Newbie Looking for positivity from the Boards

[bigEh]

Hey everyone,
This is my first post but I have been thoroughly searching and reading for the past while. My reason for posting is that I have been thinking about starting my PPL with an eye towards my CPL. I want a career out of flying. But I don't want to invest in training without having a firm grasp of what I am getting myself into. My main concern is that I will have to finance my training partially with a Line of credit/student loans. I already have loans from my university degree so will be double dipping so to speak. I have two jobs at the moment and will be able to keep both while I train (with less hours of course). Having been reading the forums for a while now, it seems there is a lot more negative posts about flying as a career if you have debt. People here love flying but there is always a sarcastic remark or a stern warning about how you will never make any real money.

What I was hoping for by posting was to get any positive stories about jumping in at the deep end with debt. My career goals at this time is not to fly airlines, but to fly in the bush. I have worked briefly in the Yukon claiming stakes for this new gold rush (even survived and helicopter crash) and enjoyed my time. I have travelled extensively in the past and would be open to working in most locations ie BC, Ont, Africa, Papua New Guinea etc....Obviously I don't know enough to say with complete certainty where I will end up, but Bush flying seems like a great way to learn and see some beautiful places.

So does anyone have any positive stories, suggestions, ideas about making flying a career that I will enjoy getting out of bed (as opposed to now).

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

[Colonel Sanders]

First, get out of debt.

[Doc]

Then, get right back into debt.

[Colonel Sanders]

Hey, I was trying to be positive ...

Seriously, work at a well-paying job that you hate, live
cheap, and get out of debt. Continue that lifestyle until
you have saved some money, then learn to fly part-time
as you continue to work at the well-paying job that you
hate.

Eventually, you will have 250 hrs, a comm/mifr and money
in the bank. Then, walk away on the well-paying job that
you hate and hit the road, driving to places with names that
have fort and lake in them.

Never, ever tell anyone that you have money saved up,
otherwise they will figure out a better reason that they
should have your money, instead of you.

Look poor. Drive a car with 500,000 kilometers on it.

[bandaid]

As with any professional career, debt is unavoidable. From my experience with my son, you will not get rich in the profession but you will eventually make a liveable wage, it's surviving the in between that is the hardest part.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hey, I was trying to be positive ...

Seriously, work at a well-paying job that you hate, live
cheap, and get out of debt. Continue that lifestyle until
you have saved some money, then learn to fly part-time
as you continue to work at the well-paying job that you
hate.

Eventually, you will have 250 hrs, a comm/mifr and money
in the bank. Then, walk away on the well-paying job that
you hate and hit the road, driving to places with names that
have fort and lake in them.

Never, ever tell anyone that you have money saved up,
otherwise they will figure out a better reason that they
should have your money, instead of you.

Look poor. Drive a car with 500,000 kilometers on it.

A big + 1. I started my first commercial flying job with zero debt as I did all my training on the pay as you go plan supported by a relatively high paying non aviation job. Frankly I think anybody who goes into any significant debt and then tries to make a living off their first flying job is crazy.

BigEh:

All the wishing in the world for "positivity" from avcanada posters won't change the reality of aviation. There are 5 wannabe no experience CPL's for every job. Wages are very low for all of the entry level jobs and it takes the average person around 3 to 5 years before they will make what most people would consider a living wage. These are the facts of aviation life and anybody who plans to give flying a go as their profession had better arrange their finances accordingly.

[PanEuropean]

...I have travelled extensively in the past and would be open to working in most locations ie BC, Ont, Africa, Papua New Guinea etc...

Something that you need to be aware of, and - in the context of your post above, might require you to change your expectations about travel and working in far-off lands - is that the days of the 'Canadian Expatriate Pilot' heading off with relatively low time and getting a job flying in a lesser-developed country are now history.

When I got my first job abroad in the late 1980s, I had about 1,000 hours and started flying as a F/O on a Twin Otter in Southern Africa. Nowadays, it is very rare to hear of a foreign pilot getting a 'first job' job as a F/O on any aircraft in a lesser developed country, simply because young people who are citizens of that lesser developed country are getting those jobs, and in many cases, their own government is assisting them to do this by declining to issue work permits for foreign pilots unless the foreign pilot has 'great experience' on the type and it is not possible to find a local citizen with equivalent 'great experience'.

In other words, if you have several thousand hours PIC experience on a specific type, and you have gained that experience in a lesser developed country, sure, there are still expat jobs out there. But, they are expat Captain jobs, not expat F/O jobs, and that expat Captain will most probably be flying alongside a young F/O from the host country who has the same asprirations, hopes, and dreams that you do.

There are some exceptions to this, usually for very uncommon types such as the Dash-7, or very complex types such as a G550 or Global Express. Similarly, there are expat F/O jobs out there on stuff like CRJs and Dash 8's, but you need considerable time on that type to qualify. The general rule of thumb is this: The simpler the aircraft is (meaning, the easier it is for a relatively low-time local citizen to get qualified on it as a F/O), the less likely it is that foreign operators will consider hiring an expat F/O.

So - when making your plans, it would be best (most conservative) to work on the assumption that you are going to have to gain your first couple of thousand hours of experience here in Canada, not abroad.

Michael

[robertsailor1]

The no debt advise is the best advise you can be given, followed by having some savings, even the old car isn't bad. Get a decent education or trades school and start making some real money because money means you have choices and savings mean that you have some staying power. Flying the bush is a wonderful vocation for those who love the independence and the great out doors and its a worthwhile goal but always do your goal setting with a back door, cheers and good luck

[Mr. North]

+1 on having an out. The number one rule in bush flying. And in this case, money really does equal options.

Be mindful though that the music is playing right now. In fact, the last time I saw this much movement was pre-9/11. How long will this go on for? Sure the global demand for pilots is growing (as has always been the case) but economic downturns, rising oil prices, terrorist attacks, and even SARS do a good job of tempering that demand. It can happen almost overnight and the question all of us have to ask is "where will I be when the music stops?". Planning for a zero debt start in aviation is all well and good but don't lose sight of the big picture. It's quite possible that by the time you're ready to take the plunge, most flying jobs will have evaporated. What then?

I'm not discounting the advice others have mentioned, I'm just bringing to light the other end of the spectrum. The sooner you get started in aviation the sooner you will get to where you want to be.
There are plenty of pilots (myself included) who started in aviation with debt and made it work. You just have to be good with your money and make smart employment decisions. Another tip I'll add is after a couple seasons in the bush, get EI to pay for your multi/ifr rating. That'll save you 10k right there.

Ultimately you are the best judge as to what you can afford to do.

Good luck.

[Big Pistons Forever]

, get EI to pay for your multi/ifr rating.

My understanding is that EI will no longer directly pay for any flying training. You may be able to collect EI while training, but even that is now apparently hard to do. Do your research before depending on EI for anything.

[bigEh]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I was expecting basically the responses I got. The way I see it though is that the average students who graduate from University in BC have a student debt of $27 000. These days, unless you have a useful degree (ie not social sciences, humanities, English....), you will have trouble finding a job that pays well. I know a lot of grads that are working at shitty jobs that pay poorly that have nothing to do with their degree. Then if you go back to get your masters, you have to get more loans or get lucky and get grants. So it is tough for a lot of people. Does anyone here think that choosing a career as a pilot is harder than most careers? According to Statistics Canada, the median income for unattached Canadians was $25 000. Is that really all that much more than a first and second year pilot? What can the average first and second year pilot expect to make in the bush? Is it that much less than the average Canadian? And please correct me if I am wrong, but don't bush pilots make their money in the summer and have the ability to go make more when the season is over (maybe back home at that job you hate). Could I work the summer and then return home and work two jobs and save, save, save for the next summer, while flying in my spare time?

If I spend a couple years plugging away and working hard, is it unthinkable that I will be happy with my job that third summer? I work two jobs now so I know about trying to make ends meet. And I am not trying to get rich, but rather, I am trying to find a job that is interesting and fulfilling and that I am passionate about.

I am not trying to argue with anyone, and I appreciate all the experience you bring to the table. I want to stimulate a conversation so I can hear truthfully what I can expect.

Again, I really appreciate all responses and any suggestions, ideas or stories are a plus.

[flyinthebug]

bigEH...

Thanks for the PM and I hope to add a bit to this thread. As I mentioned in another post, my 1st job was .26 a SM and no base. My 1st months take home pay was just over 1800$ for the month. I worked the dock, hammered nails, cleaned the office, loaded and unloaded aircraft...but I also got a fair amount of flying time. After one season on floats, I got a co-pilot gig that pay was not very good, but they included accomodations and transportation to and from base, so with a salary of only 20K (that was 18 yrs ago) a yr, I still made ends meet (with the help of a supportive and hard working wife).

After a yr as a co-pilot I was promoted to a Capt on a PA31-350 and thats when I started to make a decent wage (40-45K) to start. So for me, it didnt take 5 yrs or longer to start making a decent income. After spending about another yr as a PA31 Capt, I became a CP for a small op then onto a larger op in the same position. The money just kept getting better, as did the ops I worked for.

For me, the bush route was not a painful route to take. I enjoyed my 1st yr very much and flying floats was a hoot! I did 3 yrs on floats out on the coast and you can make a good yr round living driving a -2 or -3T out there (65-75K per annum). They only yr that my pay was crap was when I was a co-pilot on an air ambulance twin. Once I made Capt (even on floats), the money seemed to keep going in the right direction.

You are considering a career that is now booming and in need of lower time guys. Id say the time is right if you are looking to break in now. As someone said above, this is the most hiring we`ve seen in the industry since pre 9/11. Lots of retirement and newly bought equipment and regional ideas for one of our majors, is opening up the door for the newbys in a very fast way.

The debt issue is something we all face regardless of the career choice. I dont believe its any harder to break into this industry than any other. It takes a passion for flying, a positive attitude, and hard work. Those 3 character qualities will take you a long way in this industry.

You dont have to eat KD for 5 yrs if this is the route you decide for yourself. Its all about the path you take, and there are many pathes to your end goal...whatever it may be.

My 2 cents...good luck in your career choices!

Fly safe all.

[Colonel Sanders]

the time is right if you are looking to break in now

IMHO the time is right if you have 500 hrs NOW.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: what matters is what year
you were born in. Timing is everything. You can't push on a rope.

[Hawkerflyer]

Positive responses here and great advice too! Nice job folks!

[Shiny Side Up]

The no debt advise is the best advise you can be given, followed by having some savings, even the old car isn't bad. Get a decent education or trades school and start making some real money because money means you have choices and savings mean that you have some staying power.

Personally I wouldn't say the no debt would be a hard and fast, if one does some appropriate planning. In the long run taking on a bit of debt to complete flight training in a reasonable time I don't think was a bad choice, but then, I also knew I could pay that off. Having a larger skill set to keep one's self employed outside of aviation certainly helps. Its really about having a decent plan that doesn't hinge on getting employment in your field of training. Debt is not the end of the world and I'd say that its unavoidable if one really wants to advance one's station in life.

[Colonel Sanders]

Debt is not the end of the world

One might have the same sentiments towards genital herpes,
but still, I would put considerable effort into avoiding either.

It's a last resort - not a first option. Debt is a form of voluntary
indentured servitude. You know - slavery.

[Shiny Side Up]

Depends on one's circumstances I suppose. I don't regret going into debt, I am out of it now. It was an assumed risk and in my case it paid off. That didn't mean I took on any that was unnecessary, it was just part of doing business.

To use your crude analogy, to avoid getting genital herpes one should also never have sex. Only if you're willing to risk the herpes are you going to ever have sex. That's not to say one can't mitigate the risks. The same could be said of going in debt. Its always a gamble, but then so is life. You won't get to the end of your life and say "I'm sure glad I saved all this money up" you can't take it with you after all. Just like you won't get to the end of your life saying "I'm sure glad I didn't get the herpes", but you might say "I'm sure glad I had all that sex".

[BEFAN5]

I had debt. My family couldn't afford to may for my flying lessons. I have worked hard my entire life (had to get some loans long the way) and 6 months after completing my CPL I got a job flying a turbine. There were times I thought to myself "what did i get myself into" looking at the bank statements was never fun. Now I am making a comfortable wage, I am paying down my debt, and enjoying life. You are the power of your own destiny. If you want it, you can make it happen. I don't believe in working shit jobs. Do what you love.

[alti2d]

How about looking for a job in the oil patch, for that elusive high-paying, entry level job. If you're willing to travel around for work, making a stop in Fort McMurray and getting a job with one of the companies there may equal good pay, with a rotating schedule that would allow you to work on your flying in the off time. A friend of mine has just done that for himself, stepped out of flying to get a handle on his debt, and will likely be back in it in about 8-12 months. It may be worth researching.

[WileyCoyote]

I agree with the above. Net monthly income on a service rig is around 5 or 6k. Couple months at that and your debt would be gone, keep in mind that usually you only have the minimum 3 days off. If your working two jobs anyway, you probably don't have much time off as it is.