Flight instructing vs Working the ramp. Doesn't add up?

[Flightman7]

Thanks a lot Kag and Loopa, Ill be the first to admit Im and idiot when it comes to aviation. I wasnt aware of atpl and contrail requirments. Knowing what I know now I feel pretty stupid

Anyways, its been worth the embarrassment as this has potentially helped me avoid putting myself in a bad spot. So thanks again.

Flightman7

[Tom H]

Sorry hit the wrong button!

[loopa]

Working the ramp for the right company is a great way to get to fly the line.
Take North Wright Air in Norman wells, they hire a ton of rampies and promote no time guys to the fleet of single pistons, over time you move up to multi turbine.
As many have pointed out getting PIC time is key, and without it you can get stuck.

Case in point I went the instructor route and it got me onto a king air. By the time I had 2500 I already had ATPL (had that by 1550 hours) 700 PIC on the king air where some of my FO's had 2500 hours and no PIC and no ATPL.

There is really no right or wrong way to build time and there isn't one type of flying that will completely build a solid resume. A good variety of flying and locations will open different doors.
You may get lucky and find a company that does it all, or you may need to make a few moves.
Either way do not base your education choices on an extremely small chance of getting on with a specific company.

+1

It seems to me that the opportunities for instructor's (even though the first couple of years is spent in the circuit and what is biased to be flying in blue sky conditions) roll about with a bit more confidence than for rampies. As an instructor you are paying your dues for a right seat, most likely on a turbine twin. After a year or two you are now going to be captain on that turbine twin because of primarily two things: you have PIC time from instructing, and you have 703/704 experience to take on a leadership role in that job. Flying around for a year or 2 on that turbine will most likely land you a Jet job or a transport category turboprop job. Do either or in the right seat for a bit, then left seat for a bit, then you start getting recognized by the airlines.

This is only ONE of many routes for candidates like instructors, but it seems to be the most common route instructor's take. On average the time from Instructing to the right seat at WJA/AC takes 5-7 years. While it might take longer, you enter the airline world with a well rounded aviation career. All cause of that significant PIC time you gathered in a 172? Pretty valuable stuff when you look at your career for the long term.

Yes, the Rampie and the Instructor might see the same WJA g/s, but which of the two has more command time reflecting responsibility to save his/her butt? In more cases than not, the instructor.

This is my opinion - there are people who will slug me across the board for ever daring to say that instructing is the way to go, because to them the northern flying is where the real learning and real flying exists. To each his own.

Cheers

[Flightman7]

It seems to me that the opportunities for instructor's (even though the first couple of years is spent in the circuit and what is biased to be flying in blue sky conditions) roll about with a bit more confidence than for rampies. As an instructor you are paying your dues for a right seat, most likely on a turbine twin. After a year or two you are now going to be captain on that turbine twin because of primarily two things: you have PIC time from instructing, and you have 703/704 experience to take on a leadership role in that job. Flying around for a year or 2 on that turbine will most likely land you a Jet job or a transport category turboprop job. Do either or in the right seat for a bit, then left seat for a bit, then you start getting recognized by the airlines.

This is only ONE of many routes for candidates like instructors, but it seems to be the most common route instructor's take. On average the time from Instructing to the right seat at WJA/AC takes 5-7 years. While it might take longer, you enter the airline world with a well rounded aviation career. All cause of that significant PIC time you gathered in a 172? Pretty valuable stuff when you look at your career for the long term.

This is incredibly helpful to me I cant thank you enough. I've always been looking to find some sort of a play by play of the ladder in aviation starting from instructing. I've never seen intructing in such a positive light, fantastic insight.

Thanks again

[KAG]

Flightman7
Your in grade 11? Trust me your ahead of the curve. I went into this blind only knowing that this is what I want to do. in this industry you learn to roll with the punches. You can plan your entire career from PPL to which airline you want to end up at and I guarantee your best laid plans will end up the same place your first bottle of rum will end up - down the sh!ter.

Have you taken any flights yet? If not head off to your local flying club and get an intro flight, see if this is really for you. Maybe try to get your next summer job at the airport, get some exposure to aviation.

Good luck.

[Double Wasp]

Flightman,

While free advice is usually worth what you pay for it here is mine anyway.

The main issue that I have with instructing to build time after completing your CPL is the fact that you are in effect still learning your trade while you are teaching someone else. 200 hrs difference is not a big deal when you are talking about someone who has 2400 training someone who has 2200 hour. A whole different story when a 200 hour instructor is training someone with 0.

When you complete your CPL the learning curve is very steep and it is very beneficial to have your first job where you gain experience from someone who is sitting beside your rather than having to do it all on your own. There still will be times when you get nervous once you are a captain as stuff does happen however, the well of experience that you will have to draw from is far deeper after having the benefit of sitting beside someone who has seen the issues before.

There is no right or wrong way. There are as many ways to get through this career as there are pilots flying. The choices you make have to be right for you, not anyone else. Just try to remember that life is about the journey and the stories that you will be telling your grandchildren one day. The most important thing is to get the job done as safely as possible so you are around to tell those stories.

Cheers
DW

Edited for relevance

[Colonel Sanders]

on the subject of FO time counting half towards ATPL ...

Look at FAA FAR part 61.159: http://tinyurl.com/7axgonc

I don't see anything there about FO time counting half towards
an FAA ATP. Does anyone else?

All it says is:

(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:

(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.

[Slats]

/

[Flightman7]

There is no right or wrong way. There are as many ways to get through this career as there are pilots flying. The choices you make have to be right for you, not anyone else. Just try to remember that life is about the journey and the stories that you will be telling your grandchildren one day. The most important thing is to get the job done as safely as possible so you get home to tell those stories.

Cheers
DW

What a great way to look at life. Thanks for the post and advice.

Step 4: Email, voice mail, snail mail, teletype and otherwise alert these operators to your existence and desire to work there. Pester them just enough that they will know who you are but not so much that they begin to wish ill upon you. Once this is done plan a way to get some face time in (search "road trip" on this site). If you get face time, this is good-you're doing it right.

Step 5: Get hired. If you are hired to fly a C-172, C-185, C-206 while also working ramp/dock/dispatch-this is good. You're doing it right.

Similar ideas have been outlines by James ball The author of "So you want to be a pilot eh". It appears you certainly know the ins and outs of the industry. This is a fairly unique and well thought out path and I will be sure to incorporate your tips into my career. Thanks alot for the advice, and informing me of TC operators search, I hadn't found that yet. Dont ask me how.

[loopa]

While slats has a point about instructing being left to the ones in the know (I fully support that idea, but for that idea to fall through you need an aviation industry that supports it with a hierarchy of career progression) I can honestly say that I really enjoyed my instructing days and I found it to really improve my outlook on not only aviation, but self-improvement, two crew coordination, safety & risk assessment, hands and feet, theory, etc and etc. Like mentioned several times, there's not one way to do it, hence why Slats way is certainly not the only way to grant aviation success - certainly one of the better ones when evaluating the logging of PIC time versus SIC.

Ultimately, chase the pilot in command hours and when you have that, chase the quality pilot in command hours (turbine, ifr, above 12,577lb aircraft, etc), and once you have a bit of that, chase the life style you want - not the airline, air plane, destinations, and etc.

Cheers

[Flightman7]

Yeah I definitely have to agree with you. There is a large hierarchy of progression from instructing. During the couple times I went for an intro I was thinking man if I could do this everyday life would be amazing. It builds some of the best hands and feet aside from way up north, gets you the elusive ATPL quite fast and is ultimately a job that many seem to reflect back on as some damn good times.

Ultimately, chase the pilot in command hours and when you have that, chase the quality pilot in command hours (turbine, ifr, above 12,577lb aircraft, etc), and once you have a bit of that, chase the life style you want - not the airline, air plane, destinations, and etc.

Cheers

This is to live by Thanks again loopa you've been a huge help.

[L1011]

Wow, there is a lot of good info here for ya Flightman.

That being said, a few posters have mentioned to you that you are putting the cart before the horse a bit. Don't get me wrong, it's fantastic that you are so enthusiastic and ambitious about a career in aviation but I think at your stage you should be more focused on how to get your training done. Have you done research and picked out a flight school/college yet?

Trust me, I had the same kinds of ideas when I was nearing the end of my training as to how I would get in to the industry...and as it turns out, I have gone down a path that I had not envisioned in any way whatsoever. There are a lot of factors that are out of your control too. Talk to guys that got their CPL signed off on September 10th, 2001 or after a stock market crash. As Big Pistons Forever said, at that point any job in aviation is better than no job. In fact, it was the non-flying jobs in aviation on my resume that really helped me get my current flying job. Not to mention that I took a great deal of experience out of those jobs while earning money towards paying for more training.

As for flight instructing versus working the ramp, they each have their benefits. But I'm sure you'll find that once you really start job-hunting as you near the end of your training you'll see that the best idea would be to go for the best opportunity available to you at that time. As far as ATPL requirements, you can cross that bridge when you get there.

Best of luck!

[172pilot]

Sounds like the ultimate combination is a ramp/office job with good 703/704 company - along with instructing on the weekends.

[loopa]

As far as ATPL requirements, you can cross that bridge when you get there.

Only true to some extent. There are certain requirements that are very hard to achieve if you don't keep an eye on them. The big one being the 25 hours PIC XC night requirement.

25 x 200/hr (on the bold side) for a C172 works out to be roughly 5000 dollars needed to be put aside to meet that requirement.

It's good that a guy like Flightman is educating himself (as much as possible on these boards) of what to expect, and as for the route he pursues, you're bang on - each route has its own benefits.

But don't totally ignore the requirements you are forced to face, because if it's too late you may need to pay off some more debt.

[Colonel Sanders]

200/hr for a C172

That's crazy! I'll rent you a 172 with new paint, new interior and
new avionics for $120/hr, fuel included, commercial registered
(CAR 406 FTU OC) and maintained.

No airport fees, no NavCan fees, no fuel surcharge, no insurance
surcharge, no waiting to taxi, no control tower or FSS hassle.

4000 foot paved runway with arcal lights and papi, 2 instrument
approaches and 24 hour self-serve fuel. You can fly all day and
all night, just like a renter did last summer to finish off her ATPL
in a matter of days, after I checked her out.

Only drawback is that there are multiple biplanes and russian jets
doing surface-level aerobatics. Occasionally the runway will briefly
go IFR from the smoke.

[Beefitarian]

200/hr for a C172

That's crazy! I'll rent you a 172 with new paint, new interior and
new avionics for $120/hr, fuel included, commercial registered
(CAR 406 FTU OC) and maintained.

No airport fees, no NavCan fees, no fuel surcharge, no insurance
surcharge, no waiting to taxi, no control tower or FSS hassle.

4000 foot paved runway with arcal lights and papi, 2 instrument
approaches and 24 hour self-serve fuel. You can fly all day and
all night, just like a renter did last summer to finish off her ATPL
in a matter of days, after I checked her out.

Only drawback is that there are multiple biplanes and russian jets
doing surface-level aerobatics. Occasionally the runway will briefly
go IFR from the smoke.

Can you start up a sattelite location for this at CEF4 please?

[loopa]

200/hr for a C172

That's crazy! I'll rent you a 172 with new paint, new interior and
new avionics for $120/hr, fuel included, commercial registered
(CAR 406 FTU OC) and maintained.

No airport fees, no NavCan fees, no fuel surcharge, no insurance
surcharge, no waiting to taxi, no control tower or FSS hassle.

4000 foot paved runway with arcal lights and papi, 2 instrument
approaches and 24 hour self-serve fuel. You can fly all day and
all night, just like a renter did last summer to finish off her ATPL
in a matter of days, after I checked her out.

Only drawback is that there are multiple biplanes and russian jets
doing surface-level aerobatics. Occasionally the runway will briefly
go IFR from the smoke.

So there is money in flight training is what you're suggesting LOL!

['CauseTheCaravanCan]

I'll try to keep this short, 'cause I want Flightman7 to read the whole post.

I'm glad Slats said what I was thinking, you don't HAVE to instruct OR work the ramp when you graduate.
Find small operators with what's called "Open Pilot Clauses" It means insurance
companies let the owner decide who flies their plane, #of hours doesn't apply at entry level.
(search it on AvCanada, there are other forums naming a few of them in NWONT and MB.)
Go work for one of them, straight onto a forklift and occasional PIC 206 or 207 gig.
This isn't some magical idea either, it REALLY does exist, and they hire new guys every spring.

Oh and one other thing, and I'm glad you're asking these questions before you start flight training,
the guys I work with now are all kicking themselves in the ass for not doing
more of their cross country time building at night, it doesn't cost anything extra and you'll save yourself a real headache.
Get the 25 night cross country PIC required for your ATPL while in school.
That'll be the only hang up you'll face later, if you're hoping one day for the airlines.

Good luck man!

[Flightman7]

Thanks a lot, yet another thing I wasn't aware of, night rating requirements. Cant thank you all enough, the one great thing the industry still has is great pilots who are great people (for the most part that is). No need to keep em short or anything like that, I read it all start to finish. I have been doing research on and off since grade 10 and just talked to an air Canada new hire over the phone last weekend who filled me on some stuff as well. That in conjunction with all you great guys on here has gotten me enough knowledge to truly know if I want a career as a pilot, Its no longer a pipe dream--as it is for many my age, two of which I know. I cant wait to get started in the industry, despite the drastic sacrifice that has to be made for the first ten or so years. Its not all that bad however, nothings for free, and a dream job is no exception.

[tester]

As well as sifting through all the detailed information this thread has produced, don't forget to keep in mind the BIG PICTURE also. Like any other industry, aviation works on pretty much the same principles of supply and demand for its HR needs. The demand is what the operators need in terms of number, experience and skills of their pilots; and the supply side are the pilots looking for jobs. Unfortunately, it's often very difficult for the supply of new guys to get the required minimum experience. Take a look at the job postings on AvCanada and most will have minimum flight hours requirements for Total Time (TT) and often for Multi and Multi PIC. Whichever route you take, you are most unlikely to meet the Multi and Multi-PIC minima when the time comes to apply for that first flight deck position. So what can you do about it?

Well, if you are working the ramp (or dispatch/office) and did your research thoroughly, you will be with an outfit that has ways of getting their new pilots the experience required; Sunwest or North Cariboo, for example, have such schemes, but others may not, so make sure you research the market well, before taking a ground post in the hope of going flying one day.

If you've gone down the Flight Instructor route instead and spend a couple of years at an FTU you will probably meet the TT requirements, but still be way short on Multi-time for most job postings. So don't expect to get a flying job around the popular locations. Look at places where most people don't want to be and the chances are that you will find a post where you do meet the requirements. Commit yourself to spending a couple of years there and you will gain the experience required to move somewhere else subsequently, if that is your wish.

Basically, the BIG PICTURE is that, as a newbie commercial pilot, you should expect to work hard, somewhere you would rather not be, and to be paid a pittance for it. I'm sure that's not how flight crew would wish it to be, but that is the reality of the situation at the moment and probably still will be when you go looking for your first job in the industry.