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Blue Yonder
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:19 am 
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/air-canada-to-allow-older-pilots/article2318067/

I was reading the G&M Saturday about Air Canada allowing pilots to fly past 60.

I found it curious that they buried within the article that Air Canada also plans to
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...outsource flying in some instances, notably on jets and turboprops that seat up to 119 passengers.

How would this effect the pilot group?
Would this proposed outsourcing of flying trickle down to Tier 2 fliying?
More of a negotiating tactic?
Or is this the LLC?

Blue


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Sage
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:33 am 
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Just management posturing. They are trying to rile up the membership in hopes that we will do something illegal. They will in turn run to Momma Ratt and whine until she proposes legislation to impose TA1. It's all part of the negotiations game that is going on now. We have scope clauses that prevents this from happening.


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Localizer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:18 pm 
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You violated your own scope clause by allowing the company to bring in Sky Regional. Your resentment toward the other tier 2 operator has blinded your view of the big picture. Sadly the domino's are beginning to fall .. Posturing? Maybe .. but the company has cheaper things in mind.

I hope your negotiators can do the impossible and put the worms back in the can .. my future depends on it just as much as yours. G'luck.


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Mig29
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:31 pm 
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I would hate to see this happen, as it will create a domino effect, lowering everyone's wages and working conditions.

But I'm pretty sure some bean counters out there are busy at work and have already made future plans how to implement this, dividing us even more as professional and colleagues.


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Takeoff OK
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Localizer wrote:
You violated your own scope clause by allowing the company to bring in Sky Regional.


The nail has been hit on the head. There is no greater threat to your Big Red career objectives than what the previous MEC did with the Sky Regional deal. It doesn't matter what happens with your pension if you end up out of a job, which this WILL eventually lead to for many if it is not nipped in the bud. A precedent has been set, and if you can't get the cat back into the bag now, management will use it against you to erode your QOL with every new contract or potential "bankruptcy" that comes along.


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dhc2pilot
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:07 am 
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Sounds like it won't matter anyways....company is starting a low cost carrier without the pilots.
Looks like we will all be out of work soon if the rumours are true.


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Takeoff OK
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:01 am 
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dhc2pilot wrote:
Sounds like it won't matter anyways....company is starting a low cost carrier without the pilots.


No, it does matter. Every effort must be put forward to prevent an LCC with a separate list. An LCC with current in-house AC pilots is an entirely different beast (and likely a losing venture, regardless). But an LCC with a separate list will indeed be the beginning of the end for the current long-term AC QOL.


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bearinmind
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:39 am 
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This should not suprise anyone. The management does not have any fear of the union and will do whatever they want to make the company what they see best. The worst our union will do is file a strongly worded grievance. They staple those greivances together, flip them over and keep them by the phone as scrap paper. If they want to violate scope again they will just go ahead and do it just like they did last time. I feel sorry for the people we just hired, they are going to be outsourced.


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yycflyguy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:28 am 
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bearinmind wrote:
This should not suprise anyone. The management does not have any fear of the union and will do whatever they want to make the company what they see best. The worst our union will do is file a strongly worded grievance. They staple those greivances together, flip them over and keep them by the phone as scrap paper. If they want to violate scope again they will just go ahead and do it just like they did last time. I feel sorry for the people we just hired, they are going to be outsourced.


Absolutely wrong. Call your LEC representative ASAP as you are terribly misinformed.


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bluemic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:02 am 
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Qantas? LCC? Or...maybe just a different way to skin the cat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68f_JdPm ... e=youtu.be


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bearinmind
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Dont get me wrong, I dont want to belittle the job that they are trying to do for us, but they dont have the tools to do the job. They are tireless and beleive in what they are doing. But..

The government has all the cards and will turn on us in a heartbeat. We will be forced to take whatever comes our way. If we dont roll over and take it we go to bancrupsy and we can throw out the scope protection. We have lost 300 percent of our shareholder value this year and are headed to some type of either buyout or hackjob to keep us afloat. CR had this plan last negotiation and they got rid of him because the union refused to deal with him. Its no coincidence that he is back.

This was the plan from the beginning. We missed the mark by forgetting who the real threat is, the government.
I have been following the mec and NC closely and I know what they are saying.

I realy hope i'm wrong.

lots of spelling errors, my bad :roll:


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yycflyguy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Please call a union rep. It would only take a 5 minute call to correct your assumptions. Less time than it takes to post erroneous views here. PM me if you need a number.... and then download a spelling and grammar program.


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Localizer
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Yycflyguy, Bearinmind isn't too far off the mark at all .. Fact. The present government has no love for unions or Canadian workers in general. Fact. If CR plunges AC into CCAA all contracts are up in the air.

Will the Shark get his way? .. Only time will tell .. but he seems very determined this time.


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yycflyguy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:49 am 
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Localizer wrote:
Yycflyguy, Bearinmind isn't too far off the mark at all .. Fact. The present government has no love for unions or Canadian workers in general. Fact. If CR plunges AC into CCAA all contracts are up in the air.

Will the Shark get his way? .. Only time will tell .. but he seems very determined this time.


Maybe I am getting testy, but here it goes again.

CR can't just plunge AC into CCAA. You have to go before a bankruptcy judge and prove insolvency. This isn't the case!
Liquidity Highlights

At September 30, 2011, Air Canada's cash, cash equivalents and short-term investments totalled $2.179 billion which represented 19 per cent of 12-month trailing operating revenues.

In the third quarter of 2011, free cash flow of $4 million decreased $108 million from the third quarter of 2010, largely due to a decrease in net cash from operations, consistent with the reduction in third quarter EBITDAR, an increase in capital expenditures and the impact of higher pension payments. This year, Air Canada expects to make current and past service payments to its pension plans of $308 million.

In addition, for the full year 2012, Air Canada plans to increase its full year 2012 system capacity by 0 to 1.5 per cent when compared to the full year 2011.

Air Canada expects full year 2011 depreciation, amortization and impairment expense to decrease by $75 million from the full year 2010, unchanged from what was disclosed in Air Canada's news release dated August 4, 2011.

In a nutshell, 2011 was so-so. Some losses on foreign exchange but improved load factors on a small capacity increase. In 2012 they expect to increase capacity with cost reductions on depreciation and amortization. The annual report for 2011 is expected on the 10th of February. It is a balancing act between acting broke with the unions and showing investors the true health of the company. After the labour groups all sign on to long term CA expect nothing but positive news, shareholder payouts and more distribution of the wealth among the executives.

There will be no outsourcing of pilot jobs. It is a lame attempt by the company to put fear into the labour group. All it has done is further unified the pilots and pissed them off at their facade of bargaining in good faith.

This will get really testy over the next week.


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Localizer
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Yycflyguy, no need to get testy .. you can't control the present situation so there's no need for senseless worry ..

Maybe I should qualify my statements with past facts. I don't believe its difficult for a company to file for CCAA or Chapter 11. If we look south .. Northwest Airlines started a paint spree in order to blow cash before filing. A bigger question mark would be American Airlines .. they have millions in the bank and still managed to file Chapter 11. Yes these are American companies, but the process is virtually the same in both countries.

There are a lot of people that believe another AC - CCAA filing was inevitable .. I tend to agree with them. The problem wasn't fixed the first time around .. will it be fixed the second time? Doubt it. Your managment can't seem to shake the crown corporation mentality, there are too many managers and executives with their hands in the cookie jar. Actually .. there are too many managers and executives in general.


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rudder
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:28 pm 
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If AC filed tomorrow they would get court protection, period. This topic is kicked around by Bay Street types on a regular basis. The only advantage that AC might have with the extra cash on hand is not requiring a DIP lender in order to meet day-to-day expenses during the time under protection. Next time around it will not be 18 months under CCAA, more like 6-8 months. Perhaps the saving grace is that the Canadian Act does not explicitly contain the provisions of CH 11.13c in the US which permit the court to open closed collective agreements and impose terms if necessary. But then again, we do have Ms. Raitt :smt018

What is lost in the whole discussion about the pilot contract is what will come of AC post-2013 when full required pension contributions are reinstated. That cash on hand will evaporate. The Fed in the US have already said that interest rates are going nowhere so don't haul out that stale "interest rates will fix everything" solution.

Somethings got to give. CR's plan is certainly not the answer. But somebody better come up with something because status quo will not provide security for anybody that relies on AC for a paycheque.


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FADEC
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Scope will not protect you; it is not working!

As long as ACPA accepts flying going outside; any flying, CR can whipsaw the Pilot Group. This started when AC first set up the Connectors and Mainline Pilots got laid off.

Think new thoughts bring all the flying back into the Mainline; AC Pilots can fly Beech 1900's, or whatever has wings. AC simply needs a rate that will make that work.

It makes no sense to have duplicate Ground Staff, equipment etc.

Breaking a Company into smaller pieces only ends one way; you go out of business, because the overheads become a larger piece of the operation, and eventually overwhelm everything else.

Fewer employees now doesn't get rid of Pension obligations. Shrinking a Company eventually means shedding those costs somehow.

Get your minds off the FP60 thing; it is done, but it has worked to distract the Pilot Group from real issues; move on.


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yycflyguy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Quote:
What is lost in the whole discussion about the pilot contract is what will come of AC post-2013 when full required pension contributions are reinstated. That cash on hand will evaporate. The Fed in the US have already said that interest rates are going nowhere so don't haul out that stale "interest rates will fix everything" solution.


That is a very good point.

It was presented at the last GCM that if the "normal" retirement age goes from 60 to 62.5 the deficit is eliminated as well. Still does not excuse the funding vacation the company took when the market was rocking. It should be their issue.

I am so pissed off at this point that I would accept a DB to DC conversion just so I can pack up my net take my puck and go play on a different rink.

Quote:
Scope will not protect you; it is not working!


Other than CR whipsawing Jazz and Mainline during CCAA (when the contract is technically "open")and the CRJs ending up at Jazz, when has it not protected ACPA? When they violated our scope for freight flying we got a paycheck. The only reason SkyRegional exists was thanks to a misguided MEC chair who politically pushed a TEMPORARY let through. It is before an arbitrator now along with a bucket full of other grievances.


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rudder
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:54 pm 
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yycflyguy wrote:
Quote:
It was presented at the last GCM that if the "normal" retirement age goes from 60 to 62.5 the deficit is eliminated as well. Still does not excuse the funding vacation the company took when the market was rocking. It should be their issue.


With all due respect, the pension deficit issue extends well beyond the pilots.


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Norwegianwood
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:23 pm 
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And then there's an item like this...........


http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... utperform/


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yycflyguy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:04 pm 
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rudder wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:
Quote:
It was presented at the last GCM that if the "normal" retirement age goes from 60 to 62.5 the deficit is eliminated as well. Still does not excuse the funding vacation the company took when the market was rocking. It should be their issue.


With all due respect, the pension deficit issue extends well beyond the pilots.


Yes it does but I can only fight one battle so my corporate vision ends with the pilot group.

Norwegianwood wrote:
And then there's an item like this...........


http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... utperform/


Be interesting to hear how the company claims to be broke when the analysts have placed a sector outperform on the stock and it has risen more than 35% this week.


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bearinmind
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:37 pm 
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In my humble opinion, it makes more business sense to go bankrupt sooner rather than later. The more time that we give Westjet to get their regional airline up and running, the less time we have to come up with an immediate counter to their plan. I think that this is the strategy of CR to force the negotiating process to move faster to the final confrontation. It might be the catalist to get the CCAA pushed through.

Im not smarter than the financial experts, but the market sure did like the rumor outsourcing regional flying. Our stocked popped up 30% this week on that rumor. I did look at the highlights of the latest financial report, but can get over the fact that we have a $1.20 stock (average this week) and we are loosing 0.36/share. There will be no trouble finding just cause for filing. AMR in the US, has a ton more cash and assets and had no trouble getting the chapter 11 judge to come up with approval on layoffs, renogiated labor contracts, AND taking delivery of new aircraft.

Our CEO has one job to do, break labour. He won't be around for the reconstruction, he is the baseball equivalent of a closer, good for a couple innings and then take the money and go. He needs the LCC up and running ASAP, the shareholders have spoken.

None of this is good for us.

My message to the NEC, small gains, short contract (3 years or less) and no changes to scope. Delay the strike vote for as long as possible, make CR lock us out. The only way we can get the arbitrator on our side. If we get that we wont have to deal with CR next round, he will have failed.


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