Dash 8 single engine approach.

[Commonwealth]

No respect is there Cat Driver?

[Cat Driver]

I just love this forum where else could one find such entertainment?

Or better yet, just have this post deleted.

Why would I want your post deleted?

If I wanted it deleted it would negate my opportunity to explain the situation I found myself in on that night.


So lets start.

Sounds like you busted minimums on that approach,

Yes I did.

or is there a Cat 3 certified DC3 out there I haven’t heard about?

The type of airplane I was flying had little to do with the fact I was flying in the North and the weather went from suitable for the trip I had filed to ice fog before I got to my destination which was Whitehorse, and having lost an engine enroute Whitehorse my destination was the best choice for the approach taking into consideration my fuel and the weather at any other airport within reach.

Or is there a let in your SOPs that allow you to descend below minimums in the event of an emergency?

First off in that era and the fact the airplane was privately registered to Inexco Oil the term SOP's did not exist. But we did have rules and check lists that were quite similar to what one can find today. One of the rules of survival we used was good airmanship and also in the event of the loss of an engine we were to land at the nearest available airport. In that case all things taken into consideration Whitehorse was the safest choice I had.

Also with the weather phenomena " ice fog " that had moved over the airport just prior to my arrival and the fact that I had practiced doing the approach to that runway using the radar altimeter as an aid I knew it was possible to safely find the runway in zero zero weather...Thanks to several of my teachers in the past I was programmed to train for such an event which helped immensely when I was faced with the need to perform such an approach and landing......furthermore Edmonton center and Whitehorse radio were well aware of my situation and my decision to land in the prevailing weather condition and their only concern was our completing the landing safely.

Or could it be that your sickening self righteous arrogant hypocrisy on this board in regards to safety has finally been exposed?

Like I have already said, this forum brings out the best and the worst in people, many of the people who read these threads know me and I am fairly certain the even if I come across as being sickening, self righteous and arrogant I doubt if they would believe I am a liar.

Now go ahead and spew your usual drivel about it was at night and there weren’t any min vis requirements for the approach and you had the lights at minimums.

As a matter of fact it was at night, which helped with being able to sort of see the airport lighting ...just a bit of course.

Hope the foregoing explains some of your doubts as to what transpired that night forty years ago...by the way what were you flying forty years ago?

[fish4life]

I had a very tense trip many years ago in a DC3 with one feathered and was forced to do the approach in zero, zero in ice fog.....thankfully I had been trained well in my past and was able to safely land it. And it did have an autopilot but we did not have it engaged.[/quote]

Sounds like you busted minimums on that approach, or is there a Cat 3 certified DC3 out there I haven’t heard about? Or is there a let in your SOPs that allow you to descend below minimums in the event of an emergency? Or could it be that your sickening self righteous arrogant hypocrisy on this board in regards to safety has finally been exposed?

Now go ahead and spew your usual drivel about it was at night and there weren’t any min vis requirements for the approach and you had the lights at minimums. Or better yet, just have this post deleted.[/quote]


This sounds like someone who wouldn't bust minimum's when on fire but rather divert to an alternate airport and be engulfed by flames and die enroute instead.

[Cat Driver]

No respect is there Cat Driver?

Respect can be viewed from different perspectives, I am not all that hurt and am not going to lose sleep over comments made by someone hiding behind the protection of anonimity.

And no where in the forum rules do I see being " sickening, self righteous and arrogant " against the posting rules.

Lets see the answer to this question.

Hope the foregoing explains some of your doubts as to what transpired that night forty years ago...by the way what were you flying forty years ago?

[Siddley Hawker]

North of you, just for the pure hell of it, what would you have done if you had found yourself in a similar situation in which Cat found himself?

[Cat Driver]

Well Siddley,I very much doubt that following any SOP that I have ever seen would be the way to survive.

But I wait with great anticipation the response that North of you may make.

Maybe we all will learn something.

[justwork]

[Cat Driver]

Cat,

Seems to me like you applied the clause that all reasonably SOP's I have seen usually open with.

"The procedures outlined in this manual shall in no way affect the Pilot in Command's ultimate respondsibility for the safe and efficient operation of the aircraft, nor restrict his/her authority to make whatever decisions he/she deems necessary to carry out that respondsibility"

Of course this is accompanied with the prerequiste training and experience to hold a "Command" position.

Mapleflag

Exactly.

Here is a part of an e-mail I received this morning from a retired very high time pilot who flew most everything in aviation.

.,
Why in hell do you bother to post on Av Canada? The response to you SE DC3 landing is typical of the low time, little experience Mupets that reply, one only has to read their juvenile replies to understand that many are a product of a system that tries to supplant common sense/survival skills with regulations and bafflegab.Most of these posters have no clue that on squadron we had no landing limits, All Weather Fighters meant just that! All weather! The combination of Multi crew Licenses, totally irrelevant training, Pay to Fly schemes will result in many more wrecks on the bottom of the Atlantic, look at Air France, four bloody minutes from loss of airspeed indication till impact.

And if I go on Av Canada and point out that my F/O and I got a 320 onto the ground in one piece WITH NO DATA WHATSOEVER IN THE FLIGHT DECK, in a 400ft ceiling without any radio aids working {just another "minor" problem with this pile of junk}. like you I will be assailed by some fucking little College Grad who thinks that there should be an SOP for going to the toilet! ........

There was more but you get the drift.

[Cat Driver]

Thread drift is quite common.

If this drift was of any interest maybe someone will start an new one to deal with events such as I described and the relation to SOP's etc.

[trey kule]

That was a good post. And while I can not speak for Cat, it seems in everything, aviaition included, there is a pendelum like swing.
SOP's are the buzzwords at FTU's by instructors who think that if they use them a great deal, their 172 is actually a 747. The students pick up on it. It is as important to new hires to use the phrase as much as possible, as it is for them to wear their big watches and oakly sunglasses.
Right now the pendelum postion is to substitute enhanced training for common sense and experience. Unfortunately, it is going to take some very tragic accidents, government studies, and the economics of air travel to change before the pendelum starts to swing the other way.

Hopefully, and it is my hope, that by some of us posting we can do a bit to start the shift in the other direction a bit sooner and with fewer tragic losses. We are never going to change the mind of the power-loggers who equate a notation in their log with real experience, or the mindless ones who gibber jabber on about SOP's. But I think there are some new, young pilots out there who will realize they and their passengers lives are in danger and foster some change. Maybe , just maybe some of us old bitter, toothless ones can help with the starting the transition sooner.

There was some excellent posts here, one by a ex test pilot for the Dash series. Did the kiddies listen? Nope. It blows my mind. This whole thread should have been answered in one post. The fact that the original topic (regardless of drift) carries on, demonstrates not only the lack of real technical knowledge, but the refusal to understand... Now what is that saying...its what we think we know...that aint so, that gets us in trouble.

[Cat Driver]

I wonder what the final report will be on Air France 447, especially the CVR?

[dashx]

lack of real technical knowledge

The autopilot is the "muscle". The FGC (Flight guidance computer) is the "brain". The FGC gets its inputs from the AHRS, ADC, and all external signals (ex VHF NAV) required for maintaining a flight profile. The flight crew selects the various modes of flight (vertical and/or lateral) using the flight director controller.

There is no input to the FGC system from either engine that would prevent an autopilot from engaging. There are however (pitch and roll) limits beyond which the system will not allow the autopilot to engage. Until the crew returns the A/C to a normal (within limits) flight profile.

[Apache64_]

The Dash * 100-300 series AFM states that the autopilot is not allowed to fly a s/e approach. IT will fly it, but doing so breaks the AFM limitation, why it is there I have no idea, email Bombardier and get them to explain it. Hand Flying the approach SE isn't rocket science either, if you remember how to use your feet and trim as required. If you are feeling overwhelmed in real life and flying the Dash 8 with the autopilot engaged on a SE approach, giver, but when your done...figure out how you got to the position that flying the Dash 8 two crew on one engine induced such a high workload. Because the workload on approach single engine shouldn't be that high....

How many dash pilots here also follow the AFM requirements to use the TCS control when re-trimming the rudder during normal operations? Why is this requirement in the AFM as well? The autopilot will handle the re-trimming of the rudder in climbs and descents, so why put this requirement in there?

Cheers

Apache

[Canoehead]

How many dash pilots here also follow the AFM requirements to use the TCS control when re-trimming the rudder during normal operations? Why is this requirement in the AFM as well? The autopilot will handle the re-trimming of the rudder in climbs and descents, so why put this requirement in there?

Cheers

Apache

I'm looking for that in the AFM but cannot find a reference to it. Where is this found?

[trey kule]

edited due to long and rambling story without the bnefit of caffeine.

[C-206]

Cat,
Using a radar altimeter to get into Whitehorse (along with lLS) in zero - zero wx. One word = impressive.
C-206

[Doc]

Cat,
Using a radar altimeter to get into Whitehorse (along with lLS) in zero - zero wx. One word = impressive.
C-206

You're way too easily impressed. Try it on just the fuel gauges and a compass!

[Hawkerflyer]

Thread drift is quite common.

If this drift was of any interest maybe someone will start an new one to deal with events such as I described and the relation to SOP's etc.

Drift or hijack? If I place some randomly misspeled words in herre that should get get the wing nuts off topik.

[C-206]

Cat,
Using a radar altimeter to get into Whitehorse (along with lLS) in zero - zero wx. One word = impressive.
C-206

You're way too easily impressed. Try it on just the fuel gauges and a compass!

That would be a different word = awesome!!!!

[Apache64_]

Alright the reference is from the AFM. It maybe worded "should" and may not be a requirement but it is found under 4-3-1 section 4.3.2. Under the notes section. I can't remember the exact wording right now.

Cheers

[BingBong]

The autopilot cannot be set to any kind of BC mode. It does not reverse sense. Try it one day if you don't believe me. It will Intercept with a wrong way turn.

It does work...I've done them all the time in VFR conditions. You have to have your HSI set to the frontcourse (like any BC app)...it intercepts and tracks just fine.

[Raybanman]

Well, I've had it grab and go the wrong way. So at best I'd say its a bad idea IMC. VMC fill your boots.

[xsbank]

I was trained, and continue to train, that you centre the rudder trim when you initiate an approach. However the current aircraft is a twin jet with the engines close in to the fuselage. Is the Dash very heavy on the rudder on approach without trim dialed in? I flew a Dash7 for a while and I can't honestly remember what we did in training if one of those tiny engines failed, even though we did do 2-engines-out-on-one-side in the sim (never baked one in flight, for real. The only one that did, politely did it on the ground).

[xsbank]

Gee mods, I could feel a rush of air as you toasted that post! Ta, ever so.