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Wacko
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:10 pm 
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... what is industry standard pay for an FO on the above? I'm guessing Ontario is probably different than say Saskatchewan...

Thanks


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skylark172
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:49 pm 
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I'd venture a guess of 35k to 45k a year, though there is not much flying involved (200 hours)

Liked the add, it was the most personal one I have seen.

The real question is.....what are the hour requirements? There are lot of guys with CPLs and multi engine endorsements around that have their As written.

Does anyone have info on this company? Sounds like a tight group that doesn't go outside to hire very often.


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AJV
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:57 pm 
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They had an ad up awhile ago, very similar to this one. Just love this guys style, very original, doesn't use the cookie cutter.


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CL-Skadoo!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Location: Intensity in Ten Cities.
AJV wrote:
doesn't use the cookie cutter.


Right up until you discuss the paycheque, then we bake cookies. Still a fine job for a lower time, single individual; plus you could do far worse at the north end of Pearson.


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AJV
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:24 pm 
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CL-Skadoo! wrote:
AJV wrote:
doesn't use the cookie cutter.


Right up until you discuss the paycheque, then we bake cookies. Still a fine job for a lower time, single individual; plus you could do far worse at the north end of Pearson.


Does that mean you know the pay scale? Is it below standards? Care to elaborate?


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Sulako
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Industry standard @ YYZ is around 40-50k for a light jet F/o.


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Wacko
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Thank you.


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Rowdy
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Sulako, beautifully articulate! Gives me a real kick every time I read your posts and those ads.

Don't take offence to any of the comments from the troglodyte peanut gallery ;)

40-50k as a light jet FO? Thats not a bad pay check if you ask me


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ScudRunner
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:04 pm 
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why did you have to bring religion into this Rowdy? :butthead:
I pay 500!


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skylark172
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:16 pm 
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CL-Skadoo! wrote:
AJV wrote:
doesn't use the cookie cutter.


Right up until you discuss the paycheque, then we bake cookies. Still a fine job for a lower time, single individual; plus you could do far worse at the north end of Pearson.



So when you say lower time, do you have any idea? 2000 hours?


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Sulako
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:28 pm 
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In corporate flying, a positive attitude and an ability to think for themselves is generally more important than overall time. That being said, if the plane only flies a couple of hundred hours a year then it might not be the best fit for a 200 hour pilot, as it would be ages and ages before they acquired enough time to get their ATPL and go Captain. From what I know, C550's aren't very complicated airplanes and don't take a whole lot of time to master, so the question of boredom as a 'permanent' FO might be a consideration. A really low-time pilot would likely have to have a very convincing argument as to why they would want to take a job that would keep them in the right seat for many years.


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BverLuver
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:39 am 
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Good points Sulako and if one considers that they are part of a crew vs. Being "just a co-pilot" the seat they occupy and how long they occupy it for should not matter. A good 1000hr pilot with the head screwed on right could make an excellent long term f/o. It happens at Big Red with 3000-4000hr pilots why not a corporate department?

BL


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loopa
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:04 am 
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Had a chat with the ops manager when they were hiring last time, really great person to be honest. Like mentioned in the advertisement, you are given information right to the point. No wishy washy details.

As for people wondering what experience levels they were talking to, I was applying with 600 hours and was being considered, I knew of a girl around 900 hours that was being considered, and if I'm not mistaken, they ended up hiring somebody with a current type rating on the plane.

Putting it into perspective however, while it seems like a fun atmosphere to work in, for a 900 hour pilot to see the left seat they would need to fly for about 2200 hours to ever meet the minimum requirements for the ATPL. 2200 hrs at 200 hrs / yr = 11 years flying for this operator. So while it's wishful thinking that you guys may be talking about an upgrade "1 to 2" years after being hired, if you're a low timer, you probably won't have the patience to sit at 50K/yr spending more time typing op company operations revisions than flying, just so you can be in the left seat of a private jet flying 200 hrs / year again.

So if you do take this job, you are either planning on staying there for a very long time, or getting some jet time and moving on - and if the latter is your intention you probably lack researching skills because there are operator's who fly jets and will hire you to fly way many more hours than that. Perhaps not at 600 hours though. But then again, where would the appreciation levels be for the 600 hour wonder if they never had to put on engine covers with -50 degree windchill as they scurry over to the travel lodge for minimum rest period for a split duty day that started at 959PM. :lol:

Hopefully these are some things people consider when they apply there - it certainly won't be a place where you fly a jet and then get a call from WestJet. You don't fly enough.

All the best to every body who applies 8)


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Sky_Conqueror
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:25 am 
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As I'm sure the company email box is getting flooded by the minute as we speak, It would be to debate wether a high time pilot (1500-3000 TT+....etc etc) would decide to accept this job. Most individuals having gained such hours are within the boundaries of interest of most regional and major airlines (better pay, bigger machines). My two cents, and my personal point of view if I may; I have a hard time picturing a pilot having 2000 hours that got into the habit of flying 900 to 1000 hours a year, getting his workload reduced to 200 hours a year. Sure, if that individual is desperate for a position due to the bank account getting lower every day and no job (I highly would doubt that today as everyone is hiring). Then this could be seen as a temporary job for that person. This guy is probably going to last 4 months until a bigger opportunity shows up.
I see this job opportunity fit for the two extremities of an individuals career. First, the low time pilot (250 hours +) who is eager and ready to stay for a few years. That is not going to complain, bitch and moan in regards to conditions (Hey, ur flying a damn jet man!). And finally the career-ending individual who has gained a couple of thousand of hours; tired of getting up at 3am in the morning flying 9 hours + a day, wants a laid back schedule ...at his age. If I had 4000 hours....I would look for bigger game!


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Lurch
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:11 am 
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:shock: You have a lot to learn about this industry Sky.

As a 4000hr+ pilot I would consider this job, if I was looking and wanted to live in YYZ. :wink:

Sky not everybody wants the airlines or the big iron but a great schedule, home every night and work with/for somebody who treats you like a person not a number.

I went back and read your other 15 posts and you are going down a long bitter road and I doubt you will ever be happy with your career.

Good luck

Lurch


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Sky_Conqueror
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:19 am 
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Really? Its really funny because most people having 4000 hours, at that level, consider wanting a good salary position. At 4000 + an individual could be looking at a right seat job payed 65k +. Why would one downshift to half the salary he could get. There are things called Mortgages, debts, a life, family, that are also connected to Home ever night and a schedule. And your comment of ''a person that treats you like a number'', well, make a choice. You can't have everything in life, especially in aviation! We now live in an economy that regards first profit... and individuals after.


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BverLuver
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:45 am 
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The 65k + jobs available may not be in a desirable, or in a city far away from friends or family or offer the same schedule or lifestyle this one seems to offer. If someone lives relatively near to YYZ, this could be a very desirable position regardless of experience level.


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Lurch
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:57 am 
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Sky_Conqueror wrote:
Really? Its really funny because most people having 4000 hours, at that level, consider wanting a good salary position. At 4000 + an individual could be looking at a right seat job payed 65k +. Why would one downshift to half the salary he could get. There are things called Mortgages, debts, a life, family, that are also connected to Home ever night and a schedule. And your comment of ''a person that treats you like a number'', well, make a choice. You can't have everything in life, especially in aviation! We now live in an economy that regards first profit... and individuals after.


Well you are in for a sour surprise in a few years when you try to move onto Jazz, AC, or WJ, How much do you think they pay their first year FOs?

Oh I can have everything, you find those certain corporate gigs and you can have all of that. I rarely have to stay out of town on weekends but when I do 9 times out of 10 I'm allowed to bring the wife and kid. When's the last time an airline pilot got taken out by the CEO, anywhere? My wife and I have been taken on their Yacht, fishing trips, Vegas and Mexico, But corporate is a bottom end job just keep telling yourself that and stay far away, we wouldn't want everybody finding how good the benefits can be. Just keep chasing metal.

Like I said before you have a lot to learn and you are in for a long bitter career.


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rapid602
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Hey Lurch check your PM I sent you two Private Messages.

I would appreciate hearing from you.


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rapid602
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:03 pm 
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I find all of the posts in here very interesting. In todays economy and times are a changing very quickliy. Its about the money. Its always about the money. Corporate Jets are business tools. If the owner of a business, could do business on Skype, rather than buy, lease or rent a jet to go to a meeting because he only has 6 hours in a day to get it done then he would. Corporate Aviation is a fascinating animal. Very very expensive to operate, and to keep flying. Pilots are only one aspect of operating a Corporate Jet. Thats why there are companies today who just operate jets for other companies. Years ago that was never the case. There are companies realizing it is cheaper to charter than it is to own or operate a flight department. Some of the posts in here need to look at Corporate Aviation as a career path, just like an Airline Job is a Career Path. Like Lurch said we are all not after the Big Iron Jobs. Different City every day, doing your own flight planning, arranging your own customs, seeing different parts of the world, sitting in a pilots lounge for hours and hours, but flying something that makes you smile. Its not always watch makes you rich, its doing what you want to do, because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. But it always comes down to the money.
I worked for a company, who shut down over money, Flying on Saturday and bankrupt on Monday. I had an interview for a company who was getting a 601 in March and in April there was no flight department.

If you have 600 hours and want to fly Corporate Jets then good for you, 3000 hours and want to fly Corporate Jets, Good for you.

If a company has 3 planes, pays you a decent salary, say's good morning to you when you show up, doesn't ask why there is a pen on your expense account, gives you benefits for your family, and doesn't make you sleep at the roach hotel. Sounds like a good company. Why do the lower time pilots alway beat these things to death. I just read a job posting for a company looking for F/O on an Metro for $21,500 per year plus per diem. WOW

OH Yeah someone said " Flying a jet man" or something close to it. Flying a C550 is like flying a Cessna 172 with Turbines on it. If your flying a C550 and you got 500 hours God Bless you, at least your on the inside of the fence. Because most of the people leaning against the fence when your walking into work want to be YOU.

I hope all of you, find a job that makes you say ... You love your job. and I work for the best company in aviation.

Or at least think you do. Good Luck to all of you .... fly safe.


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Sulako
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Corporate can be a great lifestyle, but it depends on what you are looking for. I fly a light jet for a corporate employer and I haven't moved from my job in 7 years because I have it really good here. My job isn't about time building, it's about time off, flying to interesting (and sometimes boring) places, flying decent well-maintained equipment and making enough money to live indoors while I do all that. Obviously some other pilots have different priorities - some pilots want to fly the heaviest plane they can, some pilots want to fly the most number of hours they can, and some want to make the most money they can. I don't fly a GV, I don't fly very often and I don't make 200k/year, but I'm home almost every night and my 4-month-old son knows who I am. Those are my priorities, and I'm happy with the compromises I have made in order to satisfy them. Clearly the advertised jobs are not for everyone, but I assume that a responsible person thinks for a few minutes to decide what's important to them before hitting the Send button on the ol' resume. Just my 2 pennies.


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rapid602
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Sulako ... your 2 pennies are worth $10

I used to have to go away for 6 weeks at a time. You come home and you little girl who you spend 6 weeks thinking about while you gone comes up to you and pulls your hand off of your mothers knee, because she forgot who you are ....

When you can go to work, do something you enjoy ( GET PAID FOR IT ) get paid well, like what you do, who you do it for, and you are home for dinner more than you are away, is a win win. Does it matter if it has props, or pushes, if it has two engines or three, is red or blue. Does it really matter???

When your standing in Northern Ontario at an airport with an outhouse and your wife is at dance lessons with your daughter or soccer or whatever. Does it really matter. The stuff we do and put up with to be a part of aviation comes with a cost in everything we do. It is better to give up a little $$$ to be happy and home at night then, getting divorced and paying you dues for many many many years. I would rather spend a night with my wife than my co-pilot any night. The night I spent my wedding anniversary with my co-pilot instead of my wife wasn't that much fun.

Sulako .... Well Said.


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Cough Syrup
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:29 pm 
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Sulako wrote:
Corporate can be a great lifestyle, but it depends on what you are looking for. I fly a light jet for a corporate employer and I haven't moved from my job in 7 years because I have it really good here. My job isn't about time building, it's about time off, flying to interesting (and sometimes boring) places, flying decent well-maintained equipment and making enough money to live indoors while I do all that. Obviously some other pilots have different priorities - some pilots want to fly the heaviest plane they can, some pilots want to fly the most number of hours they can, and some want to make the most money they can. I don't fly a GV, I don't fly very often and I don't make 200k/year, but I'm home almost every night and my 4-month-old son knows who I am. Those are my priorities, and I'm happy with the compromises I have made in order to satisfy them. Clearly the advertised jobs are not for everyone, but I assume that a responsible person thinks for a few minutes to decide what's important to them before hitting the Send button on the ol' resume. Just my 2 pennies.



Exactly. Work to live...don't live to work.


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learcapt
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:04 am 
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Sorry to say it, but pretty unprofessional ad.


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skylark172
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:18 am 
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learcapt wrote:
Sorry to say it, but pretty unprofessional ad.


But it showed some personality!! Truthfully I believe it was a calculated move on the part of Algonquin to see who would answer originally and fit their style. I am sure not everyone appreciated it, but I did.

What makes you say that?


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