Lol...they haven't even published stuff and the jazz guys are all over them with tone. Yet look what's happening in their own back yard with the discovery air group/sky regional etc....laughable at best.
I sense more nervousness and envy if anything. Nobody seems to get past the 80 percent thing. There was even a pretty reputable poster saying it's not in stone but everyone is ignoring that. Oh well.
It seems to me they have stated anything bigger stays on the the WJ OC there stewie. Funny how all your ywg friends think you have really fallen off the wagon since you went to AC and funny how you were applying for Westjet as well mr pot.
Unfortunately we have our own problems here at AC but we will continue to stick our heads in the sand. The bottom line is WJ can run their business the way they want. Set things up the way they want and at the end of the day your input won't change a thing. Get over it. Lol. Loc/stu et al.
50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
To all of those on the Teal Team reading this forum try not to get too frustrated, I'm sure things are different on the inside, they always are. People working for competing airlines should feel threatened by this.
It speaks volumes about WestJet that someone such as DaveP would take the time to post on this forum. Not to mention the open attitude towards gathering feedback from employees, feeling involved will no doubt help them sell this idea to the employees. These types of decisions normally play out behind closed doors while pilots waste their time with festering rumours and misinformation from internet forums...
That said, make sure this deal works for you (not just your stock options). Use whats happened with Regional Airlines in the U.S. as your basis for what can go wrong. The 'feeder' industry in the U.S. has reached a maturity level much more advanced than in Canada.
A couple more personal opinions if you want to keep reading;
-This is the only opportunity you will have to capture this flying.
-From what I've witnessed, the term 'feeder' refers to passengers, not pilots. Working at WJ Regional will be a career for the majority of its pilots.
-Trying not to drink too much of the "We stimulated the market, and we'll do it again kool-aid" the industry has grown in the last 15 years, and a lot of WestJets market share can be traced back to Canadian Airlines, and Canada 3000. I'm not saying WJ hasn't done a great job capturing that market share, just that they didn't create all of it. Porter has stimulated a market (the eastern triangle from YTZ) better than any Canadian carrier has in the last few years.
It speaks volumes about WestJet that someone such as DaveP would take the time to post on this forum. Not to mention the open attitude towards gathering feedback from employees, feeling involved will no doubt help them sell this idea to the employees. These types of decisions normally play out behind closed doors while pilots waste their time with festering rumours and misinformation from internet forums...
That said, make sure this deal works for you (not just your stock options). Use whats happened with Regional Airlines in the U.S. as your basis for what can go wrong. The 'feeder' industry in the U.S. has reached a maturity level much more advanced than in Canada.
A couple more personal opinions if you want to keep reading;
-This is the only opportunity you will have to capture this flying.
-From what I've witnessed, the term 'feeder' refers to passengers, not pilots. Working at WJ Regional will be a career for the majority of its pilots.
-Trying not to drink too much of the "We stimulated the market, and we'll do it again kool-aid" the industry has grown in the last 15 years, and a lot of WestJets market share can be traced back to Canadian Airlines, and Canada 3000. I'm not saying WJ hasn't done a great job capturing that market share, just that they didn't create all of it. Porter has stimulated a market (the eastern triangle from YTZ) better than any Canadian carrier has in the last few years.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Sadly, many of you are missing the point here. You are making a mistake if you reduce this to partisan perspectives and "envy" (chuckle). The bigger picture is the pilot profession and how it has been decimated everywhere. WJA managers can "ask" its' pilots to agree to a substantial pay cut for the Q400 while Rovinescu can "demand" it with a scowl. The end result is still a nameless fellow professional getting shafted. If pilots don't bother advocating for themselves can you expect any different from the public, shareholders or executives ?
To put it in perspective, our profession has a more responsiblity than anybody in the airline yet we contemplate offering ourselves at a discount. A doctor screws up an operation : patient dies. A pilot screws up...
Would a doctor take a 20 percent paycut to work in a new hospital ? Not a chance because those professionals respect themselves and each other.
Disclosure : None of this Westjet regional proposal will affect me just tired of pilots being treated like whores.
To put it in perspective, our profession has a more responsiblity than anybody in the airline yet we contemplate offering ourselves at a discount. A doctor screws up an operation : patient dies. A pilot screws up...
Would a doctor take a 20 percent paycut to work in a new hospital ? Not a chance because those professionals respect themselves and each other.
Disclosure : None of this Westjet regional proposal will affect me just tired of pilots being treated like whores.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
How about this;
Southwest is a money baking machine. They know what to do and how to do it with out killing the goose.
Alaska/Horizon can make money but history has shown that their path has incurred laid off pilots, fleet changes and struggle.
Which path would you rather take. myself personally I would stick to the printing press. Its proven. don't get greedy.
Southwest is a money baking machine. They know what to do and how to do it with out killing the goose.
Alaska/Horizon can make money but history has shown that their path has incurred laid off pilots, fleet changes and struggle.
Which path would you rather take. myself personally I would stick to the printing press. Its proven. don't get greedy.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Perhaps it's time airlines start charging proper rates for the services they provide. Based on the inflation rate of the past 40+ years, why are ticket prices virtually the same? I'm pretty sure fuel prices have gone up as well as real-estate. Why do we (the employee groups) continue to take the hit?
As much is this may be good for the Westjet people (and good people they are I migt add) i'm not sure it will be good for anyone else. AC will have to compete even further, forcing Jazz out of the CPA for the likes of bottom feeders like Skyregional. Many of us over here at Jazz will lose the good lifestyles we've worked so hard to preserve. I can't see there being any new markets created, just a shift of what's already being done, with a decrease in wages and working conditions. Is that what this industry needs?
As much is this may be good for the Westjet people (and good people they are I migt add) i'm not sure it will be good for anyone else. AC will have to compete even further, forcing Jazz out of the CPA for the likes of bottom feeders like Skyregional. Many of us over here at Jazz will lose the good lifestyles we've worked so hard to preserve. I can't see there being any new markets created, just a shift of what's already being done, with a decrease in wages and working conditions. Is that what this industry needs?
Last edited by Flaps 1 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Thats exactly it squid. When pilots get fearful of their own jobs being jeopardy they go into their comfort zone by slamming the carriers that create their insecurity.
All this talk about 80%, WJ 737 pilots feeding of their own young is COMPLETE and uselesss nonesense. If you could seee our forums, you would see there is nothing but concern being shown towards the pilots that would be flying the q400. NOTHING but concern. We want the new hires on the q400 to feel a part of the famly. Full equals. Maintaining culture is paramount. I personally think if the current pilots feel the culture is going to be sacrificed I think there would be a NO vote for the new venture. This won't work if culture is sacrificed.
We havent seen any numbers yet so lets not jump to conclusions. But lets say starting pay is 80% of the MEDIAN (1,2,7,8,9.........what is the median? Hint: it isn't 5.4)? But then lets say year 3 is 110% of the median? Just remember this is the Executives coming up with a preliminary plan. Do you really think they are going to say right off the bat, "Let's start the pilots at 120% median". Obviously not. And I am glad they don't. As an Exec that wouldn't be very responsible of them. If this venture is as successful as we all hope, the future will be very bright for the pilots.
All this talk about 80%, WJ 737 pilots feeding of their own young is COMPLETE and uselesss nonesense. If you could seee our forums, you would see there is nothing but concern being shown towards the pilots that would be flying the q400. NOTHING but concern. We want the new hires on the q400 to feel a part of the famly. Full equals. Maintaining culture is paramount. I personally think if the current pilots feel the culture is going to be sacrificed I think there would be a NO vote for the new venture. This won't work if culture is sacrificed.
We havent seen any numbers yet so lets not jump to conclusions. But lets say starting pay is 80% of the MEDIAN (1,2,7,8,9.........what is the median? Hint: it isn't 5.4)? But then lets say year 3 is 110% of the median? Just remember this is the Executives coming up with a preliminary plan. Do you really think they are going to say right off the bat, "Let's start the pilots at 120% median". Obviously not. And I am glad they don't. As an Exec that wouldn't be very responsible of them. If this venture is as successful as we all hope, the future will be very bright for the pilots.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
That is great to hear. There is hope.Legacy wrote:
All this talk about 80%, WJ 737 pilots feeding of their own young is COMPLETE and uselesss nonesense. If you could seee our forums, you would see there is nothing but concern being shown towards the pilots that would be flying the q400. NOTHING but concern. We want the new hires on the q400 to feel a part of the famly. Full equals. Maintaining culture is paramount. I personally think if the current pilots feel the culture is going to be sacrificed I think there would be a NO vote for the new venture. This won't work if culture is sacrificed.
First thing that you need to stop doing is referring to 'median'. Why not try replacing it with the word 'fair' And then go one step further - define what 'fair' means in the context of both a current WJ pilot and a future WJ (and I use this word with disdain - 'Regional') pilot. And as another poster here suggested, be aware that for many both the start and the end will be at WJ Regional, not at WJ mainline.We havent seen any numbers yet so lets not jump to conclusions. But lets say starting pay is 80% of the MEDIAN (1,2,7,8,9.........what is the median? Hint: it isn't 5.4)? But then lets say year 3 is 110% of the median? Just remember this is the Executives coming up with a preliminary plan. Do you really think they are going to say right off the bat, "Let's start the pilots at 120% median". Obviously not. And I am glad they don't. As an Exec that wouldn't be very responsible of them. If this venture is as successful as we all hope, the future will be very bright for the pilots.
-
midwingcrisis
- Rank 5
- Posts: 371
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:54 pm
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
WestJet sees C$2 billion market for regional carrier
http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessN ... CF20120119
http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessN ... CF20120119
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Long time "reader", first time poster! DaveP, honest and informative posts, good for you.DaveP wrote:Hi,
Please re read my post. In particular the set in stone piece....
-
Rotten Apple #1
- Rank 8
- Posts: 915
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:34 am
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Ah_yeah, no whoring is going to occur at WJ Regional (or as I call them, 'those regional bastards'). The working conditions will no doubt improve over time, as they have in my 9 years at WJ. Every year, in my time at MotherCorp, some little aspect of my working life gets tweaked for the better. Every time it's something I didn't ask for; though perhaps that's just my personality. I expect little and am grateful for what I get.
Consider all of the benefits of working at a company like WestJet, where our management talks the talk AND walks the walk. It's too bad that all those pilots that will end up working for WJ REG won't be as fortunate as myself; they won't get an upgrade to left seat on a 737NG after 106 weeks of employment. On the other hand, they also won't endure the three layoffs I had at Air Atlantic, Royal Aviation, and Canada 3000 (and the three moves and financial losses associated. They'll have steady employment with a financially responsible company that will continue to grow and improve. And they won't have to move, unwillingly, ever again.
I am so fortunate that I have the management and the culture that I do at my work place. DaveP knows I don't suck up; this company is, truly, special.
Consider all of the benefits of working at a company like WestJet, where our management talks the talk AND walks the walk. It's too bad that all those pilots that will end up working for WJ REG won't be as fortunate as myself; they won't get an upgrade to left seat on a 737NG after 106 weeks of employment. On the other hand, they also won't endure the three layoffs I had at Air Atlantic, Royal Aviation, and Canada 3000 (and the three moves and financial losses associated. They'll have steady employment with a financially responsible company that will continue to grow and improve. And they won't have to move, unwillingly, ever again.
I am so fortunate that I have the management and the culture that I do at my work place. DaveP knows I don't suck up; this company is, truly, special.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Can someone please tell me what "fair" is? Let's start with T4 for 5th year Q400 captain. Honestly, what's the T4 number for a Q400 skipper? Where does this money come from? How many less people will fly when you pass those costs on to the customer? (don't tell me there is infinite elasticity in the demand curve for flying). This is first year economics and it blows me away how many people, especially pilots, fail to grasp these basic economic concepts.rudder wrote: First thing that you need to stop doing is referring to 'median'. Why not try replacing it with the word 'fair' And then go one step further - define what 'fair' means in the context of both a current WJ pilot and a future WJ (and I use this word with disdain - 'Regional') pilot.
To me "fair" seems like some arbitrary value which is unrealistic and unsustainable and no firm in their right mind would pay you. I'm really getting tired of trade unionists (who BTW earn more than 99% of the worlds population) lecturing the rest of us on what we should be "demanding" for our services. All of us at WJA (WJE included) will earn a liveable wage and have probably the best job in the country.
Yes regional pilots earn less- we fly smaller aircraft generating less revenue for the company- again basic economics.
The pilots will do all right at WJE. I am far more concerned about the AME's and FA's.
I went to townhall today with the executives. I still have some reservations about a few points, but I'll be voting yes. I encourage my fellow pilots to do the same.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
One last thing just to Rotten Apple's comments to give you some background on why most of us trust our executive with looking after us.
We just got an internal memo and at the risk of divulging confidential internal information, here's the gist:
It's cold in YYC and your car may not start when you get back from your pairing.
1) If your car won't start call the YYC tow truck. If they're available, they'll come and give you a boost.
2) If they can't come, we (WJA) bought some battery booster packs. They're in the crew room. Use them to get your car started.
3) If you still can't get the car started, call crew sked and they'll arrange a taxi for you to get home.
All these things are really small and minor, but they really add up. When this regional gets up and running, they get the same WJ employee treatment. My bet will be there will be far more applications than positions.
We just got an internal memo and at the risk of divulging confidential internal information, here's the gist:
It's cold in YYC and your car may not start when you get back from your pairing.
1) If your car won't start call the YYC tow truck. If they're available, they'll come and give you a boost.
2) If they can't come, we (WJA) bought some battery booster packs. They're in the crew room. Use them to get your car started.
3) If you still can't get the car started, call crew sked and they'll arrange a taxi for you to get home.
All these things are really small and minor, but they really add up. When this regional gets up and running, they get the same WJ employee treatment. My bet will be there will be far more applications than positions.
-
commonsense
- Rank 0
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:33 pm
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
The pilots at Westjet have earned the respect of their peers through a great contract with industry leading wages. The company benefits by your industry leading productivity. Westjet can start a regional carrier with an industry leading pay-scale and still have a lower cost structure than the competition. This can be done by having a contract with a higher pilot productivity. In addition during the first few years of its existence everyone will be at the bottom of the pay scale adding to the companies cost advantage during the start-up phase. I am confident that the pilots I know at Westjet will not let this thing happen at 80% pay-scale, but if by chance it does, not only will you loose the respect of your peers, but this will be the beginning of the end of your great corporate culture. This venture is nothing like the early days of Westjet getting by on their start up capital and fighting it out with two established carriers. This is a venture being started by the number two by market share airline in Canada with the healthiest balance sheet in the industry.Rotten Apple #1 wrote:Rudder, that sounds like a threat. Grow up.
We're building a company that will be strong and give pilots lifetime employment and will be here for a long time, free from the chains of antagonism that most other outfits suffer from. Too bad you weren't on site to separate the wheat from the chaff.
How much longer do you give Jazz, Porter, and AC in their present form, if at all?
Stu, what do you propose, have management give away all the numbers before you set it up? We're in a fight for the marketplace, not for the 'movement'?
Any of you guys ever read ANY non-fiction business books?
-
HolyShitBatman!
- Rank 0
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:00 pm
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Respect? WestJet pilots were shit on for the better part of 12 years. Suddenly your respect is something we should take into consideration? That's rich...commonsense wrote:The pilots at Westjet have earned the respect of their peers through a great contract with industry leading wages. The company benefits by your industry leading productivity. Westjet can start a regional carrier with an industry leading pay-scale and still have a lower cost structure than the competition. This can be done by having a contract with a higher pilot productivity. In addition during the first few years of its existence everyone will be at the bottom of the pay scale adding to the companies cost advantage during the start-up phase. I am confident that the pilots I know at Westjet will not let this thing happen at 80% pay-scale, but if by chance it does, not only will you loose the respect of your peers, but this will be the beginning of the end of your great corporate culture. This venture is nothing like the early days of Westjet getting by on their start up capital and fighting it out with two established carriers. This is a venture being started by the number two by market share airline in Canada with the healthiest balance sheet in the industry.Rotten Apple #1 wrote:Rudder, that sounds like a threat. Grow up.
We're building a company that will be strong and give pilots lifetime employment and will be here for a long time, free from the chains of antagonism that most other outfits suffer from. Too bad you weren't on site to separate the wheat from the chaff.
How much longer do you give Jazz, Porter, and AC in their present form, if at all?
Stu, what do you propose, have management give away all the numbers before you set it up? We're in a fight for the marketplace, not for the 'movement'?
Any of you guys ever read ANY non-fiction business books?
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
We have booster packs, you don't. I'm voting yes.(WJA) bought some battery booster packs. They're in the crew room. Use them to get your car started.
Hilarious and disturbing that a booster pack buys a yes vote. I suppose the agenda is going as planned.
-
Rotten Apple #1
- Rank 8
- Posts: 915
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:34 am
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
commonsense, just curious what you think will happen to the respect from our peers within the company, i.e., the 7000 WestJetters who aren't pilots, if we vote against this proposal. Any thoughts?I am confident that the pilots I know at Westjet will not let this thing happen at 80% pay-scale, but if by chance it does, not only will you loose the respect of your peers, but this will be the beginning of the end of your great corporate culture.
pika, that's an insincere comment and you know it. It just so happened the memo came out yesterday, so my fellow pilot referenced it. Of course he's not voting yes because of a free boost.
I had a chance to attend a pilot town hall yesterday in YYZ with our CEO, EVP People, EVP revenue management, and our EVP Ops. Just them and 50 or so line pilots. I'm going to attend another one today. How many SME's out there have their executive suite engage their employee groups so openly? And give them a veto power over a strategic plan? This is why they earn our respect and our trust. It isn't about koolaid.
If you're on the outside looking in, try to give our successful company a break as it once again breaks new ground in aviation/business history. We'll make this work.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
One last thing.
In reality Gregg is betting his job against this. If this idea goes down in flames, there is a good chance Gregg could be out of a job. The last 2 outside CEO's left after making some big mistakes. On at least one other occasion, rumour has it that the pilot group lost confidence in an EVP. The pilots approached the BoD who removed the EVP. At your company's, your CEO's have made huge mistakes and instead of being shown the door, your BoD has given them giant golden handshakes.
BTW, we didn't negotiate a good contract last time around so it would benefit Jazz or Air Canada. If you get a better contract because of our wages, than I'm genuinely happy for you guys, but stop trying to dictate to us what we need in a contract and how our company needs to be structured just so you can ride our coattails.
In reality Gregg is betting his job against this. If this idea goes down in flames, there is a good chance Gregg could be out of a job. The last 2 outside CEO's left after making some big mistakes. On at least one other occasion, rumour has it that the pilot group lost confidence in an EVP. The pilots approached the BoD who removed the EVP. At your company's, your CEO's have made huge mistakes and instead of being shown the door, your BoD has given them giant golden handshakes.
BTW, we didn't negotiate a good contract last time around so it would benefit Jazz or Air Canada. If you get a better contract because of our wages, than I'm genuinely happy for you guys, but stop trying to dictate to us what we need in a contract and how our company needs to be structured just so you can ride our coattails.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Don't confuse the issue of concept with details. The idea of adding a smaller gauge aircraft to the WJ operation to open up secondary markets is a great concept. Do it in-house and make sure that you derive the benefit of preserving culture and product. I said that before. I am not sure why you need a separate identity, company, and operating certificate to do so unless there is the possibility of spinning off ownership of the subsidiary via an IPO in the future which would clearly benefit WJ shareholders. Recall that ACE ultimately ended up with $1.2B in proceeds from the Chorus/Jazz divestiture. Perhaps there is another shoe to drop here?Bede wrote:One last thing.
In reality Gregg is betting his job against this. If this idea goes down in flames, there is a good chance Gregg could be out of a job. The last 2 outside CEO's left after making some big mistakes. On at least one other occasion, rumour has it that the pilot group lost confidence in an EVP. The pilots approached the BoD who removed the EVP. At your company's, your CEO's have made huge mistakes and instead of being shown the door, your BoD has given them giant golden handshakes.
BTW, we didn't negotiate a good contract last time around so it would benefit Jazz or Air Canada. If you get a better contract because of our wages, than I'm genuinely happy for you guys, but stop trying to dictate to us what we need in a contract and how our company needs to be structured just so you can ride our coattails.
As for terms of employment, there is not much more to be said. Using your economic philosophy, WJ pilots are overpaid. $178/hr to fly a 119 seat aircraft? Unheard of. Transat makes less flying 300+ seats. The market did not set the current WJ pay rates, the WJ pilots did. Trade productivity for pay rates - great concept. Others could learn from that model.
I sincerely wish you all luck in the endeavour but you are taking this way too personal. You are getting the same vitriolic responses as Porter and Skyregional although at this point WJE is just a glimmer in the eye of the CEO. The fact that you have the ability to help shape this is in sharp contrast to the Porter and Skyregional pilots.
I believe that we as professionals have a duty to give something back to make this a better vocation and a better career for all. There is a balance to be struck between corporate allegiance and professional allegiance. Perhaps you disagree. That is your prerogative.
My last comment on this topic.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
Bede:
Was the topic of Scope brought up at the townhall meetings?
What is preventing the company from sliding 737 aircraft from inefficient routes at your mainline to the regional?
What happens if there is a contraction of the number of FINs at your mainline, what happens to those pilots?
Do they maintain their existing rates to fly a Q400?
Would that mean that the bottom position on the Q400 would be eliminated to accommodate the downgraded mainline pilot?
If layoffs are necessary do you layoff the most recent hire between the two airlines or just the bottom Regional position?
It's great how positive WJ employees are towards their employer. Wish I had that where I work. However, there has never been a "dark and stormy night" at your company.... yet. With multiple aircraft types, multiple bases and multiple pay structures (work conditions), you have officially killed the culture that made it a success and should plan NOW for the day that your executives want the same out of your labour group like elsewhere. I am grateful for my forefathers who had the insight to protect the flying and WAWCON at my airline. Pilots always plan to cover their asses. Now is the time to protect WJ future asses.
Was the topic of Scope brought up at the townhall meetings?
What is preventing the company from sliding 737 aircraft from inefficient routes at your mainline to the regional?
What happens if there is a contraction of the number of FINs at your mainline, what happens to those pilots?
Do they maintain their existing rates to fly a Q400?
Would that mean that the bottom position on the Q400 would be eliminated to accommodate the downgraded mainline pilot?
If layoffs are necessary do you layoff the most recent hire between the two airlines or just the bottom Regional position?
It's great how positive WJ employees are towards their employer. Wish I had that where I work. However, there has never been a "dark and stormy night" at your company.... yet. With multiple aircraft types, multiple bases and multiple pay structures (work conditions), you have officially killed the culture that made it a success and should plan NOW for the day that your executives want the same out of your labour group like elsewhere. I am grateful for my forefathers who had the insight to protect the flying and WAWCON at my airline. Pilots always plan to cover their asses. Now is the time to protect WJ future asses.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
So here are some points to consider:
Money aside (that's TBD) new hires will enjoy;
FLICA, non seniority bidding, vacation bidding, the same travel perks we have (first come first serve) same profit share, and ( assuming you are in good standing) a guaranteed position at mainline.
Not to mention a pilot group comprised of of many former regional pilots who are doing all we can to improve your working conditions and keep it from becoming "us and them".
Pretty damn good I'd say.
This will also open other doors Down the road so good things to come.
Money aside (that's TBD) new hires will enjoy;
FLICA, non seniority bidding, vacation bidding, the same travel perks we have (first come first serve) same profit share, and ( assuming you are in good standing) a guaranteed position at mainline.
Not to mention a pilot group comprised of of many former regional pilots who are doing all we can to improve your working conditions and keep it from becoming "us and them".
Pretty damn good I'd say.
This will also open other doors Down the road so good things to come.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
No shortage of opinions about all this! Just curious if anything has been discussed regarding bases? YYC? YYZ? Anywhere else? Prairies? East coast?
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
The feeling is YYZ and YYC but like everything time will tell.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
This discussion is a textbook example of why seniority systems are a double edged sword. While the company is stable or expanding, life is great as you automatically move up due to attrition, retirement and growth. But during retraction, things get ugly because either you move down the list automatically and your quality of life is reduced, or you leave the company and start over again because your seniority doesn't come with you.
Pilots on this forum will go on at length about putting the professional association ahead of the company association, but are inexplicably happy to maintain a seniority system that places control of their careers in the hands of one company. Managers in union shops know full well that after you have put a few years in, you aren't leaving - you might fight and make life difficult, but you won't walk. They also know that the senior folks would be unwise to cause too much damage because if the company goes, it's game over for them. You can't kill the golden goose, but you can still beat it to within an inch of it's life until you have something resembling Air Canada and Friends.
If pilots got paid the way other professionals do, based on years experience and certifications, you Jazz fellas wouldn't need to break down in tears when a new competitor shows up and ruins the monopoly. If anything, there are now two employers willing to bid for your skillset. When Imperial Oil opens a mine next door, Suncor's petroleum engineers don't need to have a meltdown. They just get back to work, and if their work goes elsewhere, they just follow it. Why don't AC/Jazz folks just figure out how to adapt instead of desperately trying to hang onto the glory days. Dinosaurs used to be big and mighty too; where are they all now?
Pilots on this forum will go on at length about putting the professional association ahead of the company association, but are inexplicably happy to maintain a seniority system that places control of their careers in the hands of one company. Managers in union shops know full well that after you have put a few years in, you aren't leaving - you might fight and make life difficult, but you won't walk. They also know that the senior folks would be unwise to cause too much damage because if the company goes, it's game over for them. You can't kill the golden goose, but you can still beat it to within an inch of it's life until you have something resembling Air Canada and Friends.
If pilots got paid the way other professionals do, based on years experience and certifications, you Jazz fellas wouldn't need to break down in tears when a new competitor shows up and ruins the monopoly. If anything, there are now two employers willing to bid for your skillset. When Imperial Oil opens a mine next door, Suncor's petroleum engineers don't need to have a meltdown. They just get back to work, and if their work goes elsewhere, they just follow it. Why don't AC/Jazz folks just figure out how to adapt instead of desperately trying to hang onto the glory days. Dinosaurs used to be big and mighty too; where are they all now?
-
Old fella
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2476
- Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
- Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.
Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out
"Dinosaurs used to be big and mighty too; where are they all now?"
The was one big dinosaur in the early 80's called "Peoples Express", even had the biggies B747. The glory days were to be over then as well if I remember as I was very much around then........
The was one big dinosaur in the early 80's called "Peoples Express", even had the biggies B747. The glory days were to be over then as well if I remember as I was very much around then........
