Flight instructing vs Working the ramp. Doesn't add up?

[whipline]

Sorry Loopa, your story about your friend at Sunwing not being upgraded because she lacks PIC is untrue. For an upgrade you need an ATPL, 5000 total time and 2000 on type. I'm also going to wager our minimums for upgrades are close to every other airline in Canada. We have several Captains that went straight out of flight school to the back seat of a 727 then on to Sunwing with virtually no previous PIC time.

Oh, and it doesn't matter what route you take. You'll end up at the same place at almost the same time. Just enjoy the ride

Cheers

[ybwflyguy]

If you've gone down the Flight Instructor route instead and spend a couple of years at an FTU you will probably meet the TT requirements, but still be way short on Multi-time for most job postings. So don't expect to get a flying job around the popular locations. Look at places where most people don't want to be and the chances are that you will find a post where you do meet the requirements. Commit yourself to spending a couple of years there and you will gain the experience required to move somewhere else subsequently, if that is your wish.

Basically, the BIG PICTURE is that, as a newbie commercial pilot, you should expect to work hard, somewhere you would rather not be, and to be paid a pittance for it. I'm sure that's not how flight crew would wish it to be, but that is the reality of the situation at the moment and probably still will be when you go looking for your first job in the industry.

Best advice I've read for a long time. If you take the instructor option it will get you the PIC time, but as lots of guys are finding out these days 1500hrs with 100 or so Multi means squat! As has been said on here many times, whether you go the ramp route or instruct it's likely after 5 years or so you'll be in a similar job whichever way. From what I've seen in the past year, Borek and Courtesy both seem to be two companies offering fairly rapid progression from the ramp/office to flying. Good luck!

[Flightman7]

Just curious, anything else required to get a ramp/office job besides standard pilot education?

[MIQ]

That's crazy! I'll rent you a 172 with new paint, new interior and
new avionics for $120/hr, fuel included, commercial registered
(CAR 406 FTU OC) and maintained.

No airport fees, no NavCan fees, no fuel surcharge, no insurance
surcharge, no waiting to taxi, no control tower or FSS hassle.

Where do I need to go and where can I sign?

[thegrimm]

Been an interesting read. My 2 cents.

Choose lifestyle. I went the instructor route based solely on this. Wife wouldn't have had it any other way. Think ATPL while in flight school. This will help greatly later on. The 25 hours night XC PIC is the big one. I have always told my students this.

I have been very fortunate and certainly don't take anything for granted. Being at the right place at the right time is one of the main reasons I am where I am today. Got my ATPL at 1500 hours due to making smart choices while instructing. Got a good transport category twin turbine job at 1650 hours. I'm now on my way to the left seat and it should happen quickly. I know of two other instructors who have similar stories to mine. The key while instructing though is getting to teach in a twin. Find a good school which will allow this and work your butt off until it is your time, usually around 1000 hours.

I do agree that the 230 hour green instructor is very inexperienced but he will learn very quickly. I know that I learned much from my instructing days.

I also have friends who seem to be doing well working the ramp at a few local companies. Sunwest, Cariboo, and Borek all seem to be good choices.

Either way, you are young and have lots of time to figure it out. There are no right or wrong answers. Just make sure you enjoy the journey.

[Colonel Sanders]

You must be the one person on this website who doesn't know who/where I am

Send me a PM.

[Flightman7]

Hey colonel your quite an interesting guy, I'd be interested to your your story

[davesok]

I started with a private in high school in 1973. Things were different than but much the same. I have worked with hundreds of F/O's over the years and have always asked them how they got started. The guys I have had the most respect for with regard to ability, work ethic, etc have been the ones that went north. Ones that spent 5000hrs pounding around in the right seat of a C150, well, not cut from the same cloth. Forty years in the business has told me I am not alone in this point of view. Fact is you will learn a lot more .. running in a C185 on floats for your first job than telling a student when to turn a base leg. Most guys that start as instructors, don't wish to leave home and travel 1000 miles to a reserve in northern Ont. There is a job out there for anyone willing to do what it takes to get one. Three years at a desk, to ride around in the right seat of a single pilot airplane, thats better than just about nothing in my option.

My first 600 hours where in the right seat of a C150.!!

[Flightman7]

While i agree 100%, I have talked to many who could care less about their actual skills in comparison to there career progression. While id like to be the best I can be as a pilot, I don't have until I am mid 30s to land a liveable job, and to me, that is in a city wether its calgary, toronto etc I dont care really but id prefer to live in the northern prov I live in Toronto now and it sucks, the general attidtude is me first and im better then you, but thats of topic Back to what I was saying, living in a city with a job that pays a salary to live comfortably on is a good liveable job for me, I don't need much. Im going to do whatever I feel is best for my career at that point in time, not was is best for my skills. Call me out on it, but that's just how I feel. I still like the idea of ramping because it isn't an extra 4-8 grand for the intructer rating and while you don't fly, your still guaranteed a good multi job in 2 years or less on av.

Its all hard as hell to decide, and its hard as hell to be successful in the industry. On top of all that, west jet coming out with a regional, jazz's agreement with air Canada is going to be up in 2020 and sun wing is composed more of European than Canadian pilots, who knows what in store for me there is all sorts of odd things going on. Their calling for pilot shortages, and suppsivly 20% of air canada's pilots will have retired but 2013 By the time is set foot in a plane the industry could be very different, for better or for worse. Well see what happens A new hire at AC told me over the phone ;

AC lost 135 last year
Georgian lost 75
jazz lost 35
Here is something interesting to prove that---

http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Aviati ... ional+Post

Hes worked for all the companies so i'd expect that to be reliable. There is just so many factors that will come in to play in the next 10-20 years that predicting routes and outcomes is next impossible. What worked for you guys 5-10 years ago may not be so great anymore.


BTW, remember im a complete idiot in aviation don't be offended by anything I say, guys like me to guys like you and most other that have helped me.

[Slats]

I have talked to many who could care less about their actual skills in comparison to there career progression......Im going to do whatever I feel is best for my career at that point in time, not was is best for my skills.

That's the spirit! Why waste time getting good at your job? Just chase the big paycheck! After all, a flying career should be about chasing the big paycheck, not devoting yourself to mastering the art of flight and being able to handle your vessel with the utmost precision. That's why god invented computers and stuck them in airplanes anyways! Hopefully you and your future passengers can both take comfort in this attitude.

God help us.

[Flightman7]

First off, all flying jobs make you a better pilot and secondly you can't tell me every job you have taken was for your skills only, not for lifestyle or career progression I mean c'mon let's be realistic here. Oh and thanks for editing out my reasoning as an attempt at making me look like an idiot. Not all of us want to live on almost nothing so we can 'master the art of flying'. Honestly you don't think ten years with shit pay and living conditions in conjuction with flying around in tiny planes in Canadian weather isn't enough mastery to be responsible for your passengers safety? I can almost guarantee you've taken a job that wasn't the best possible option for your skills but all bet it still made you a better pilot

[Colonel Sanders]

Son: when you have 1000 hours, you will have a considerably different opinion about aviation, and will likely cringe at what you wrote here, not unlike what I do every morning when I'm hung over.

[Flightman7]

I really don't think so, I think I'm just realistic. everybody is looking for the job that looks good in there resume not necessarily the job that's best for there skills, why should I be singled out for admitting the reality?

[Slats]

Edited........

Let the race to the bottom resume.

[C-GGGQ]

I don't think flightman posted anything out of line or ill conceived (other than the age old "baby boomers will be retiring soon" that every one of us have heard for the past 10-15 years). Flying a plane is not difficult, and not all of us are acrobatic airshow performers or military fighter pilots. Will my "skill" as an aviator be adversely effected because my first job was a turbine FO instead of a FO on an old Navajo, or a Single pilot on a light twin vs a 206? No, it wont. At any of those jobs I would have done my best, learned my plane and safely flown my passengers around. The important thing to consider when looking for that job is the company. Making sure you are working for a good operator. If you are working for a good operator they will train you well on whatever you are flying, and improve your skill. Saying anything else is just bias in my opinion because it was the way YOU did it. Of course the guy who worked his ass off on a dock in the middle of nowhere to finally get his shot at the 185 feels that anyone who went through anything else didn't learn as much as him. Same as the guy who spent every night after his ramp shift studying the systems of the turbine twin he hoped to fly feels the guy in the 185 had it easy cause he didn't have to memorize 3 tech manuals and a CRM course. As long as both the above pilots flew for people who didn't bend the rules, push weather, weight, fuel, and rest, they both will have come away from either job with the valuable knowledge and skills to safely and professionally do his job. As everyone on here repeatedly states, this industry IS about the journey. However, there are a thousand different variations on that journey, each on of them as viable and important as the next.

[Colonel Sanders]

If money is your primary motivator, you're in the wrong field. Really.
There are plenty of other occupations where you can earn a lot more
money with a lot less pain.

[Chaxterium]

If money is your primary motivator, you're in the wrong field. Really.
There are plenty of other occupations where you can earn a lot more
money with a lot less pain.

Very true.

I wish I could refute it but unfortunately Colonel Sanders is right. Don't get me wrong, I love my job but I have had to make a number of sacrifices to get to where I am and I'm sure many more sacrifices are coming. I haven't seen my girls in 9 weeks. Coming home next week though! Can't wait!

Flightman you seem to certainly have a passion for aviation and that's key in this industry. Not a lot of people can put up with all the crap the comes along with it if they're not passionate about it. My two cents; listen to the people here. I've been in this industry for a good number of years now and still a lot of the people on this forum, and in this thread for that matter, have probably forgotten more about aviation than I'll ever learn. Never turn away an opportunity to listen to someone with more experience than you. Even if you don't agree with that they're saying it will give you a different perspective. Everyone here has something to give and that's how we all learn. I still love picking the brains of old timer pilots and usually end up in awe of how things used to be done. I used to fly with one gent who has more time going backward in a Twin Otter than I have going forward and he always had great stories. I don't know how many times he said "Son, back when I started flying we had one piece of paperwork to fill out. The journey log. That was it! None of this crap!" Needless to say I was his paperwork bitch but that was fine by me. Anyway, the point of my thread is always stay humble to those who have come before you. They obviously know what they're talking about because in this industry you don't last long if you don't know what you're talking about. With that in mind though keep asking questions. Nothing wrong with that.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck with your endeavours,
Chax

[Cat Driver]

Ahhh those were the days before all the paperwork B.S. and rules that have become part of aviation today.

Not only was there very little paperwork to do there were no PPC's needed so we were not one or two trick ponies only able to fly one or two airplanes.

If we could satisfy the chief pilot we could fly a given airplane and our license covered it that was all that was needed.

I had one job where I flew two different helicopters, three different piston engine twins ( Piper Apache, Beech 18, De Havilland Dove. ) and a bunch of different single engine airplanes on a random basis as needed.

The puzzle is how did we do that without all the human factors training all the CRM stuff and all those SOP's that are required today?

[Flightman7]

Will my "skill" as an aviator be adversely effected because my first job was a turbine FO instead of a FO on an old Navajo, or a Single pilot on a light twin vs a 206? No, it wont. At any of those jobs I would have done my best, learned my plane and safely flown my passengers around. The important thing to consider when looking for that job is the company. Making sure you are working for a good operator. If you are working for a good operator they will train you well on whatever you are flying, and improve your skill. Saying anything else is just bias in my opinion because it was the way YOU did it. Of course the guy who worked his ass off on a dock in the middle of nowhere to finally get his shot at the 185 feels that anyone who went through anything else didn't learn as much as him. Same as the guy who spent every night after his ramp shift studying the systems of the turbine twin he hoped to fly feels the guy in the 185 had it easy cause he didn't have to memorize 3 tech manuals and a CRM course. As long as both the above pilots flew for people who didn't bend the rules, push weather, weight, fuel, and rest, they both will have come away from either job with the valuable knowledge and skills to safely and professionally do his job.

Thank you, I agree 100%.

If money is your primary motivator, you're in the wrong field. Really.
There are plenty of other occupations where you can earn a lot more
money with a lot less pain.

Money is by far not my primary motivator, Im expecting to make low wages and im fine with it as long as it allows for comfortable living, which may not always be the case, but I think that is more up to the individual and who he/she is willing to work for and or do in order to progress.

Even if you don't agree with that they're saying it will give you a different perspective. Everyone here has something to give and that's how we all learn. I still love picking the brains of old timer pilots and usually end up in awe of how things used to be done.

the point of my thread is always stay humble to those who have come before you. They obviously know what they're talking about because in this industry you don't last long if you don't know what you're talking about.

I am by no means challenging any of these experienced pilots, I will state yet a again, Im an idiot you guys are the professionals. I just wanted to clear up what I meant by my last post, because I steel feel I am not totally wrong in saying that.

Thanks again to all you guys, and sorry if I've affended, I mean no disrespect, I just want a freindly conversation between Pros and Joes (Me) Im lucky to have the opourtunity to talk to you guys as well, I certainmly dont take it for granted.

[Chaxterium]

Nothing wrong with a healthy discussion.

Cheers,
Chax