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Lost Lake
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:39 pm 
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MAT twin otter crashed on landing at the Male Airport. Pictures show right wind in the water on what looks like the North Right Runway.

How many more accidents have to happen before they change their hiring practices back to bringing in experienced expat pilots?

On top of that, the country is in the throws of a coup with rioting going on all over. Sure wish I could spend my hard earned dollars on getting the shit scared out of me by the pilots and locals while vacationing in lotus land. :roll:


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DanWEC
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Did you mean to post a link? I can't find any media on a crash just now.


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tons-o-fun
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:11 pm 
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http://minivannews.com/society/seaplane-crash-lands-at-ibrahim-nasir-international-airport-31829


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North Shore
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:08 am 
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Lost Lake wrote:
change their hiring practices back to bringing in experienced expat pilots?


Riiight - 'cause it's explicitly clear from the report that this accident is the fault of local pilots. :roll:


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Lost Lake
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:28 am 
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The rumour has it that it was, again. If I understand correct, in the last 5 reported accidents, that has been the case. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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CLguy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:59 am 
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Well it wasn't the case this time. Canadian Captain, Maldivian Copilot. I heard a rumor the Copilot was doing the landing though.


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PieLit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Sounds more like a hard landing than a crash.

But hey, let's go ahead and speculate with rumours because it's so productive. :smt014


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:16 pm 
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Sounds more like a hard landing than a crash.


It must be a design flaw in the twin otter on floats, because that hard landing seems to have ripped a float off.

And we all know pilots don't crash airplanes, it is always someone else that is to blame.


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PieLit
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:26 pm 
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The MAT Twin Otter seaplane remained afloat and upright but one of the floats was damaged, leaving it leaning to one side with one wing extended into the water.

A damaged float...hardly a crash. Let's not get too dramatic here.

If you blow a tire on a hard landing, and the airplane is crippled on the runway because of it, does that count as a crash?


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:08 am 
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The MAT Twin Otter seaplane remained afloat and upright but one of the floats was damaged, leaving it leaning to one side with one wing extended into the water.

A damaged float...hardly a crash. Let's not get too dramatic here.


You think it was a mechanical failure after reading the story and seeing the picture?

For sure it was an expensive accident, and hopefully it was due to mechanical failure and not to crew error.

I was not attempting to be dramatic, however I am trying to remember an easier float plane to fly than the Twin Otter......stand by while I see if I can remember one.
Quote:

If you blow a tire on a hard landing, and the airplane is crippled on the runway because of it, does that count as a crash?


If the tire blew because your landing was hard enough to blow it then I would consider it to be a crash.


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Lost Lake
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:20 pm 
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The accident was due to pilot error. The story is the captain allowed a local pilot to land in severe rain. Probably landed at low tide and sruck a reef. (speculation). This is just one incident in what has become a very high rate of "incidents" in the Maldives.


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CLguy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Actually Lost Lake nothing in your last post is true. The weather that day was pretty ugly but at the time of the accident the weather in Male' was actually pretty good with no rain, light winds and good visibilty. They weren't landing at low tide and they never hit any coral.

It was nothing more than a routine landing by a low time copilot that went real bad. What actually happened is still being investigated.


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MacStork
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Well put CL Guy! Some of the comments here are simply bizarre ...... I have to wonder where they really emerge from??


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Lost Lake
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:00 pm 
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My bad. :oops: I only go on what I heard from what I thought is a reliable source. Kinda makes it worse though, when you think of it. Good conditions, etc. The biggest problem is letting low time, inexperienced pilots who have only flown 172's in the right seat. When you trade soveriegnty for safety, it is never good. The government and the companies are using these planes as training platforms. It would be a better scenario if f/o's had to have some real experience before being hired.

You have to agree, if you've ever spent time there, that there is a very large number of "incidents" for the number of planes. I even know of unreported as well as reported incidents at the competitor. I believe it's only a matter of time before there is a SERIOUS incident.

No operator I know of would ever let a 250 hr pilot with a 5 hr float endorsement jump into beaver on his first day.


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Road Trip
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Lost Lake wrote:
My bad. :oops: I only go on what I heard from what I thought is a reliable source. Kinda makes it worse though, when you think of it. Good conditions, etc.

The biggest problem is letting low time, inexperienced pilots who have only flown 172's in the right seat.

When you trade soveriegnty for safety, it is never good. The government and the companies are using these planes as training platforms. It would be a better scenario if f/o's had to have some real experience before being hired.

You have to agree, if you've ever spent time there, that there is a very large number of "incidents" for the number of planes. I even know of unreported as well as reported incidents at the competitor. I believe it's only a matter of time before there is a SERIOUS incident.

No operator I know of would ever let a 250 hr pilot with a 5 hr float endorsement jump into beaver on his first day.


Your statements are getting more and more bizzare? Are there Beavers in the Maldives? I've never heard of this before.

As for the right seat of a twin otter not being the right place for inexperienced pilots . . . The twin otter right seat is a very common first flying job not only in the Maldives but with many respected canadian companies.

If you don't want 250 hr pilots flying single engine pistons nor flying right seat in twins where do you want these pilots to gain their experience?


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Lost Lake
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:09 am 
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Hey Road trip your right. But stop there. Low time pilots should start out on A320's. Hell, I got a drivers license, I should be an ice roads trucker.

The beaver was meant as a comparison. If you honestly beleive that as a low time pilot, and your captain passes out, that you will safely and efficiently land at Karedo in 50 kts winds and swells, as well as low vis in pissing rain. I call bullshit.. There is a difference between your first job on a piper cub and flying a turbine otter. There is also a huge difference between flying right seat on a caravan or navajo in the IFR world and flying floats in a large ocean.

The fact is that in the last few years, the number of incidents has grown as the number of high (higher time) pilots jas diminished.
They even jumped the captn mins to 3.500 hr. Hell that's twice what AC or WJ wants. HM...
If you honestly believe that a conservative 10 to 20% of the float planes that have been involved in "incidents" in the past few years is just "bad luck". oh well.

I could just see TC in YYZ saying, 10% of the canadian fleet has had serious "incidents" in the last few years and this is acceptable.

Captain: " Gee the inexperience f.o had to learn to land the airbus one day. Not my fault he decided to land sideways. Shit no-one got hurt. What's the big deal!"

Flame away!


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180
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:22 pm 
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How experienced was the captain?


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CLguy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:16 am 
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Lost Pilot you obviously have some axe to grind with the Maldives cause I cannot follow your logic about putting a low time pilot right seat in a day VFR Twin Otter. Hate to break it to you but there are 250 hour wonders flying right seat in heavy iron all over the world. They may not work for a Canadian Airline but they do fly in and out of Canadian airspace all the time.

Since the Maldivian pilots make up the majority of pilots here the odds are that if there is an incident chances are a Maldivian will be involved. No different in Canada, I can easily make the statement that if there is an incident it will be a Canadian pilot who will be involved. There are some very high time and very experienced Maldivian pilots who get the job done daily regardless of the conditions. As you probably know pilots in the Maldives see some pretty crazy weather and sea conditions. I don't think you are giving them enough credit. I have flown with a few expats that I have shaken my head at so it's not limited to being Maldivian.


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Dash 27
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:31 pm 
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I fix'em, I don't fly'em, so I'd be pissed about having to rescue these airplanes all the time. I'm curious though, is it true that they're not allowed to hire Canadian F/O's over there? And is it the same with maintenance? It changes things if the floats are ready to fall off in the first place.


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CLguy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:59 pm 
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No it is not true! They can hire whoever they want and that goes for pilots and maintenance. What makes you think the floats are ready to fall off them and what makes you think they need rescuing all the time? Where the hell does this shit come from! They are over 40 Twin Otters flying out of the water base at the International Airport and I can count on 1 hand the number of times I know of maintenance leaving the base to rescue a unserviceable aircraft.


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Slipster
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:26 am 
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... Missing... The big picture....

The industry is moving and shaking... and there are many pilots finding new seats.... We could draw a connection to this and an increase of posts in this forum.

The Dives provide a unique and challenging environment and there are all kinds of factors that affect the daily workload...

Yes there is pressure... no not more than anywhere else... Yes there are politics,,... but really???

There are all sorts of pilots at different experience and skill levels.. And yes one could say that the Dives have a lot of latent (buried) factors that can lead to these sorts of incidences ...

We've all done the CRM and sms thing...!!

So Im glad noone got hurt ... yes an expensive mistake...

My hopes that the blame culture does not prevale and that training company structure can reassemble to react to the movement in the industry...

My two cent...


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bananaskins
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Riiight - 'cause it's explicitly clear from the report that this accident is the fault of local pilots.


When is an accident not the fault of the pilots?


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BverLuver
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:10 pm 
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bananaskins wrote:
Riiight - 'cause it's explicitly clear from the report that this accident is the fault of local pilots.


When is an accident not the fault of the pilots?


Read again, thats not what he is saying. Key word in that sentence is "LOCAL"


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MacStork
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:26 am 
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Lost Lake wrote:
MAT twin otter crashed on landing at the Male Airport. Pictures show right wind in the water on what looks like the North Right Runway.

How many more accidents have to happen before they change their hiring practices back to bringing in experienced expat pilots?

On top of that, the country is in the throws of a coup with rioting going on all over. Sure wish I could spend my hard earned dollars on getting the shit scared out of me by the pilots and locals while vacationing in lotus land. :roll:



Again ...... there appears to be a lot of conjecture and rumour that is based on misinformation.
The history of aviation in the Maldives has been diverse and very progressive. The float operation has evolved from a single Twin Otter in 1994 to almost 50 Twin Otters today (between two Companies) (There was a twin Otter operation that was started in the 80's, but it crashed and sank in Kuredu.)
Today Male Airport has the largest Float Base in the world..... almost 50 aircraft between two companies. Just to point out the scope of this operation, most pilots will fly 10-15 sectors a day. The record was 26 sectors in one day. Last month, MAT set a new record and transported over 40,000 passengers in one month. I don't have the figures for TMA, but they would have to be fairly close to those figures. Lets assume about 75,000 passengers a month between the two companies. That is a large operation by any ones standards. This is a very busy operation and if you have ever flown here in the Maldives you would appreciate the scope, complexity and the diversity of aviation in the Maldives.
The Maldivian CAA has done an amazingly good job of managing and administrating this industry. They have a modern IFR airport, a modern Air Traffic Control system including a new control tower and a large, modern and functional sea plane base.
Is it a perfect operation? Certainly not! But the last I checked, neither is Canada, the US or any other country. It is work in progress ..... I think they have done an amazing job in a relatively short period of time.
The Maldivian Government, like any other government, has striven to achieve a large Maldivian content in this industry, and rightly so. As a result of this mandate, about 75 % of the sea plane pilots are Maldivian. They have accomplished this in less than 20 years, which is really quite amazing.
I have flown with many of these pilots and IMHO they are, for the most part, competent and talented Twin Otter float pilots. They operate daily in sea conditions that we do not experience in Canada. The monsoon weather conditions are also very challenging and demanding.
When you consider the number of sectors that the average pilot does in one day, the accident rate (regardless of how you measure it) is statistically, probably quite normal.
I have found the vast majority of Maldivian pilots to be competent, talented and confident aviators. There are some very impressive Maldivian pilots and I have seen many of them progress from a low time co-pilot to an experienced Twin Otter Captain. Some of these Maldivian pilots ( like Canadian pilots) have gone on to larger companies and are now commanders on larger jet aircraft.
So when you want to offer your opinions about one accident, perhaps you should get all of the facts first. The CAA and the Company will assess the accident and eventually determine the cause. Then they will most likely react to ensure that this will not happen again.
In short, it would behoove a Canadian pilot to engage one's brain, before throwing one's mouth in gear.


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olorin
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Re: MacStork's maldives "crash" post.........How on earth was this post allowed....?

NO exageration

NO profanity

NO self serving grandiose statements

NO superiority professed

etc. etc,

I too, have considerable time in the Maldives flying...for TMA.....Thankyou MacStork for an EXCELLENT POST. Maybe we all can learn something from it..... FLY SAFE OUT THERE.


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