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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Pretty lively topic this. Here's my take on it...

Overall, it's a job. It's not a great flying job, especially for someone who wants to get anywhere in the industry at 120-150 hours per year, but it could be a way to pay the bills.

The problem I have is this disclaimer statement:

Additional duties of the job as assigned by the owner may include but are not limited to driving a limosine, company marketing, jobsite work, farm chores, and/or landscaping (no I'm not kidding).

That is a pretty broad scope... driving, marketing, jobsite work (what jobsite? what work? can this include tossing concrete forms and packing insulation all day?) farm chores (can this include tossing hay bales, shovelling shit and pulling tits?) landscaping... I've done "landscaping" as a sumer job and if you're not the guy who's been there for several seasons, you're on the business end of a wheel barrow or a shovel all day.

My point is that the most likely person to get a chubby from this type of job posting and therefor likely to sign up in haste is the young-ish pilot with one season under his belt up north and is eager for something in civilization... which is fine.

BUT... is this young buck going to be eager to sign up for the whole kit and kaboodle, accepting the "additional duties" so as not to show signs of being lazy or half hearted and in the end wind up as the company slave and gopher, all for the sake of the CARROT, the 120-150 hours of flying per year? That's 10-12 hours per month. A lot of us do that every 2 days...

...and that folks is my concern and I think that may be the concern of some of the other people who questioned this job posting. Those of us who have been around the block and have been hired at some point for a job that included "various other duties" raise an eyebrow when it says things like "jobsite work" and "landscaping" and "farm chores". It all sounds a little convoluted.

If you want to be taken seriously and not take a shit kicking with an ad like this, POST A SALARY. Let people know that you're not here on AvCanada trying to hoodwink some eager young pilot into being your pool boy and grocery bitch so that you can tell your friends at the country club that your pilot is in the limo out front waiting to take you to the company plane. If he or she is going to be a full time, on call PILOT at your disposal, he or she should be paid accordingly for that service, notwithstanding all of the laundry and dog grooming or whatever else is involved.

Out.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Again, the language is broad because the scope is broad. I don't think there is enough bandwidth o. This site to list all of the jobs I have done for him. I was a good employee because I could do an extremely wide range or things for him and he appreciates it very much and that gets rewarded. In previous posts I have answered every point you made in your post including the salary and I don't care to repeat everything. I have also noted that this is NOT a time building job, its a means to make ends meet and fly a nice airplane and live in civilization and offer what was an excellent lifestyle FOR ME!! There were times I didn't fly for 6 weeks because the airplane was down for mx but then we would fly 20hrs in 2 weeks, the nature of the beast.

All those duties you mentioned may be asked, but certainly not everyday, at least not for me as I have a backbone and was able to say no when I needed too. There were horses, so I shoveled shit maybe 10-12 times. I was never asked to, I just saw it needed to be done so I did it. I never pulled any tits at least not on the animals and with the landscaping, I had a rake a few times, and a power edger, I don't think I touched a shovel or wheel barrow at all but logged 75-100 hours on a riding mower listening to my music and ignoring the company supplied and paid blackberry for 3-4 hours at a time. I will note that I don't think I have broken a sweat at work since September, it's just the way it was. The owner is a homebuilder so job site work may be sweeping out a house or pitching hay out of a cured basement that took all of 2-3 hrs or if someone enjoyed minor carpentry such work, they could do that, but I never did. I think I spent a total of about 6-7 days on a job site in 18 months. A new candidate may enjoy that stuff more, I don't know, don't care. If he or anyone in his family wanted to fly somewhere, that took presidence over everything else, that was the most important thing to me. Take it for what you want, I really don't care anymore.

We have received a number of very good applications, I have responded to every single person that applied, tried to answer every question that was asked and ultimately the owner will make the final decision on which candidate he wants to trust to look after his bird.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Mabe changing the titile of the job ad would be a good idea. You say you are looking for a "pilot and aircraft manager" but that sounds to me like the lesser part of the job. You don't see that as dangling a "carrot"? I understand the idea of the job, and will be a good gig for someone for sure, but this is clearly not a "pilot position" and should be advertised as such.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Why?? He is not looking for a right hand man/woman that can be a pilot...he is looking for a pilot that can possibly be his right hand man/woman (and hahaha, bring on the jokes, so very original :roll: )

One last time...IT IS A PART TIME FLYING JOB!!! CAN BE MADE A FULL TIME JOB FOR THE SUCCESSFUL CANDIDATE!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:08 pm 
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cdnpilot77 wrote:
I literally just recived my T4, I made $37,440 doing it

Can you clarify this for me? Was this the T4 for one year of employment at the aforementioned position?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:22 pm 
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37 grand for a 150 hours of flying and to be someones bitch for a year. ha ha ha ha..........priceless!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:39 pm 
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SO, I suppose thats much worse than flying a clapped out 180 or DHC-2 in the north working 70-80hrs a week for 2.5-3.5k/month for 6 months right?? cleaning and repairing camps, repairing docks, pushing stinky ass fishermen into the airplane for a tight squeeze home for a 600hr pilot?? You guys are un-fuken-real!! and being his Bitch?? are you serious?? Give the entire thread another read, its called working and earning a paycheck, and it didnt seem so bad when I was soaking up the sun for a few weeks in florida or Mexico at their condo while on the company dime or eating one of the dozen of 5star meals I have over the course of a year or living at home in SW ontario with my wife who was going through very difficult times. How do you put a price on that? How about the flexible time to take a position teaching at the college and also to be on call to fly a 421 based locally?? Go back to your hole!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:46 pm 
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So the 37 k is only for 6 months?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Im done...and thank you for your application Chesty, but I dont believe you are right for the position.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:00 pm 
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You didn't answer the question. Is the 37k for 6 months or a year? The difference is that the guy flying the beaver is making that in 6 months and flying a lot more than a 150hrs, he actually has a job as a pilot. I am a career bush pilot, you can not blow that smoke up my ass! Ya if I fly into a camp and there is a problem, I fix it. Big difference in making my customers happy than throwing bails of hay or cutting some lazy rich dudes grass!

Don't worry about reciving my resume, I'm not interested in being anyones bitch but my own :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Have a good day Chesty!! Fly safe.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:41 pm 
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So the guy puts a "disclaimer" up and tells the pilot what kind of extra work there is available and this is a bad thing? Would it be better to tell the pilot after they arrive? Reids field is a gorgeous area. I grew up in Breslau so I think it would be a cool job. I should tell my old man about it.

So Chesty, in your infinite wisdom gleaned from your life up north, youre a boss who needs 100 hrs of flying per year in a bid city, how do you structure the job? Pay a FT salary for a guy to sit around. If you dont like the job dont apply.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:04 pm 
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I had no idea that seeing an ad posting would be such a tedious exercise, and a revelation in reading comprehension.
If you don't want the job, don't apply for it. There is a right fit for every job. From what I hear there have been some extremely qualified individuals looking for a fun job to get out of the rat race for a while. Obviously people with a wider skill set than just driving a -2

I've been a fairly accomplished bartender and general manager for quite some time, in some well known establishments in Toronto. Would I call up someone posting an ad for a part time bartender with side duties to do sound work, maintenance, security, and bitch at them saying I'm too good for their job because all I can do is bartend? Maybe if I was crazy.

It's obviously for a jack of all trades.

OR

A part time pilot.

Quote:
you're a boss who needs 100 hrs of flying per year in a big city, how do you structure the job? Pay a FT salary for a guy to sit around? If you don't like the job dont apply.


+1


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:33 am 
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I mearly suggested changing the title of the job ad. You are not hiring a pilot, you are hiring somone to do odd jobs and a little bit of flying. I'm all for the job, and I'm sure it will be a good gig for somone. I just don't like how it is advertised. This is what is wrong about this industry, there will always be jobs like this and people who will take them. What other industry is like aviation? I can't think of any. You don't see truck drivers, offered a job driving a nice shiny new peterbuilt but in order to drive you would also have to do odd jobs, the truckers I know would shit themselves laughing!

As for "what I would to with all my northern wisdom" is hire a "pilot", to do pilot duties and look after the operations of my aircraft, not cut grass, paint, etc. If I have money to fly around in a beaver to the "cottage" and buy expensive hamburgers I have the money to pay someone to fly it for me. I would hire a landscaper or the nieghbourhood kid to cut the grass, hire a limo driver to drive my limo they need work too. Na, I'll just hire a pilot, they'll do it all! Curious as to whos wrench's on this airplane, mabe they would be interested in helping the pilot out with some of these odd jobs? Doubt it.

I'm sure that a guy looking for work as a part-time bartender would be interested in the job if other duties inclueded such things as cutting grass, farm chores, driving a limo, mabe cutting your toe nails! I don't think so, He is interested in being a "bartender". Nice try.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:40 am 
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When the bears start to look sexy its time to get out of the bush Chesty not walk deeper into the forest.

Edited...no point in arguing


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:25 am 
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Ok....... I'm going to take one final stab at this, extend the olive branch and politely peace out.

There are two different things going on here-
1)Chesty, I completely see your point, really. We share the same distain for the cheapening of our industry and I've been vocal about it. (check my commentary on Skydive Toronto)
2)You are missing the point here entirely because this isn't that type of job! This is where the misunderstanding lies.

Given the example of an entry level bush position, the duties where you're cleaning the dock, chopping wood, hell even cleaning camp toilets, are, unfortunately mandatory for those sort of "prove yourself" sort of jobs. There are 150 applications for every low time pilot job, and how else can you weed through and pick who gets the gig? Tough, sad, but true. I don't agree with it, but if you refuse to sweep the dock, and you'll be out, because that's the position.

Again, here's the misunderstanding. On THIS job, none of these extra duties are listed as mandatory- The owner only has a limited amount of flying time to offer, and he understands the financial aspect of that and has allowed a provision for the pilot to earn extra cash by doing anything else that can be done IF they want to do it. If it were a corporate 10x or even a Mustang, you'd probably be paying a guy a lot more and easing on the duties because he'd have a lifetime of experience and command the salary, but it's only a -2. Say 40k (As an estimate, I'm not associated with the position so I don't know) That would start at $266 an hour for flying a -2. Not feasible.

If the applicant, for whatever reason, wanted to say "Hey, I only want to fly". From what I see, that would be entirely fine, and you'd get paid a fair rate, but only get paid for the 150 hrs per year and AC mgnt. You'd also have to be on call all day, pretty tough to have anything else to pay for the roof over your head in that situation, but then again the appropriate applicant for that scenario may have a different set of circumstances that fit the position (live nearby and retired, live with folks, etc).

Lastly- the issue of Pilot job title, in my eyes, is completely justified. I think it's safe to say that every pilot also happens to know how to ride a mower. (I hope!), but how many landscapers do you know, when asked at a landscaping interview, just happen to be checked out and insurance qualified to fly a Beaver on floats??

Dat's alls I got. Olive branch, and peacin outta this thread for fear of more: Head-->Brick wall

Cheers all,
Dan
(BTW as a GM at bars in downtown Toronto, I can't tell you the number of times I've had to hit the dishpit or do the door when the shit hit the fan)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:40 am 
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Sorry Dan, I think it is you who is missing the point.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a job that may or may not include clipping Grandma's toenails as long as it is well defined and laid out clearly.

The problem here is that the OP or whomever wrote the job ad pooched it by way of poorly articulating what is expected and for what money. It should be listed as a contract flying job, period. If there are any available takers then fine. Don't combine all of the other convoluted mess about mowing lawns and driving miss daisy and then cry foul when people call you on it.

The Job ad reads as such in this order.

Quote:
>Position Title: Pilot - Aircraft Manager
>Reports To: Owner
>Responsibilities:....• Additional duties of the job as assigned by the owner may include but are not limited to driving a limosine, company marketing, jobsite work, farm chores, and/or landscaping (no I'm not kidding).

The "job" in question at this point is the one which is Pilot reporting to the Owner who may request a multitude of non related and menial tasks unrelated to that of a pilot.

Only under "Salary" at the bottom does it mention that there are options for compensation and again it is very poorly worded in my opinion. It does not say "If you decide to be on call and flying only, you are not going to be expect to anything but fly the aircraft"

Splitting hairs? Absolutely. Would the owner split hairs if a CV came across his desk with a cover letter that was worded this poorly? He would expect a professional pilot to be able to articulate clearly what his intentions/desires are with regard to the job in question.
Should it be up to the potential hire to ask for written clarification as to what he may or may not be expected to do or should it be detailed in a Job Description, a formal document that usually doesn't sound like it may or may not include 5 or 6 different professional disciplines. Does one exist for this position?

Lets face it, who is going to get this job, someone who only wants to fly, which in turn forces the owner to hire another person to do all of the menial, laborious, non-flying jobs? Not in my opinion. He is going to wade through the pile until someone bites and signs up for the whole shootin match thereby giving him one less person to manage, one less EI contribution etc, etc. Is this going to be the best "pilot" for the job... maybe. Admittedly they are not an aviation company so who is going to vet the candidates for them to find the most safe pilot to fly the wife, kids and co-workers to the cottage? Who is going to do the check ride to make sure the guy or girl is up to snuff? 750 hours? 500 on floats? That's just about the "cocky hour" range when your shit doesn't stink isn't it? Instrument rating??? SPIFR in a piston Beaver on floats... hmmm.

The only real candidate for a "flying only" scenario would be someone retired, meets the qualifications (current IR) and happens to live beside the airport in question, not likely in my opinion.
90 minutes to get the airplane fuelled/oiled, prepped, flight planned and warmed up from zero to airborne?? I get 60 minutes to be in my airplane for MEDEVAC flights with full dispatch, loadmaster and fuelling team on site, and that's in a turbine in the tropics, not a radial in -20.

DanWEC wrote:
If the applicant, for whatever reason, wanted to say "Hey, I only want to fly"....you'd get paid a fair rate, but only get paid for the 150 hrs per year and AC mgnt

Sorry, how do you know this? What is "fair" and please share it with us who are curious.

What do you mean "for whatever reason"? Don't pilots generally want to earn their salaries as pilots? Or is it just because the job in question is a float job, people expect that you are somehow deserving of shovelling a man's horseshit and mowing his lawn to feed your own family?

Irving Oil has a corporate -2 that flies the owners to their cottages about as much as this machine is expected to. I believe they pay in the region of 8K per month for the summer float season. No horseshit, marketing, limo driving or landscaping involved. I don't know the company in question but would it be out of line to require them to pay their corporate pilot 30 or 40 percent of that just to be a pilot? I think not.

That's the way it works in aviation. You buy a corporate airplane and need a pilot? ... you pay for a pilot.
If you can't afford a corporate pilot, get your licence or sell the airplane.

It's kind of like saying that you went out and bought yourself a submarine and don't know how to drive it, but if there are any submarine drivers who would like a job where I will pay you only when I want to go submarining great... oh, there aren't any who can afford to live like that? ... well if you cut my grass and shovel my horseshit I will pay you a wage you can live on... Deal?

I will be very interested to know if this job gets filled "flying only", ever. That would be a real surprise to me.

I think Cdnpilot77's situation, living next door and the family proximity etc, etc, is one in a million and when the job gets filled by another person, it will be out of sheer hunger to fly the Beaver and the pilot will be miserable with all of the other crap to do while peeking through the hanger door, wondering when he's gonna get to go apply his skills again.

My day off today.. family's out and I just killed an hour and a half on this. :?:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:28 am 
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I see the point your trying to make on the posting. However, agreed it is splitting hairs.
It simply boils down to a fit for a job. I'm not defending it in essence, but as a position some are more unique than others, but also have ideal candidates.

I remember as a teenager I was heavily into 2 things. Skiing and mountain biking. That was it, almost my life entirely. (Ah simplicity)
I grew up in Windsor. The flattest damn place in Ontario. You can imagine the dischord.
Then it happened.
For some divine reason a sign went up at a vacant shop less than 100 metres from my house.... Opening Soon- Riverside Ski and Cycle.
WHAT THE F???
I worked there from the day they opened until they closed up. (Yup, it was Windsor, after all) If it wasn't for that crazy coincidence I probably wouldn't have had the amazing experiences I had racing in both sports.

Cheers
Dan


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:37 am 
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That's a cool story. Right place, right time.

If there was a rock and roll stripclub that opened up 100m from my house in 1989, we would have had parallel lives :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:05 pm 
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I'm sorry that I didn't articulate to your standards cloudrunner. I was asked to write an ad and to include the "may include duties" so it wouldn't be a surprise or unexpected if a candidate was called that applied for that aspect of it rather than the on call. However it may have been written, people would have bitched about it, just because it is something to do on a Friday night (or Wednesday morning).

But, one in a million? A bit of a stretch, there are at least 2 resumes of the 75+ I have received that would seem to be in a very similar circumstance to mine and actually live much closer to Reids field than I do. So thats about 1 in 37.5.....splitting hairs?? So is the owner going to be judged if one of them get it?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:04 pm 
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75 resumes eh?

Must be worse than I thought back there. Best of luck.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Good post Cloudrunner, was sarting to think I walked to deeply into the forest!

cndpilot: I am curious as to the average age and experiance level of the 75 applications you have reiceved?

Dan: Good post, but you do not to have to try explaning anything to me, It is what it is to me. That will not change. working the door, and washing some dishes, realated duties to the job at hand and you were the manager. Again how does this compare to a "pilot" (supposed to be a professional position) doing farm jobs. I don't see the relationship.

A very good friend of mine flys a "private" beaver for some americans. He has flown airplanes his whole life(over 10 k hours) and took this job to semi-retire. His duties are to Manage and fly the airplane. The owners pay him a year round salary for this. Why can't the owner in question do this?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:26 pm 
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cdnpilot77,

I got your ad. I'm all for raising our employment standards in this industry, but this one doesn't fit the bill as a bad job - it's just unique.

It's too bad it's on a float plane. My dad's retired, lives just down the road from Ried's and would be a perfect fit. He's a guy who can do just about anything (pilot, tool and diemaker, mechanic, jack of all trades, etc) and would be happy to hang out around airplanes and get to fly one once in a while. This is the type of person that this job is looking for, not a low timer. In fact it would be really dumb for a low timer (BTW who wouldn't qualify) because they'd hardly be building any time.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Bede,

I agree whole heartedly!! My only contention is that this is a bad job...it's not. It really isn't, it's got its good things and bad of course, what job doesn't?? I took the job because it offered me the lifestyle that I needed for 18 months at 600hrs total time since it was in the middle of a downturn and I needed to be at home. Now I am moving on to a twin turbine job. The times listed were minimum requested for insurance. We have received resumes from 500hr time builders, which I hope to my credit, I have weeded them out as it is clearly not that position, to 15000hr jet captains and everything you can think of in between.

Ultimately a few people will get a call, discuss it with the owner and decide if it's right for them. Plain and simple.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:29 pm 
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For the record the points on the actual ad have been noted and if I ever have to write an ad again, I will try to articulate the position better.


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