and level, to another airport and then
landing, should not pose an intellectual challenge if most of the
big pieces stay on the aircraft.
.


It would be difficult for me, I don't know how to use a GPS :smt040
Now if I was flying the over the canadian shield I would learn how
to use one PDQ, but my GPS are the rocks beside the aircraft that
top out above my max altitude :)

LF


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Shiny Side Up
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Quote:
Operated two different piston twin types off ice yesterday. Hardest
part was moving them out of the hangar.


This also deserves mention in "safety talk time". While snow banks bend a lot metal, icy ramps bend a lot of pilots this time of year. Personally I keep a pail of Sorels to wear around the hangar if its slippery and it comes time to manhandle airplanes around, even if its not in the arctic temperature range, the grip on ice is well worth any discomfort - even if I have to go through the trouble of switching shoes then to go flying.

A few days ago we decided not to go flying, just because of this trouble, even though it was a nice day, the ramp was treacherous from some freezing rain we had the day before and followed by a dusting of snow on top of it. My student had trouble walking even to get to the hangar and says, "I'm going to slip and break a hip out there, to hell with this" since he's in his seventies I could not help but agree since I managed to wipe out while getting the tow bar. Somehow I managed to find a small bit of decency in my black instructor heart and didn't charge him for the day.

Anyways, the point is, just be careful out there on the ramp. Even if you got a mule (hopefully with some chains) to move the planes around, just like with wheeled conveyances everywhere, slow it down a notch. Haste makes waste as they say, and its easy to get things sliding and bend some metal - over steering nosewheels when things slide and someone jack knifes a towbar is all too common.

Last point is I frequently get asked why we don't salt or sand the aerodrome surfaces, but I'll let one of the experts here answer that one.


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