WJA590 CYVR-CYEG Feb 14

[loopa]

I fly commercially a lot and I just had to comment one thing for whomever flew this flight. That side-slip prior to touch down was a kiss of a landing. You can hear the PF was entering it as the Auto Throttle was starting to boost some thrust and the N1's were spooling up just prior to touch down. Needless to say - excellent work!

While a side slip shouldn't be much to boast about these days - I just wanted to comment on how great it was to see you actually pull off a great slide slip.

You guys can correct me if I am wrong, but the more and more airliner's I see these days, they seem to touch down crooked and adjust the alignment on the runway before the nose gear? Maybe it's just technique!

[GGCC]

Very sharp observation loopa and a darn good post.

I appreciate a well executed slip, can't say i've observed a Big Bird executing same.

Must have been nice to see as opposed to endless You-Tube crab landings........

Dave

[yycflyguy]

You can hear the PF was entering it as the Auto Throttle was starting to boost some thrust and the N1's were spooling up just prior to touch down.

So the approach was unstable then. You want the engines spooled up in case of a go-around. If you can't get them spooled up before touchdown the approach was conducted too fast. Useless to have engines at flight idle at minimums if a go-around is required.

Side slip approaches are prohibited on my plane. Kicking in some rudder in the flare is a different from a side slip approach which, I am guessing, was the case.

[Flying Low]

Not quite sure I understand the engines spooling up just prior to touchdown...

I fly the CRJ and 757...in the CRJ100/200 the throttles go to idle pretty quickly through 50 feet, in the CRJ705 the throttles go to idle a little more slowly starting through 50 feet and in the 757 the throttles start coming back from 50 feet with them reaching idle as close to touchdown as possible. Having power on at touchdown will inhibit the ground lift dump (the spoilers all popping up at touchdown) and is one of the factors that lead to the bounce and subsequent heavy landing/gear collapse of a Jazz CRJ100 in YYZ a few years ago.

As for the side slip. In the CRJ there is plenty of room to keep the aircraft straight and land banked into a crosswind. The 757 was a little more restrictive...I believe a landing with a only slip was possible up to 17 knots (90 degree crosswind). Beyond that you needed to crab into the crosswind as well or you risked hitting the engine and/or outboard flap.

[loopa]

Hey guys,

I want to clarify some things so you guys don't go off bashing something that was executed with absolute perfection - perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my description.

(Using the Geo Nova gps display) we were all established by 1000 feet AGL with what looked like Flaps 40 / VREF+5 or 10 for the gusts? The engines sounded like they were around 50% N1 on approach? The approach was very stable and I would say about 5 seconds prior to crossing the runway threshold you could slowly feel the body yaw to the right and the aileron in a left hand fashion with the spoilers slightly up. The airplane entered the flare and as it entered the flare the N1 started creeping up for sure as it sounded like around 60% where you start getting the "khhhhhhhhh" noise from the jet engines. Now I'm assuming they were still on A/T with their VREF bugged which is what it was trying to maintain? I could be wrong.

Moments prior to touch down the "khhhhh" went silent (engine spooled down) and we touched down with a greaser on the 1500 foot markers (bang on). No reverse thrust, just spoilers and we rolled to A4 and exited at the end of Runway 30.

Hope this explains my experience a bit better.

Once again - perfectly executed and I couldn't have been more satisfied sitting at 15 on the 737-600 where you would feel the shock of the landing even if it was a greaser.

[share-once]

(Using the Geo Nova gps display)

For your comfort and safety all your electronics must be turned off or a side slip may occur and a "khhhhhhhhh" noise from the jet engines.
Erratic auto throttle behaviour is also a possibility, which could result in an impressive landing.

[True North]

Several points here;

Most swept wing, underslung jet airliners are supposed to be landed in the crab, including the 737. Not the smoothest technique but that is what the manufacturer advocates.

A/T should be off well before the flare, unless it is an autoland but last I checked YEG did not have CAT II. According to the Boeing Flight Crew Training manual; "After the flare is initiated, smoothly retard the thrust levers to idle..." so thrust should not be increasing during the flare unless you have let the speed bleed off to below ref.

At least idle reverse is mandatory on every landing.

A "greaser" is also not the Boeing recommended touchdown, although everyone pretty much ignores that one when there is lots of runway.

Sounds to me like although the outcome was desirable, the landing was not executed according Boeing recommended procedures which leads me to believe it was also not according to WJ SOP.

[loopa]

Here I was trying to give them guys a pat on the back and they get slayed.

I didn't know that about WJA sops. I thought it was airline technique to keep it crabbed and just kick in rudder prior to touch down.

[Biff]

Several points here;

Most swept wing, underslung jet airliners are supposed to be landed in the crab, including the 737. Not the smoothest technique but that is what the manufacturer advocates.

Reread the Boeing Flight Crew Training manual for the 737. Page 6.45 indicates the three methods of performing crosswind landings. 1. De-Crab during flare, 2. Touchdown in Crab and 3. Sideslip.

I haven't found a quote in the manual that says one is preferable to another, just that with a crosswind component of over 20kts at flaps 30 or 23 knots at flaps 40 a sideslip only(zero crab) landing is not recommended.

If you could reference your statement that the 737 is supposed to be landed in the crab I would love to see it.

[jjj]

Just a small point here...

Do not kick the rudder please. One presses rudder smoothly and steadily as required to achieve desired result.

Edited to remove a statement that used the word "never."

Never say never.


JJJ

[True North]

Several points here;

Most swept wing, underslung jet airliners are supposed to be landed in the crab, including the 737. Not the smoothest technique but that is what the manufacturer advocates.

Reread the Boeing Flight Crew Training manual for the 737. Page 6.45 indicates the three methods of performing crosswind landings. 1. De-Crab during flare, 2. Touchdown in Crab and 3. Sideslip.

I haven't found a quote in the manual that says one is preferable to another, just that with a crosswind component of over 20kts at flaps 30 or 23 knots at flaps 40 a sideslip only(zero crab) landing is not recommended.

If you could reference your statement that the 737 is supposed to be landed in the crab I would love to see it.

You are absolutely correct, the FCTM addresses all three techniques. When I did my training at Boeing the instructors were very clear that the preferred method was to land crabbed. That is why I stated it was "advocated". Too many wing tip scrapes is what I was told. Which might be addressed by jjj's comment about kicking the rudder.

[Jastapilot]

*sigh*

[Jastapilot]

There are 3 approved techniques in the Boeing manual. I don't give a damn 'who' prefers 'what'. Land the damn plane safely and keep the damn plane airworthy. The rest is fluff.

[rapid602]

Some passanger trying to give his pilots a " That a boy " for a good landing.

Please NOT WRITE ANYTHING if you have a bad landing.

Glad to hear you had a good ride. Congrats to the crew who have happy passengers.

I dropped one on the runway one night in Winnipeg, and when we taxied in, I told the passengers that Captain #$%, was sorry for the rough landing, and he hopes it does not stop you from flying with #$% airlines in the future. The captain and I laughed about it for a year.

[BEFAN5]

My favourite was after a rough landing in Honolulu on the LDA for runway 26L? I think that is the one... If they even still have it. Flight attendant came on and said "Welcome to PHNL. We apologize for the rough landing, but the captain insisted on letting one of your cabin crew try and land this bird"... It wasn't WJ.

I seem to be jinxed when it comes to my first flight with a captain whom I haven't flown with before. They tend to be thumpers. ha

Personally, I wouldn't ever post a date and flight number in a post because if replies like this DO surface, it is opening the door for someone to check their intranet (or whatever it is called) and see who flew this non-sop landing... (if it was one). On the positive side of things... I do not think a passengers observation of how they think something went down would lead to any sort of disciplinary action. Only two people and a blackbox know what the engines N1 was at and with what control inputs etc.

Good work on the nice landing. The funny things about this forum, is that I could wish someone a Happy Birthday in a post and have 50 avcaners jumping down my throat.

[loopa]

I was more so just trying to thank them if they hang out at these boards.

All the best to everybody!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Best landing I ever saw was when I was on an old Canadian 732 flown by a pair of X EPA grey hairs going to the rock one nasty winter night. The crosswind was so strong that I could see both sets of runway lights from my 4A seat on final and decrabbing required a huge yaw with the exact instant the yaw stopped a firm but smooth touchdown on the upwind mainwheels, followed by a very short pause then the down wind wheels and finally the nose wheel on what looked to me like the exact centre line of the runway.

[Biff]

Several points here;

Most swept wing, underslung jet airliners are supposed to be landed in the crab, including the 737. Not the smoothest technique but that is what the manufacturer advocates.

Reread the Boeing Flight Crew Training manual for the 737. Page 6.45 indicates the three methods of performing crosswind landings. 1. De-Crab during flare, 2. Touchdown in Crab and 3. Sideslip.

I haven't found a quote in the manual that says one is preferable to another, just that with a crosswind component of over 20kts at flaps 30 or 23 knots at flaps 40 a sideslip only(zero crab) landing is not recommended.

If you could reference your statement that the 737 is supposed to be landed in the crab I would love to see it.

You are absolutely correct, the FCTM addresses all three techniques. When I did my training at Boeing the instructors were very clear that the preferred method was to land crabbed. That is why I stated it was "advocated". Too many wing tip scrapes is what I was told. Which might be addressed by jjj's comment about kicking the rudder.

On my next landing maybe I'll try advocating your method with the guy I'm flying with. It'll go something like this, "I don't care what the flight training manual says, some guy on avcanada had some guy tell him years ago that Boeing wants us to land in a crab, so that's what we will do!!!"

I'm kidding of course, that would be a ridiculous thing to say!!

Nothing about the OP's post sounded like there was anything done against SOP's. I'm sure it was probably idle reverse, which is permitted, and good airmenship should dictate that if, for whatever reason, the rate of descent on final is undesirable, you try to arrest it by adding a little power.

I can't find a reference that says that is not permitted.