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Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

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Airbrake

Post subject: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:33 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:50 pm
Posts: 97

Wish this was not happening

http://m.ctv.ca/topstories/20120124/air ... .html#menu

Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks
The Canadian Press

An Air Canada jet lands at the airport in Halifax in this Friday, June 10, 2011 file photo. (THE CANADIAN PRESS/Andrew Vaughan)

TORONTO — Air Canada's pilots has accused the airline of abandoning efforts to negotiate a new contract with the help of a federal conciliator in a move to foster a "fake crisis."

The Air Canada Pilot's Association, which represents about 3,000 pilots at Air Canada (TSX:AC.B), said Tuesday that the carrier is trying to engineer a conflict without a serious effort to negotiate a deal.

Association president Paul Strachan said the airline did not table a proposal within the 60-day deadline as called for in the conciliation process, then put down a last minute offer after the union agreed to extend the process.

Now, however, that Air Canada is refusing to continue the talks, Strachan said.

"It's obvious that the airline's executives want to run out the legislated time clock so they can foist a fake crisis on the federal government in the hope that Ottawa will impose arbitration," Strachan said.

"The federal government should be as angry as our pilots that Air Canada executives are playing these games. The Minister of Labour should tell Air Canada to get back to the bargaining table with a genuine proposal aimed at a fair settlement."

The airline could not be immediately reached for comment.

It has been a tense six months for Air Canada and its employees.

The pilots rejected an earlier tentative agreement last May and have continued to work under terms of the existing agreement, which expired in March.

Air Canada reached a tentative collective agreement with the union that represents its flight dispatchers and a tentative contract with 6,800 flight attendants in June.

The agreements followed a three-day strike by Air Canada's customer service workers in June, represented by the Canadian Auto Workers union, over key issues such as pensions and wages.

The two sides came to an agreement shortly after federal Labour Minister Lisa Raitt prepared back to work legislation.

Under the Canada Labour Code, federal conciliation expires after 60 days unless both parties agree to its extension.

The two sides will now enter a 21-day "cooling off" period before either party can take action.

Strachan said the pilots will continue to be open to bargaining during the period.

"Air Canada pilots remain committed to reaching a negotiated settlement. We are willing to meet with the company, with or without the assistance of the federal government, to continue working towards a new agreement," he said.

"We have been waiting more than a decade for this opportunity and have no intention of walking away from the bargaining table."

The union says the pilots have not been able to negotiate a contract since Air Canada underwent restructuring in 2003 and says they now earn less than they did 10 years ago.

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SilentMajority

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:28 pm

Rank 2

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:57 pm
Posts: 76

A question here..

Who did all of the talking for the 1st 60 days of this company manufactured process? ACPA? If so Why?

Did the company just sit back (listening attentively of course) while we rambled on....all the while watching the clock slowly run down. If I understand it correctly, we hadn't even finished our version of wages and pension??

Knowing that there were potentially only 60 days in which to formally negotiate and having seen this movie (recently) twice before involving our new majority Government's version of collective bargaining......why didn't we sit down, shut up and find out what they were really planning..... with some time left on the clock?....Like maybe 30 days? Okay then, 20 days.

Why do I get the feeling that the company has us right there where they want us and that we followed their script right to the letter?

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rudder

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:02 am

Rank 8

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 815

You are negotiating against a former M&A lawyer and professional lobbyist and wondering why you are losing? It is because you are playing his game in his preferred environment. Your lawyers are not smarter than him and your advisors apparently haven't figured out the game plan either. Is there time left? Perhaps. Doing more of the same and hoping for a successful outcome won't get you there.

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vic777

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:30 am

Rank 6

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 421

AC Pilots must be formally declared as an essential Service by the Government. No other Pilot Group, just AC Pilots must be declared an essential Service. Then let the Arbitrators grant us West Jet Salaries, for the narrow bodies.

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Norwegianwood

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:49 am

Rank 4

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:16 pm
Posts: 236

Surely, all you really intelligent pilots out there were expecting this, right?
Tell me you were and welcome to the hardball hall of dealing with AC and their pals on the hill, that's right the "Harperites"!
Now off to the foxholes and keep your head's down because this will not please anybody except the "suits".......
Look over your shoulders and see what they did to the other unions. Expect no different!
NW

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CanadianEh

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:55 am

Rank 6

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:00 pm
Posts: 408
Location: YXU

Everyone call in sick! Power in numbers.

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klacker

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:01 am

Rank 0

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:58 am
Posts: 4

CanadianEh wrote:

Everyone call in sick! Power in numbers.

Great!!!! That will really garner support from the feds. Just play into AC's hands and create the crisis they want, all courtesy of ACPA.
That's so "Canadian Eh".

OR.....Maybe we should fire the NC and the MEC...oh what the heck let's recall all the LEC's as well. That should tell AC we really mean business now!!!!

What are you guys thinking?

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TeePeeCreeper

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:34 am

Rank 4

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:25 pm
Posts: 235
Location: in the bush

CanadianEh wrote:

Everyone call in sick! Power in numbers.

That's what the Liat crews did a few weeks ago... Seems that their airline is still about to go down the way of the doodoo bird did...

Shame, a pilot group that actually stands up to management arm in arm....

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DrBoeing

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:40 am

Rank 3

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:29 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Canada

This was the game plan from the instant Lisa Raitt stated she would legislate the sale agents back to work! AC management knew they had a constant ACE in the hole. They can now drag their feet and in the end let the government impose a contract.
What the unions need to do is band together and challenge any imposed contract in a court of law. The feds are saying that we are an essential service. How can a private corporation be deemed an essential service? If you look up what is deemed an essential service it states a sector of government, vis a vis, police, firefighters, nurses etc etc etc, no where does it say Air Canada!

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Sea2Sky

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:41 am

Rank 2

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:00 am
Posts: 93
Location: Floating

Air Canada has not been deemed an essential service by anybody. The company has taken no position on it. The whole CIRB applicaton back in October was nothing more than a stall tactic by Raitt that allowed Parliament enough time to return from the Thanksgiving week off and halt any work action that might have been initiated by the FAs.

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CanadianEh

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:18 pm

Rank 6

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:00 pm
Posts: 408
Location: YXU

This is like watching a very one sided hockey game play by play. The pilots have very few cards to play compared to management, the power they have is their ability to fly the aircraft that generate the revenue for the company. The question is, how can that be leveraged in an intelligent and legal manner to help these negotiations. My earlier remark about calling in sick was merely a suggestion that if official action cannot be taken (ie: striking) then maybe some sort of unofficial action could be taken. Below is a picture of the January 2012 Harvard Business Review about how treating your employees well can lead to increased profitability. The bottom line is that management and the pilots both want to see this company do well, but cutting employees wages across the board, threatening to outsource job to an LCC and pissing on what morale these guys have left is not the answer... all while collecting exorbitant bonuses.

Attachment:

bb99f81f4e99f65a437eb30bce953fbc.jpg [ 35.12 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]

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vic777

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:52 pm

Rank 6

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 421

CanadianEh wrote:

The pilots have very few cards to play compared to management, the power they have is their ability to fly the aircraft that generate the revenue for the company. The question is, how can that be leveraged ...

Uh, gee, I dunno ...

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Rockie

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:32 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 4859

CanadianEh wrote:

The bottom line is that management and the pilots both want to see this company do well,

Air Canada is a coldly impersonal place to work where the best management can come up with to improve employee morale is their picture on a web page and an occasional $25 Tim Horton's card for not getting sick. They also generously provide a $5 phone card (that you have to physically go ask for) to crew members required to spend Christmas away from their family in some lonely hotel room so they can phone home and hear what they're missing.

Our first line of supervisors are removed from the average employee because for the most part they're in the office doing a 9-5 job under completely different working conditions than the people they are responsible for. The remoteness increases from there so that by the time you get to the senior executive suite you are living on a completely different planet. Air Canada senior management has not shown any evidence they recognize the earning power of an engaged, content work force. Too bad. It truly is the unlocked potential of this company just waiting to be unleashed by a smart management.

Last edited by Rockie on Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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prop2jet

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:15 pm

Rank 6

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:50 pm
Posts: 459

You don't have to be an "Essential Service" in order to be legislated back to work. As has been demonstrated in the past, if there is a vast overreaching threat to the economic engine, the Government can enact BTWL and force a return to work. Raitt's musings about declaring the "Economy" as an essential service would speed up the process by eliminating the right of any labour group to strike. Given that just about any business participates in the Economy, it would amount to (be it a stretch) making the action of going on strike - illegal for everyone in this country.

And they call this democracy... :shock:

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Rockie

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:32 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 4859

prop2jet wrote:

Minister Raitt has publicly stated this government's intention to open the Canada Labour Act to change. Does anybody think it's to provide more protection for Labour?

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Old fella

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:47 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 760

Rockie wrote:

CanadianEh wrote:

The bottom line is that management and the pilots both want to see this company do well,

Rockie, old cock, old sod. Cynicism comes with old age – somehow I don’t think you are old enough yet. Funny that, when” the coldly impersonal place to work” puts forth requests to increase the number of boys and girls to occupy front end seats on their fast moving aluminum, the fermentation process goes on bust – judging from the commentary on this site. How much time ya got/what kind/where/from/degree or diploma/military or civilian/glass or 705/ Canadian or other/how come you did or I didn’t/ EMB FO or 67RP. You get the drift, hundreds of questions from hundreds who want to join the coldly impersonal place to work.
A $25 Tim’s card/$5 bell tell card – somebody did take the time to think about you, however small and no I won’t bring up the old cliché when I was your age we always appreciated any effort by anybody. Holidays and XMAS is rough, always was like me telling my 5 and 3 yr. old kids on XMAS eve (many moons ago) I was stuck in YYR and may not get back – it happened. I am of the opinion you would be remiss in your commentary if you don’t acknowledge that as far as destinations and equipment (aircraft types) you work for the best airline in Canada – bar none. The support/infrastructure available to you at Air Canada in the course of your flying duties is vastly superior to what many of us ever experienced – bar none on that either.
As for your MGT, well as per usual, it is always open season no matter where or with whom. Hopefully you haven’t experienced mgt at places I worked – the Regulator and the Service provider. A good many (not all) are lucky to be where they were because they couldn’t get positions at your airline or others; they lack the skill-sets to get there. I am not taking pot shots at you Rockie, but just have a little prospective. You made the grade at AC, worked hard to get there and maintain you position…….

Relax, have a glass of white with your sweetie, hell I will even recommend: stay away from the vanilla oaked-up California lumber tasting Chardonnay, demi-sec Vouvay from central Loire Valley, FR will do you good at 12deg C…….

:drinkers:

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Rockie

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:25 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 4859

Old Fella, old cock. old sod. I'm way past cynicism and long ago moved on to resignation. The reason I'm at Air Canada is because it is (for what I want) still the best game in the country. That doesn't mean I cannot be appalled at the rock bottom relationship between the employees and their employer though. Some of that may indeed be caused by the employees themselves over the decades, but the bottom line is the only people with the power to change it is management. They show no inclination toward doing so. Quite the opposite in fact as recent events are proving.

There is a much better way to run this railroad and one only needs to look west for inspiration. They don't have to become Westjet and for sure I wouldn't want them to, but having your employees aid your battle against the competition is infinitely better than opening up another front against the very people working for you. Simple common sense that even the most basically enlightened managements have figured out.

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Old fella

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:57 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 760

Resignation is the first step for old age!! Despite all, it is a positive sign to see Air Canada filling pilot vacancies and giving hope for those who wish to avail of an airline career, for that some will be thankful.Like you said (and many agree), AC is the best gig in town.....

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CanadianEh

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:58 pm

Rank 6

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:00 pm
Posts: 408
Location: YXU

Air Canada Comments on Negotiations with ACPA

MONTREAL, Jan. 24, 2012 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada confirmed today that it remains at the negotiating table awaiting a response from ACPA, the union representing its pilots, to a comprehensive proposal tabled by the Company on Monday January 16, 2012.

Air Canada has been in negotiations with ACPA since October 2010. Following the rejection of a first tentative agreement reached in May 2011, the Company waited six months for ACPA to return to the negotiating table. The two sides have now been in discussions assisted by a federally-appointed conciliator since early November 2011.

Following two separate extensions to the conciliation timeline, the negotiation process is advancing to mediation, as permitted by the Canada Labour Code. In this phase, the conciliator will assume the role of mediator and will continue to oversee the process to bring to conclusion the talks started in late 2010.

Contrary to certain allegations by union representatives, Air Canada is not abandoning its efforts to negotiate a new contract with its pilots. Indeed, Air Canada remains at the table awaiting a response to its most recent offer. In light of two separate recent extensions to the conciliation period, it is also inaccurate to say that Air Canada has refused requests to extend conciliation timelines.

In view of the time elapsed since the start of negotiations towards a new collective agreement, the Company is of the view that the 21-day mediation period provides ample time to the parties to reach agreement.

ACPA represents approximately 3,000 pilots employed by Air Canada, and its collective agreement expired on March 31, 2011.

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Rockie

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:16 pm

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 4859

Old fella wrote:

Resignation is the first step for old age!!

And here I thought it was malfunctioning equipment... :wink:

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Old fella

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:08 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 760

Rockie wrote:

Old fella wrote:

Resignation is the first step for old age!!

And here I thought it was malfunctioning equipment... :wink:

If malfunction doesn't "straighten out".... consult MEL under the "blue" tab, monitoring progress is essential....

:mrgreen:

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Rockie

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:21 am

Rank 11

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 4859

And if the equipment subsequently operates for more than four hours consult a mechanic.

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Old fella

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:07 am

Rank 8

Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 760

Make sure said maintenance person carries the correct tool”box”. Discrepancies have been noted as to who fits what and where which has led to confusion, resulting in delays. Air Canada strives to be a “safe’ airline. :!:

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777longhaul

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:49 am

Rank 3

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:25 am
Posts: 120

I have never met Rockie, nor do I know who he/she is?

I dont know how long on the tooth she/he is.

I dont see him/her as anything less, than 100% correct, on her/his take of AC, AC management, and especially, acpa.

I hear....that he/she is junior, (in AC that could be 10 or so years) and that he/she is not close to retirement, but I do know, that he/she is astute, and very up, on union workings, (acpa/alpa) and the day to day operations, of AC and its, so called, managment team. Now, lets see.......To the AC team ...just go and go, stock is now less than a buck, spelt with a "b"

Just an observation, from the side lines. Go Rockie, go! Thank you for staying the course.

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ratherbee

Post subject: Re: Air Canada pilots union: airline has abandoned talks

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:58 am

Rank 2

Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 66

Sea2Sky,

ACPA already gave it's position on essential service to the Senate:

"I wanted to address the question that the senator asked about the essential service. There are few countries on this planet — I can think of two, maybe three — where you can fly an airplane for five hours and never leave the country. It is a broad country, and I believe is an essential service.

I heard some numbers, we have 24,000 employees. I heard our support network is in the tune of a quarter million people. Jobs depend on us flying every morning at seven o'clock. I believe it is essential.

If Air Canada goes on strike, there are other options to fly. There are always other options, but not covering the network we have. Not many countries this size have one airline. The United States has dozens of airlines that fly transport category jets, where Air Canada has one. We have WestJet, but they provide a different service than we do. There would be a crisis to get the people from coast to coast, including representatives back to Ottawa from their ridings all across the country, if we were not flying."

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